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okay so on the agenda then as amended are we agreed any opposed carried on the minutes alderman Chabot thank you worship prepared to move both sets of ministers trip oh very well I'm sorry I thought you said prior to moving them I was waiting for more all right great we've got a seconder on the minutes alderman Curragh and alder and marwa seconding by the way yeah this is just a question pertaining to how we record direct control within the minutes and this probably isn't the right because this isn't a question to these minutes specifically but in the last minutes that we approved in the first sort of meeting of council there was sort of very loose interpretation of a direct control permit that came through that caused some serious issues for one of my community associations that subdivision development appeal board and so what's the procedure for sort of discussing and reviewing how we an allure how we record council specific intent to direct control land-use amendments in the minutes so subdivision development appeal board has more clarity on a move forward basis it's not entirely in order to ask that question now I respect that I probably the case but since we're all here mr. Watson did you have anything to say about that let's hear the chair I'm not aware of the actual specific item I have a make a guess but I'd rather not so I'm not aware of what we're actually talking about but I take an undertaking to sit down and go over it with you I mean the direct control is the direct control it's the bylaw the council gives three readings to with all the pieces something outside of that that needs to be done it really needs to be put in the bywater by law is the legal document ok I understand certainly sdab doesn't have the benefit of all the discussion that goes on here before looks at it perhaps although their staff that come to st ad but your worship I'd rather I think range of time for a coffee with alderman car and find ohhh we'll discuss and I apologize no no problem the right time for this sort of thing alderman Carra is under question period or administrative inquiries depending on the nature of the question that's that given that we are in the middle of a governance subcommittee and one of the things they're going to be looking at is the minutes it would also be a good time for you to have a chat with the clerk's office and bring that forward to that committee thank you very much very well anyone else on the minutes very well we've got a motion to approve the minutes of the combined meeting of council 2010 november eight as well as the special strategic meeting of council on 2010 november 16 and 17 on these minutes are we agreed any opposed carried I'll take a motion now to accept the consent agenda happy to move the consent agenda your worship thanks alderman Chabot do I have a seconder alderman Lowe any discussion on the consent agenda and you want to pull anything alderman Carra thank you your worship this is going to be probably a similarly procedurally challenged question but we've got two things coming forward number one is within the consent agenda is 5.1 which is CPS 2010 58 which discusses the update on meetings and conventions in Calgary at a special Santa policy committee I made some comments about the questionable value or the the issues I had with the general implications with regards to the triple bottom line framework if you if you want to have the discussion at council alderman Carra yeah the right thing to do is to pull it from the consent agenda now and then we'll deal with it as a separate as a separate motion okay my question I guess would be if you bring up issues at standing policy committee and everyone's like yeah that's a great point and then it comes through unchanged how do I do it do I pull it and then we discuss it yes I will do so okay so we're going to pull 5.1 anyone else on anything else sir you said you had to okay one is SPS 2010 58 the other is the other one is FCS 2010 25 by the point for on the agenda you'd like to pull that one too it's five points it is it's 5.2 25 council reserves policy is that the one you were aiming for yeah and then it both pertain to the both pertain to the implications the triple bottom line implications the base it on the triple bottom line is oh sorry alderman Carra you're pulling 5.1 and 5.4 I have five point two here twenty ten twenty FCS 2010 25 65.4 supership I think your numbering on anything oh sorry my agenda numbering is incorrect okay so we'll pull okay so you're asking to pull those two okay okay 5.1 which is page 39 and it's SPS 2010 58 cps right and the other one is 5.2 on page 53 FCS 2010 25 ok and go my movement is to to pull those two and put them on to the non-consent agenda when you pull them what happens as we go through the consent agenda approve it and then whatever has been pulled off we deal with it at that time got you okay I saw move we did clarification my agenda says point by point for ya ultimately I'm not sure what agenda we're working off of but I'm online so I'm curious which one's right I think the print one in the online one have a discrepancy because I just noticed it too so madam clerk how best to proceed looks like it's the numbering in the heart coffee that's think so we'll just go with the report that the actual numbers of the report okay so she would be FCS 2010 25 then okay that's the best way to do it rather than the others I people be able to even so we're being asked them to pull CPS 2010 58 and FCS 2010 25 as we move to this brave new world of electronic agendas we will sort all of this moving forward I really I want to take the motion on the consent agenda but I'll just recognize alderman Hodges and alderman Mar there's anything else yes just briefly your worship I just I noticed licking the agenda here yesterday the Audit Committee 2010 84 there's a typo on the right-hand column where we have a report coming in before the reports finished so I just thought I should just get the typos corrected i don't know that i need to pull a report out no I don't think so what's the if it's a clerical always the actual what should the actual date beads you have at hand it says april 2010 i'm sure they met april 2011 thanks alderman Hodges that's just a clerical we can go ahead now yeah Thank ok and alderman Mar thank you worship I know that we're all eagerly anticipating ultimate cause next soliloquy but I might be nice I am being nice I'm always nice it's why you all love me the the intent of it is is that the reason why I'm on my feet now is that what he mentioned that committee was a discussion on the triple bottom line analysis and I just wanted to remind Council of the best part of the discussion my notice of motion is bringing so okay or may be able to circumvent someone get to it later ok so then on the consent agenda with those two items removed are we agreed very well that takes us then to CPC 2010 oh my goodness yeah no sorry cps 2010 is what i meant to say cps 2010 58 so on cps 2010 58 did you want to introduce it alderman Mar thank you your worship this is the cps 2010 58 which is an update on meetings and conventions calgary there's was ongoing discussion about the benefits of having conventions in calgary and I know that we are going to be hearing from other members of council on this now thank you are you moving the recommendation alderman Mar thank you do I have a seconder thanks alderman Stevenson on cps 2010 58 did I see alderman pootmans late on alderman Curragh do you want to thank you worship my point and I again I understand that we're sort of like procedurally questionable here okay well I guess the procedural question ability had to do with that was like my first SPS standing policy committee and I called into question the reporting on the implications so council a while ago established triple bottom line policy implications to bring forward before for council to sort of discuss what the implications were for any particular report that's coming forward and in my short time on council and part of my issue preceding my arrival at council had to be surrounded the fact that we weren't I don't think taking these triple bottom line Policy Council of policy reporting as seriously as we could and so I'm I've pulled out these two things to just highlight this and I'm I'd be happy to forward it to alderman Mars motion arising later in the agenda as potentially but I just want to sort of highlight this for the public but we have this report discusses conventions it says the social implications meetings and conventions contribute to the vibrancy of Calgary these events also provide opportunities for Calgarians to network with and learn from colleagues around the world definite positive social benefit to having conventions and an increase in convention here in Calgary economic repercussions of this report are that meetings and conventions in Calgary generate employment across many industry sectors introduce visitors to investment and tourism opportunities in Calgary and provides substantial direct delegate spending and local hotels restaurants retail outlets attractions and transportation providers so definite positive economic implication for Calgary becoming an increasing Center for conventions the environmental report says none as a result of this update report and I think that if we become more of a convention center and we have more air traffic and more international travel coming to calgary there are definite obvious environmental impacts and i think that us not noting that here because it's potentially a negative drawback is something that we have to we have to make a point of so we can mitigate for example if we have more people coming to the airport to come downtown might be smart to connect the airport with transit and so acknowledging it here would be a good place so I will make that point and assume that we are going to address it adequately with alderman Mars unless there's someone from one of the jams would like to address this oh I don't think so thanks alderman Carra I think that it alderman Mar has kindly brought us a notice of motion which would be a good opportunity to talk about that and or at procedural bylaw though I do though I do agree with you that's all reports should include a positive recommendation for the airport underpass did I say that out loud anything else alderman Carra that's all for this report great thank you any other discussion on this one so then on the administration recommendation on CPS 2010 58 are we agreed any opposed carried yes alderman pootmans rise to introduce a school class Oh lovely thank you very much i have the pleasure to introduce city hall class for this week they are twenty eighth grade three students from our lady of assumption school accompanied by their teachers eita kiss Norma and Lisa let win and trustingly their focus for this week will be what is a city built on wonderful would you please stand and greetings from council okay and you have now been on television welcome and i look forward to spending some time with you all later this week as well that takes us to FCS 2010 25 council reserves policy alderman Lowe would you like to introduce the new worship I'll move the recommendations of committee it was a very straightforward report there was no discussion about the recommendations at committee whatsoever the could be interested to hear you know the environmental comments and this one are certain reserves support environmental programs in Arkham and compliance with environmental regulations which i think is positive the social certain reserve support social programs at which assists the city in providing services which is a game positive the reporters have been reviewed for alignment of standard language the economic there were no implications indicated because the policy simply introduces the a regular routine review of deserves to worship so while I think I understand the alderman Carras has a interest and further reporting you know you put the other one over to refer the comments over to alderman Mars notice of motion which I'll Telegraph to you you worship that I intend to remove that to the committee that's looking at procedures now quite yet alderman Lowe do I have a seconder thanks all there in pink cot alderman Chabot well thank you worship well I supported this in committee and I will be supporting it here again the report as alderman Lowe indicators very straightforward it does talk about some of the the reserves that we decommission back in July that had been identified as being surplus to our needs are no longer required and there's going to be some additional reports coming forward in regards to how we deal with some of the other reserves and whether or not they need to be expanded on or limited and so I think the report is pretty straightforward so I'll be sporting thanks alderman Chabot I actually have a question on this one which is last week we had a ver Buena but one of the reserves the fiscal stability reserve and I noticed that one's not on the list to be reviewed in 2011 and I just wonder when that one's coming up on the schedule alderman Lowe mr. Sarner your worship the selection of the reserves to be addressed in the first cycle was principally drawn from recommendations from the audit committee report or the auditor city auditor's report on reserves that identified a number that should go first so the FS are probably would come in the second year or for sure in the third but I think the city auditor's report did not identify any issues around the FS are from a policy was that kind of process for me to control an excellent perspectives that they reviewed under yours okay yeah because they the question of course that was raised was much more about the amount than the policy and control this is about Paul the boat control Willy reviews also look at the appropriate amount alderman lower will that be a separate process they will look at the mall you worship okay and that's what I thought standard question the question I forgot in two thousand and one which is there a paper trail there will be a paper trail why was it reserved established is that reason valid today and reserve perform user should thank you very much alderman Lowe alderman Keating on this item thank you your worship I just had one clarification on the number in and again from my own information I understand we have somewhere in the number of 80 plus reserve funds if we divide that into three and we're doing it on that through every three years of a fund would be reviewed if we look at this where fall far below the one-third is it any reason for this your worship I haven't got the exact figures in front of me but my understanding is this is approximately a third or so I'm noticing the for example the reserved for future capital the life cycle maintenance and upgrade reserve are both fairly sizable reserves so I thought it is out of the roughly 900 or so million this is hitting about 300 so that was the intent no I haven't got my mouth in front of me so it's roughly 130 to the amounts ever hear not one period of the actual reserves does that help all drink it well yeah that's right I understand that portion that just when you're looking at numbers if you're going to review them every three years it means in one year you're going to have 25 and here we have 12 or 15 and I just wanted to consider thank you okay thank you then on the administration recommendation on FCS 2010 25 are we agreed any opposed carried all right that then brings us to the public hearing Porsche of the agenda now for the benefit of those new to this process as well as those following along at home the way this works is that we will have the various items we'll start with an administration report and then we will have questions of clarification only four members of council to administration members of the public will then be invited to come and speak their peace for five minutes I'll first ask for members who are in favor of the proposal then I'll ask for people who are opposed to the proposal once we've heard from the public council may ask further questions administration and then we vote so we're going to start then with CPC 2010 11 2 and that is land use re-designation in Forest Heights and we'll begin with the administration presentation are you ready for us mr. hope the first item before you today is a land-use item in the community of forest heights this was a table from the last public hearing meeting to allow the applicant to conduct further consultation with the directly affected adjacent landowners that process has occurred and the applicant has provided us with documentation of the houses where he made contact with those affected adjacent neighbors proposed re-designation is to take the zero point zero seven hectares of land andrey designate the site from the existing rc1 residential district to a direct control district to accommodate the additional use of a child care service the use of a direct control district will allow for a site to retain its residential character and potential use into the future as well for the additional use of a child care service site is located on forty-seventh Street north east south east at fortune road southeast outlined in red on the location map corner site and meets with the guidelines of the child care service policy and development guidelines there has been no written objections to the proposed re-designation and calgary planning commission is recommending the council adopt the proposed read designation to DC direct control and give three readings proposed bylaw 101 d 2010 Thank You mr. cope any questions for clarification for mr. kobold Herman Chabot if you worship mr. Koch there's a deck on site you know if that deck is is we've got a development permit associated with it or building permit so she would know I have no information on that as this is a land use once a development permit comes in for the actual use that would probably form part of the bylaw check on the site itself so will form part of the bylaw check for the RP are real property report that's correct Thank You Richie thanks alderman Chabot any other questions of clarification on this any members of the public who wish to speak in favor of this proposal members of the public in favor sir please please approach the podium hello please introduce yourself for the record and then you may proceed good morning my name is Josh when I'm now Africa worship ultimate ladies and gentlemen objective reminder the children our future a good quality children service can make a significant difference in arrives or the primaries and let children this in turn enable a sugar to make a profound Warrier and non lasting contribution to the society some of you may still remember the waiting list in early 2008 for all child care service facilities and also the panic the parents have got wild organizations call them back to work and lay still looking for childcare facility availability can we do something to avoid list Epica happen again in our city the answer is yes this probably is located in right in the requirement of provincial and series a better we are working to build recovery a better city for children and our future remember it is better easier and more cost-efficient to build a child then repair an adult thank you thank you very much any met questions remembers the counsel for mr. Cornish point is it sir I think alderman Chabot has a question for you sorry as you worship so I um I as you know there's been a couple of concerns raised by some of the neighbors yeah and in your submission you make reference to the fact that you want to provide high-quality childcare services yep so this is something that you've been for about providing in the past I know it's not part of the land use but it is part of the concerns my wife not me I am a professional engineer by trade my vibe working in a child care service as a manager as a teacher for like almost 20 years so we are trying to get into this kind of service and my vibe is a certified level 3 daycare teacher at a providential of output thank you that does help give me some confidence and I'm sure the adjacent residents now insofar as the the deck that I reference before there is some question as to the aesthetics of it is that something you plan on making looked relatively consistent with the rest of the community last tag was built on the application of CD city's development permission and if I went through all of this I nation with a prairie planning department and later what Fusaro this property I bought it just for they care and I want to keep the children in our probably safe we need a tag I don't want to children run to a street that's the first point and let's tag is low a kind of lot lower than 20 28 inches so according to cities by law and ela is now required to be like say almost fencing everything to be built up like as high as meter I'm not a cold coca but the gentleman after I finish this one a gentleman from the city of coal court and saved heka was led to the inspection and he is happy with that so you completed inspection viewership yes the child completed application and inspection so the preliminary inspection as well as the completion inspection yes ok coke gentleman was happy with what I did good well it worship I I would like to make some comments once we've heard from anyone who wants to speak against the application on very well thank you any any other questions for the applicant thank you sir and I will remind members of council that really were talking about the land use so please try to keep your questions specific to the issues on the land use anyone else wish to speak in favour of this proposal anyone else in favor anyone wish to speak in opposition to this proposal anyone opposed a right then discussion on this proposed bylaw change alderman Chabot thank you worship well as you recall I did ask for this to be tabled last last council meeting and the reason that I asked for that is because some of the adjacent neighbors were concerned about the ongoing issues related to this property in anticipation that or with the assumption that the the tenants were actually the owners and as it turns out the tenants were actually only just renters and mr. Blaine was trying to recapture some of his initial investment pending the approval for this facility he has now gone and has made copies of contacted all of the adjacent neighbors I spoke with one of the appellants recently who was at least satisfied with the fact that Shuang has made attempts to contact him to try and resolve some of the outstanding issues he it's an ideal site it's on a corner lot it's adjacent to 47 street which is a fairly major collector Road which ties into fourth Avenue which subsequently can tie you either to the memorial drive by a forty seventh or forty fourth street by a fourth Avenue so there's great connectivity from a mobility perspective so I don't see that this will provide any undue impacts on the community from a transportation perspective so in light of that your worship I'm prepared to move the recommendations of CPC and three readings thank you and i think i have alderman Mar as a seconder alderman Stevenson very well any further discussion on this item ok so then on first reading of by law 101 B 20 oh excuse me first on the recommendations on the recommendations are we agreed any opposed then on the associated by law on first reading a bio 101 d 2010 first reading are we agreed any opposed second reading of the bylaw and second reading are we agreed any opposed authorization for third reading of the bylaw are we agreed any opposed and third reading of the bylaw are we agreed any opposed carried thank you that takes us then to CPC 2010 126 o'clair and its associated bylaws oh alderman Farrell thank you is this from you mr. cope this note from the applicant representative John Mayer oh okay apparently there's a request before the public hearing that is a request to table it yes okay request from the applicant table this until februari there's um some question about the title the note that i have here alderman Farrell is only to table the third reading that's not oh there's more information now hope if I may mr. mayor just been indicated that there is some discussion over some of the content of the existing by law the applicant would like an opportunity to discuss that with the downtown team and if necessary riad vert eyes and bring us back in February okay so alderman Farrell you're making a motion to table this item until second februari februari I heard someone say second aldrin low thank you any discussion on the lab notes non-debatable except at the time of the motions so any discussion on the time of the motion okay was it februari 6th alderman Farrell is that right first meeting in February okay thank you first public hearing in February in any case all right so on the motion to table until the first public hearing in February are we agreed any opposed oh Claire c be c 2010 126 thank you for that all right so are we agreed then any opposed all right carried so that one is tabled until februari that takes us to CPC 2010 127 and associated bylaws windsor park mr. cope thank you your worship poser e designation is located on the edge of the community of Windsor Park the parcel in question is outlined read on this location map and fronts on Macleod Trail Southwest at fifty seventh avenue southwest site itself is the former location of a number of various cart car dealerships polls read designation is take the land from the existing seek or 3f 3.0 a ch-46 land use designation and resonate the lands to seek or to f3h 46 commercial corridor to district as is the f AR and height is not changing as a result of this proposed redesignation the substantial change will be to allow for residential uses to occur on the site creating a true mixed-use opportunity for the site itself the proposed re-designation is supported by the community of windsor park and CPC is recommending that council adopt the proposed re-designation of the 1.7 acres from seek or three to the seek or two designations with a noted hi fi are limitations hey thanks mr. copa madam clerk a note that one of the screens is kaput yes your worship we are investigating it with corporate properties thank you questions for administration of clarification on this one questions of clarification alderman Carra sorry no I was just asking about the screen which was purple and then went to put purple is a good thing alderman Carra they're working on it sorry sorry for the folks to my left you have to crane their next a little bit any questions of clarification for administration all right seeing none any members of the public who would like to speak in favor of this proposal anyone who would like to speak in favor of the proposal but one of your worship members of the council my name is magnitude and I'm here to answer any questions you may have on this application any questions for mr. Chu alderman Hodges thank you worship mr. Chu there's reference to the Chinook station area plan in the report how far is this site from the Chinook station can you tell they just outside the 600 meter radius can you can someone show me perhaps one of the staff where the station is located Thank You First Avenue two blocks west of massage oil so it's it's south of what you see on the map each title McLeod don't even sell so they're a little bit south of where the n arrow is I think yeah even a little bit further south than that down over to where it says North that looks like a little bit south of there I think well outside the 600's design commotion other questions for mr. Chu very well then any anyone else who wishes to speak mr. to teach you have anything else to say sorry anyone else who wishes to speak in favor anyone else in favor anyone who we should speak against this proposal anyone who wishes to speak against all right then to members of council all during pink cot well thank you i will move the recommendations and three readings of viola 109 d 2010 and just for a point of information the boundary of the chinook station area plan is across the street so the boundary of the plan area is 56th thanks do I have a seconder thanks alderman Jones any further discussion on this one so then on the recommendations are we agreed any opposed all right let's move then to three readings of the proposed bylaw 109 d 2010 first reading are we agreed any opposed second reading are we agreed any opposed authorization for third reading are we agreed any opposed and third reading are we agreed any opposed carried okay that takes us to CPC 2010 128 Richmond mr. cope thank you your worship proposed re-designation is in the community of Richmond the parcel in question is outlined on red faces onto 17th avenue southwest at twenty fourth street south west's poetry designation will take the lands from the existing seek or one district with a fa are of 4.5 and a height limitation of 30 meters and change the district to the seek or one district with a updated fa are of 4.7 and a height limitation of 32 meters polls redesignate is to reflect the actual as built condition of the building that is on the site the proposed redesignation has been supported by the community association and we understand that the there has been some areas within the existing building that were filled in resulting in the requirement for the additional fer and height building in question is showing here that's taken from the northeast looking southwest residential building or office above the podium level with offices located adjacent to the street on 24th of 17th avenue in that respect there is a minor requirement for a change to the existing a area redevelopment plan and that is simply with texts reflect that the area is subject to a new land use designation to bring it into conformance with the ARP in that respect CPC is recommend the council adopt that proposed amendment to the richmond area redevelopment plan and give three readings to bylaw 40 p 2010 and secondly to adopt a proposed redesignation from seek or 1f 4.5 h 30 to seek or 1f 4.7 h32 and give three readings to bylaw one and D 2010 thanks rich go up any questions of clarification for administration alderman Chabot very briefly scope so what's the intent of this line use just basically to bring it into conformity with the existing built form that's correct nothing else other than nothing else thank you were tripping up for the questions thanks alderman Chabot any other questions of clarification for administration all right then any members of the public who would like to speak in favor of this proposal we're making him let me know in a little bit mr. to you your worship members of the console I'm going to answer any questions you may have and just a slight clarification that he wised FBI requested is 4.74 alderman Chabot well I was going to approve it at 4.7 oh well 4.74 no sorry worship uh mr. Chu I'm just curious as to why the application didn't come in with the correct height modifiers as well as correct fer originally and and was the community the community have an opportunity to have some input on this set at the current land use and what were their thoughts on from your recollection so you worship the original proposal was for 4.74 but during the construction stages some changes were made to the mechanical system etc and they added a little bit to the build form so this changes to reflect what is there there's no increase in the density there's no increase in any areas except the bill form has changed a little bit it has to be 4.74 so no additional units were added to this so no your worship know a decent unit at it and the hype modifier was because of adding a system that was required to be installed thank you for those clarification points here thank you your worship thanks alderman Chabot no alderman Carra yeah my question is I just want to get a sense of time and expense to this project for making that very minor variation you know it's obviously still under construction but how much extra time and expense has gone to the developer for having to bring this minor variation forward and bring it into conformance with our our rules of English inclusion of that we as the administration then us yeah i'm not i'm not quite sure that's an appropriate question for land use public hearing though a very interesting one that's all i wanted to do is just make that thanks alderman Carra other questions for mr. Chu all right thank you sir thank you anyone else wish to speak in favour of this proposal in favor of this proposal anyone wish to speak against this proposal anyone wish to speak against this proposal alright members of council all them in removing it do I have a seconder alderman Chabot thank you any discussion on this one all right then so on the recommendations of administration all right okay on the recommendations of administration are we agreed any opposed we're going to take the two bylaws separately then so we'll start with proposed bylaw 40 p 2010 first reading of the bylaw are we agreed second reading are we agreed authorization for third reading are we agreed any opposed third reading are we agreed any opposed very well carried and then on proposed bylaw 110 d 2010 first reading or we agreed second reading are we agreed authorization for third reading are we agreed any opposed third reading are we agreed very well then carried that takes us then to CPC 2010 129 and associated bylaws aspen woods mr. cope thank you your worship proposed re-designation is located in the community of aspen woods and affects the lands outlined in red on the location map access from 14th avenue southwest poser ii designation will take the lands from the existing SSP our district which is intended for reserve purposes andrey designate lands to our to residential one and two dwelling district which is consistent with the other land located east along 14th avenue southwest blinds in question became surplus in terms of potential municipal reserve dedication as a result of the increase in environmental reserve dedication which is occurring on the overall development concept area which is outlined in the dotted line in that area the area shown as scri on the eastern a portion of the site is going from what was to be a storm pond to now it is going to be a a storm naturalized area and we will therefore be dedicated as environmental environmental reserve as a result the overall gross develop alaria of the entire site has been reduced resulting in the reduced requirement for municipal reserve dedication and therefore the site will allow for additional two lots to occur within the development area the site in question is currently treed with the house you can see under construction mean directly adjacent to the proposed are two lots in this respect it is recommended that council adopt proposed re-designation and give three we used by law 111 d 2010 thank you questions of clarification for administration alderman Hodges thank you worship mr. Cole pipe I take it that there was an environmental reserve designation on the lands but no mr designation on the lands at the present time that's correct the entire area has been approved as part of an outline plan with the are two lots that you can see they're having already been registered there is no municipal reserve or environmental reserve that has been dedicated to this point in time thank you thanks alderman Hodges alderman Lowe thank you a copy of an aerial photographs or current aerial photographs of the area slightly dated but yes we do have a very are there so and I look at that of what I see is the whole that whole of that Panhandle corner is treat at the moment that's correct the lands to the south and to the west and to the southwest have all been stripped of any vegetation and have been constructed upon yes now so but about half of what could be termed as a treed area remains the buffer is that correct that's correct and access access to the area remains unchanged the access would be from 14th avenues m ok thank you thanks alderman Lowe alderman Chabot entire ship mr. cope you said there was no municipal reserve dedication that because of a previous agreement with the mde or and it's just a matter of timing actually reserves our own for the entire subject area that just left them screen the old-line plan covered the area that is outlined in the dotted line there the first phase included the r2 along 14th Avenue but the balance of the area has not yet been registered on a tentative plan basis when that occurs that is what will dedicate the unit or reserve and environmental reserve parcels so it does that not further encumber the balance of the site to try and make up that difference actually because of the additional environmental reserve dedication the amount of municipal reserve has been reduced therefore the area affected by this land use re-designation is not required to fulfill the ten percent of growth of medication hello it it doesn't really have any bearing on it does it only only by choice they're still in obligations they're not the obligation for ten percent municipal reserve is still there and will be fulfilled okay so now as far as this particular site is concerned it's it's identified on the map as sbr it's correct i mean it went through ju CC for their approval no the land that's a land use term it is provided for in terms of where Miss reserve might occur but they are designation under let under land titles would be the mr designation under land use bylaw is the SSP are so it didn't need to go through a joint use coordinated got it right that's good too we wouldn't be here yet thank you your worship no further questions thanks alderman Chabot alderman Farrell thank you I just wanted to point out the photograph with all the Aspen and this would have been this area we've been a permanent perfect location for conservation subdivision so I I'll continue to bring it up until we see that implemented in the City of Calgary perhaps autumn improvements and I could talk about it all right a reminder that we are still on questions of clarification for administration not yet on debate though though the irony of the community called aspen removing the Aspen's was not lost on many in the room alderman pootmans thank you worship Oh mr. cope what it would be the width between the redesignated land and the alleyway behind the existing houses to the wet West what what square foot path and feet are meters don't have the actual plan with me i would ask to make that to be in the order of 60 to 70 feet so approximately two lots that's right thank you thanks alderman pootmans alderman Carra questions for administration it's sort of asked and answered by your worship I'm just going to ask mr. cope the area is called aspen woods and the site is currently covered with trees aspen woods I'm presuming their Aspen okay and okay thank you some some of the botanists around the rumor or questioning whether those are actually Aspen's but I won't push that on you mr. cope I think they are all through equipments questions of clarification your worship the tone of the discussion is amusing the reality is is that development previous aerial photos show that the entire area at one point was treat and in fact I might go so far as to say large parts of Calgary have been treed developers have purchased and negotiated with the city in good faith to build out much needed housing for which there is a strong market demand and I think it's appropriate to recognize that appropriate allocations for municipal reserve and in fact great efforts made to preserve amenities are being made and that perhaps where we all live currently what street at one point so I think that point in fairness has to be entered into the discussion and put on the record thank you fair enough alderman pootmans alderman Hodges so just going to comment your worship I didn't know we were in to debate yet no we're not thanks alderman Carra members of the public who would like to speak in favour of this proposal anyone who'd like to speak in favor your worship members of council Kathy over with brown and associates Planning Group I have some paperwork to hand out one of them is a letter from the community association that was received yesterday another is a concept plan of the overall aspen woods community and a cross section that identifies and answers a lot of the questions that were just asked this application 4.11 Hector's is considered a technical refinement resolving resulting from the completion of detailed design of the storm pond east of the proposed stage 1 roadway at the time of the aspen woods stage 1 approval in December of 2009 an agreement was wait made between Dundee and city administration to at the time of detailed design review the possibility of providing a higher quality natural amenity environmental reserved stormwater pond instead of a more engineered stone storm water management facility detail design was undertaken earlier this year for the proposed storm pond facility administration has concurred with our team that the higher quality natural amenity design for the 1.05 Hector East pond meets the environmental reserve standards and should replace the original storm water management facility on a public utility lot designation due to the increased environmental reserve on the subject site there is a minor reduction of 0 point 11 Hector's to the total municipal reserve requirement being requested by administration the total percentage of municipal and environmental reserved for the approved applications thirty-seven percent of the total area with the proposed changes before you today the percentage of reserve dedication will increase by three percent and will be forty percent of the total area the aspen woods community plan identified the ravine area on the subject site as the environmentally significant area while the tree stand that includes the subject point 11 Hector's redesignation site was not recognized as an area significance that being said Dundee as illustrated in their Wentworth development to the north recognizes the benefit that existing vegetation brings to their communities these proposed lots will contain a cave yet protecting up to 4 meters of trees in the rear yards of these Lots as does all the other lots along lat 14th Avenue roadway a significant amount of time was spent with parks and administration to review areas where the point 11 hectors of municipal reserve could be removed from the original approved subdivision plan through the review of vegetation grading and existing slopes it was determined by parks and by dundee that this was the best location for conversion of municipal reserve to residential in exchange for the substantial addition of environmental reserve we have read the letters submitted in opposition to this application and Dundee has contacted four of the adjacent residents comments came from the community association and have stated that the community association is neither in support nor against the proposed application the major resident concerns are as follows the removal of the proposed narrow strip of mr land will affect the enjoyment of their homes and those traveling along 14th avenue and since they purchased their homes there was a green space designated behind them we've prepared a cross section that illustrates the interface between the proposed land use amendment and the Aspen cliff community as well as those traveling along 14th Avenue we believe that there will be no impact on the adjacent Jason Aspen cliff Lots the existing aspen tree stand and tree stand and underbrush presented dense population of trees and a visual vegetation screening will be maintained the proposal would result in the construction of two single-family homes along 14th Avenue the municipal reserve with along 14th Avenue would be 25 metres it would be a 25 metre tree buffer between the proposed lots and the rear property line of the homes located within the aspen cliff community in addition to it being 25 metres in width this mr parcel is also elevated at this location and sits between 4 to 6 feet above grade of the adjacent regional pathway we recognize that the parcel was zoned as a park and designated municipal reserve with our 2009 approval dundee and its consultants have worked diligently upon this land use approval to complete the detailed design of the storm pond and resolve the land uses an application was made immediately after the design was completed another concern of residence is the removal of a heavily treed area having an effect on the duck pond and threatening the lives of the organisms within the system it is parks mandate to ensure the long-term viability of this wetland and ask such all the appropriate buffering and water control measures were provided with this December 2009 approval these areas were designated er Urban Development changes the natural environment many parts of aspen woods including the Aspen cliffs subdivision were covered in trees prior to development the trade-off in this application is point 11 Hector's of lower quality municipal reserve being exchanged for 1.05 Hector's of a higher quality wetland a tenfold increase in area Dundee and its environmental consultants are confident that this new environmental reserve land will be an area used for continued wildlife and bird use in addition vegetation will continue to thrive along the eastern boundary of 14th Avenue and be of benefit to the overall community we hope that council will support the re-designation from SSP r2 r2 and I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have thank you very much alderman Hodges yes thank you wish musselburgh this is an aspen wood stage one yes site plan you've distributed and you mentioned new environmental reserve with the 1.0 well on the screen to 1.05 Hector's is any or all of this included in a development agreement for this part of aspen woods in other words is there any obligation to dedicate any of this still in the works I know that the subdivision had gone through and those all the components except for the bottom corner were included in that subdivision so I believe they've worked through the subdivision development agreement I could that would be a question I could get Dundee to answer okay but it did was included within the tentative plan except for the bottom the bottom corner because we were still trying to sort out the designation I wouldn't have asked except you use the term new new environmental reserved words mean something in this business you quite a bit actually saw and just asking because the word no yeah thank you thanks alderman Hodges alderman pootmans yes your worship thank you and thank you for your presentation could you please outline briefly the public consultation process public notice process that you've been through with this development it was a standard process as far as when we submitted it when we when we went through it we were thinking of it as a technical refine like technical correction to the to the reserve numbers and at the time there were the definitely parts of aspen cliffs still under development it wasn't until we were contacted that there was some opposition to the application and we made contact with all the names all the residents that were offered to us to contact but we didn't go through a say a full open house kind of scenario with with this small application so that that wasn't included in it but again we made all efforts once we found out that there was some opposition and again a lot of the that some of the other until the agenda came out we didn't have you know a full idea of all the issues that were raised until we saw the agenda Thank You alderman Carra thank you your worship I'm just following with alderman Hodges assertion that words mean something in your presentation you stated that we're getting a tenfold increase of high quality environmental reserve in exchange for its 110th lower quality municipal reserve can you qualify that sort of statement equality because I mean it seems to me we're talking about an existing aspen tree stand not just something that's sort of like left over after development there are component in and again back when when the application was approved back last year with in regards especially to that storm pond in the corner or the pond in the corner there are some wetland qualities in there not the entire area and there was discussion many years ago when the storm water management plan was done with parks and and for this area it was always designated that this area would contain a stormwater ponds so there's definitely a lot of qualities in the detailed design that was done in order to kind of meet the two of you know the two requirements of have of having the storm water requirement there for this area this kind of quadrant and then being able to to keep those and enhance them as well that the enhancement in the parts that have to be engineered will bring that environment there to be a quite substantial piece to it but I recognize what you're saying that I mean we're taking a you know a chunk out to yes so I let me let me rephrase my question and is your assertion that the environmental reserving question is higher quality because its environmental reserve as opposed to municipal reserve or is your assertion that an engineered wetland is of higher environmental quality than an existing area of tree to aspen woods and that question was posed to our environmental consultant when we are weighing even when we went through the process as to where would be things that were of substance to maintain on the on the land I would go with his his recommendation that Chum as we had removed partial parts of the trees but kept it we could along 14th Avenue definitely it was stated at that time that the wet pond on both sides of the road that's where the wild life exists the birds are and as an overall community amenity to maintain that coexisting of ourselves and and Wildlife I'm not an environmental cancer but I mean that could be I guess posed to to someone of that background I'm going off that we we believe that this corner as does parks that this is is an area that is a benefit and to have all the characteristics that will be in there okay thank you thanks alderman Carra alderman Chabot and then me um it's briefly so Miss over what you're saying is that if I if I'm reading this correctly as 1.05 Hector's of environmental reserve this is of greater significance than point 11 Hector's of aspen woods that's what we believe that would be thank you thank you worship just to be clear alderman Chabot point 11 Hector's of a spender sir missile bird I've looked through the public submissions and I noticed there are a number of submissions from homeowners who have not yet moved in a long Aspen cliff closed southwest just to make sure that I'm reading this correctly these folks are still getting a regional pathway and 20 meters of aspen woods behind their homes before we get to this particular this particular lot is that correct they had 50 and now they're having 25 yes okay I just wanted to clarify that okay Thank You alderman car do you have another question of clarification okay any other questions from is over alright anyone else then who wishes thank you very much anyone else then who wishes to speak in favour of this proposal anyone who wishes to speak in favor anyone who wishes to speak against this proposal good morning so please identify yourself and then you can proceed good morning your worship and members of council my name is donna conan not spelt SI un and I n and I've come to this council meeting today to address the issue of land use re-designation and we my family and others as you have read in your agenda are strongly opposed to this recommendation for rezoning in our neighborhood and we believe in fairness that this issue should be tabled for further study to find a solution that supposed supports not only the developer but also the adjacent homeowners of which we are one we live in Aspen and we live adjacent to the land in question my husband and I entered into an agreement with our builder in November of 2009 and we believed at that time that our home went back on to a large stand of Aspen forest and a protected class five wetland we learned in december of last year that that plan was approved by city administration and we were pleased to go ahead with our building however this summer we were out for a walk walking along 14th Avenue and we saw a yellow sign 20 x 24 inches which indicated a request for rezoning I questioned the due process by which adjacent homeowners are advised of land rezoning if this is the manner in which we are to learn of these requests I spoke with a ms king in the planning department and I was informed that the only way we could have input into this decision at this time was to come here today at the end of the piece we were never throughout this process notified directly by the city or the developer for a request for rezoning it was only through our own curiosity and our own determination that we learned of dundies plan I have spoken with a developer and he tells us as we've just seen that this request is for what he called a correction to the original plan we and others would like to see this correction made elsewhere you can see from the plan that it is a very large development and we believe that two additional lots could be found somewhere that wouldn't require a redesignation of reserve land and a substantial loss of trees and Wildlife the irony again our neighborhood is called aspen woods if you allow more of our woods to be taken out perhaps we should be here requesting a renaming before you make a decision to allow the developer to turn an existing green space into more housing I ask that you consider the people who bought homes in aspen cliff estates because of that aspen grove which surrounds it we purchased our Lots with a reliance on the existing development plan with the good faith that it would be the plan going forward now to consider changing the plan after the fact is inequitable and inappropriate we made our decision based on the development plan approved by the city and it would be unfair for this council to open the door to change that now I would ask that this new council do what you said you would do and change the way you do business we see this as an opportunity for you to demonstrate your conviction to your election slogans we made a substantial investment in this neighborhood based on good faith in public documents we had hoped to see our investment increase in value we didn't plan on seeing the value drop because our City Council voted to support a huge developer we like our neighbors would have written to this council who have written to this council pardon me I believe there's seven others we are strongly opposed to the designation and we trust you will support us we believe that adequate consultation and informed an equitable approach to reaching this important decision are your responsibility and then I trust you will fulfill it a balanced and healthy community that grows in accordance with sound planning principles is what I want for this generation and those to come maintaining adequate green space is the key to this I thank you for your time and your attention I'd be happy to try and answer questions there was an issue about traffic I don't know if you were notified by Weber academy but there's a big problem on that street between Weber Academy and Calvary Academy hundreds of students and families using that access to get into that community another consideration that i haven't heard mentioned today thank you very much thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today miss cannon and i think we do have some questions for you alderman Mar I'll try to answer them thank you so unfortunately one of the ways that we are communicating to citizens online use and development permits and things of that nature one is by the sign and the second one is of course it's it's printed in the newspaper and then advertised for two weeks obviously unless you're specifically looking for something in your area it makes it very very difficult to come across are you connected at all to your community association well we're not we don't really have what we're part of strathcona I understand yeah hmm but are you are you personally connected you were no one no okay because that's often in another way that that communities will reach out to their their neighbors if you will and talk about just like this the problem has been timing and that's why we've requested a table to try to there's a lot of information we don't have you know there's lots of things we could add at this point I'm not sure it's the place or time but you know there's lots of things that could be said and done so whereabouts are you in this particular way back on to that s SPR we're about four Lots in from the corner maybe five right there yeah I think so okay and so your concerns are that you're going to lose some tree coverage and green space and things of that nature really and acting and when when you first purchase your house you mentioned that you met with your your builder and and the developer and it was understood at the time it was in advance of the plan approval it was november but the plan was approved in december of 2009 mmm and that was when we that okay perfect we'll go ahead okay and I'm guessing by what you would your what you're getting at then is that had you known that this was going to come you would not have chose to purchase that that lot you would have moved to maybe another one over there is that is that picture we moved there because we didn't want to look on another house right move from Kelvin Grove beautiful established neighborhood out here to where there's few trees and said okay I'll live here only if we can look on trees and not another BBQ so mm-hmm that was our decision okay those are my change probably yeah sorry I didn't it may have changed if those trees if we knew they were going to be taken out right okay well and and one last question how long would you suggest would be take to table this for so you could have a more fulsome discussion with the with you I maybe two to three months we'd be reasonable okay thank you so much free time thanks alderman Mar alderman Hodges she worshipped thank you ma'am you do live on that log right you're a resident almost we took home we took ownership in July yeah well I just want to put this question out there and I Solomon Mars said there is a system of posting a site putting an advertisement at least in one newspaper much well ahead of the public hearing but there's also a practice the department has of sending adjacent property owners letters but I never receive to let them know there's a land use application to jason to no never okay so if you hadn't seen the sign you wouldn't you may be unaware and the photographs that you have show what's going on on that street there's nothing but truck so I mean unless you're walking behind the truck you're not going to see a little yellow sign I understand that ma'am that's a that's what I'm trying to clarify as you said you happen to be out walking and saw it one day thank you and they posted another one in October but there were more trucks there so I'm sure nobody saw that one you should have in my opinion in my area people get letters no reason you shouldn't received we do not receive a letter okay thank you worship thanks alderman Hodges alderman pootmans IES worship thank you perhaps a point of order would it be possible to have a summit from the administration to speak to this matter of notification we can do that when we finish the public submissions lumen Cara asked and answered sorry alderman Chabot and thank you for being here today not you mentioned something about when you purchased your home we wanted to be able to continue to look upon trees but based on where you've suggested that your home is there's really not going to be any visible change from your home is there there is I invite you to come and see the corner and I'm not sure of the measurements that are presented by Brown and associates they mean these are the kinds of questions that we would like to find out for our own sake if that's truly the amount of green space left there because it does look like the trees are going to be retained in that area some but not all there's a large tract of land as you can see where there's lots of opportunity to add two lots they're not Lots that overlook a beautiful wetland but there's places they'd be could be given that land that if it is owed to them we'd like to see it considered and it just missed or can you put that overhead map up please you would so kind the d topographical the overhead view the one where it shows the trees and whatnot yeah so that one there does show that the bulk of the trees are all in that area so you're saying because of the density of the trees is being removed it it's going to have a visual impact I will see those houses from my my house through the trees yeah okay thank you that's so it's not an issue of walking around community and the loss of trees so much as you're your own visual impact it's not just a NIMBY issue it's an issue of process it's an issue of beauty it's an issue of wildlife when they started taking the trees you know I was in the backyard saw two deer running around like wow what's happening and we hear owls in there there's coyotes you know animals live there I'm not going to appeal to that Sensibility because you know why bother but i am going to appeal to the sensibility of process i wish i can understand animals like that thank you for your presentation rich i thank you alderman Lowe thank you miss Curran you said that when you purchase your property your developer and builder made some sure who is your developer at prime or developments it was not done d no thank you thanks older and low any other questions for Miss Conan again thank you so much for taking the time to be here we know that this process is arduous and requires people to give up a lot of their personal time but it's important to counsel hear from you on these matters so thank you very much for being here thank you any others who would like to speak in opposition to this proposal anyone else who would like to speak in opposition mayor alderman my name is Oscar feck I acknowledge cunning sir comments what a city process I just want to make a couple comments I have some land at make a trail north east and and this is part of the system that we have lived in and I've been talking to the city hall for years I've talked to alderman Stevenson and we try to negotiate my land is zoned commercial industrial it seemed like the downs owned it to r 1 and r nair was never no one notified and i tried to make a deal with him to put this four-lane through on matey trail they stifling me and there are lot yeah the process that's look at me if you're not going to sell it to us we're going to export me that's what the alderman Stevenson mentioned to me it's we used to be a bit careful mr. Gannon oh I know I'm always trying to protect you I know and thank you very much I understand your question as to process so stick to that please yeah okay no but you know what I'm saying though I hope it's going to change because and they're supposed to put an under under path because it is zoned commercial but they wanted downs on it and why build a two-lane make the trail where they could build a four-lane six-lane now and don't come back to three years later and start over again it's half the price when you build that now this is the process mayor I hope you will take my appreciation what a mention in the lady mentioned to you because things must change it shouldn't be who you know to get things approved that's wrong that's not democracy it's it's frightened of us happened in the last many years I've been here some 52 and I know what's going on and it's mayor expect a new alderman please analyze everything was happening we must change the system now I hope you will take my land a Pilates in consideration I hope we don't have to go to procedures where we gonna fight over it let's do it now we automated trail the weight should be built have your staff negotiate with me in an honest honorable away again respect don't get into the other land issues no no I'm not busy we could be jeopardizing things going forward I appreciate your comments this happens going on for so many years and pushing just tired after a while you know what I'm saying I hear you okay thank you very much thank you anyone else would like to speak in opposition to this proposal all right then members of council other input mins this would be the appropriate time thank you your worship if I may speak with remember Thank You mr. cope I wondering there must be precedent for how you've managed in the past when there are developments being proposed with adjacent landowners lots may have been purchased not built on how is there any methods you have to get in touch with such people who have a vested interest clearly in fact perhaps an elevated sense of concern because they have it's just recently made the purchase and moaning what mechanisms you might have to address this problem we try to be absolutely consistently on the notification procedures notification procedures include sending letters to adjacent properties who would but the subject lands or what about the lands but we're not for a road or a river or something that effect in this particular case because there is an intervening parcel the landowners along Aspen cliff closed southwest would not have received a letter of notification the other methods we use for notification to a wider audience is to advertise as public hearing in the bowl in the Calgary Herald as well as at the start of the process posting the site and at the end of the process for the public hearing posting the site again with contact numbers for information interesting are there what if you have there been precedence to this type of problem before certainly on occasion because of our effort to be absolutely consistent so it cannot be criticized for doing something differently in different situations something like this is slightly awkward obviously they are fairly close but in terms of our guidelines which is out of the act is the same requirements that are used to advertise subdivisions under the missile government act so we try to be absolutely consistent so that we're not changing procedures for different jobs so you can't elevate the level of notice requirement for one and not another not without direct requests I suppose from Council essentially if we were to do that the next time which would be an item which may not be as a critical nature we would of course be looked at for why didn't we do it in that situation so we try to be absolutely consistent in all respects that you have done anything differently on this project no we do of course circularly to the local community association and depending on the community association they also have their various means of making contact with affected yes and I to contacted and stimulated this response there darish another discussion um thank you mr. Howe thanks alderman pootmans aldrin more questions or debate yes questions for administration you worship mr. cope so according to to what I've just heard your letters would only have gone to whom who is considered an affected parcel the affected parcel would be the lot directly to the east of the site yes the four Lots to the south across 14th Avenue yes and the lot directly to the west which is a municipal reserve lot owned by the city so we would not have sent a letter to herself because of that skinny little that's correct it how wide is that bit give or take it not an exact measurement obviously by meters five meters okay no oh yeah there it is there okay thank you now um could you go back to the map please so the are two lots immediately adjacent to the site how far did you just say for lots of those or 11 lot of the r2 which is directly adjacent right and the four Lots directly across 14th Avenue and according to the to the report the community association no comments whatsoever correct and according to adjacent neighbor comment section again very limited focused on the fact that they were not owners at the time so people when they found out about it afterwards and exit sent something in that was the extent of the of the of the objections is that correct that's correct and they were localized where we would not I don't have the letters before us here today other than those that were sent in directly to the city clerk any letters that we receive administrative Lee we do review their concerns that forms part of the reports of calgary planning commission and those as we did in this particular case those concerns are aligned in the report okay a few moments ago there was also a color photographs from a bird's-eye view could we have a quick look at that again please this one yes and then maybe move it to the right of it all right okay so there's the subject site these are the houses you can see that there's sort of under construction some of them and some of them are built could we make that bigger at all goozoo million and the 5-meter setback area is right there with a dash mine is that's right okay okay thank you thank you very much thank you for sure thanks alderman Mar you know it may well be worth noting that well the public notification process was certainly in elegance if I'm following the letters correctly we have now heard by way of public submission from the directly affected homeowners on that street but that are the ones in question about whether you ought to have sent them a letter or not so it's unfortunate that it was this inelegant but we have heard from them and I just want counsel to be aware of that alderman Carra thank you your worship I was going to sort of I guess note that but also by way of asking a question this is the only time those landowners and there there's there's letters submitted to CPC and CPC will take into consideration those letters of the only time the landowners in question have the right to be publicly heard or to engage with the proponent with the planner or anyone is the submission we just heard here today it would be in this forum yes okay thank you thanks alderman Carra footman's again yes thank you worship unfortunately another point of order i apologize i'm not up to speed with my little orange book do i have the ability to ask questions of the applicant no too late they thank you we actually don't yet have a motion on the floor by the way I was just letting me I was letting the questions go for mr. Koch because I knew there were a lot of them but alderman pootmans are you you yes thank you worship i am prepared to move for a tabling of this motion until the first public hearing in February motion 2000 1000 60 all right then I have a seconder all the rink eating any discussion is to time only as to time they were saving it for the first meeting in February gets fed 14 I'm not sure as to time older in Chabot well if the mover could clarify as to his reasoning and what the intent is through the tabling motion I would certainly like him to entertain that magical got you've still got the floor alderman pootmans so if you want to just explain that would be great Thank You alderman Chabot I find the matters raised by the not only the residents and landowners to the immediate West but also to the South who have contacted our office with other emails and phone calls that approximately a dozen and all to their issues of process I find compelling I don't believe there are any faults with it it does the word awkward was used and I think perhaps that's the best way of characterizing this coupled with a change in alderman coupled with an election process there's just been a series of perhaps a perfect storm and because of that I believe that there is an opportunity I've toured the site twice I've met with the developer twice and I have some appreciation of the quality of work that will be done and some of the other amenities which haven't been produced or discussed at this table and I think it's very appropriate that all the parties have a further relatively short period of time to perhaps resolve their differences and perhaps even develop some new solutions and with that I believe tabling motion is an appropriate motion to present and I would ask you to support me into that Martian thank you very much sodermann footman's again only debatable as to time alderman Hodges yes your worship exactly i have the 2011 calendar here and alderman pootmans mentioned second Monday that's a regular meeting on Monday februari 14 the public hearing combined meeting and public hearing is februari seven so I just want to close yes alright it's what every seventh or every seventh little probably sharing okay by yourself thank you you were worship on a point a point of procedure ready have we not heard the public from the public so we've essentially gone through the public meeting portion it's not required to come back to a public hearing I was just about to ask that it would actually come back to the regular meeting but is that date still februari 14 is the regular meeting or 6th either there seven let's go to the fourteenth because a big guy would not worship before I was just seeing if they were objecting but they're not usual rather have februari 14 I think normally the seventh but with the time would be appropriate but with the holiday season I believe that the extra two weeks is probably i don't think any of your colleagues will complain about the extra two weeks so we have a motion on the floor then to table this to the regular meeting of council on fourteenth februari that's going to be a fun day in addition to the Hollen tines day all right and all during heating you're still seconding that correct all right oh right in order to in order to do that I do need a motion to close the public hearing on this so let's just do that alder in Pincott alderman Lowe or we agreed to close the public hearing very well then so on the motion to 0 so hurry all dermatologists alderman Hodges is opposed then on the motion to table and 2 februari 14th are we agreed any opposed alderman Chabot is opposed all right carried that takes us then to the next item in the public hearing CPC 2010 130 Douglasdale Douglas Glenn mr. cope thank you your worship poser e designation effects to lots in the development area of Quarry Park in the community of Douglasdale Douglas Glen sites in question are outlined in red and is within an area that is being developed as part of the quarry park development rosary designation will take the two subject lands from the existing direct control district and redesignate lands to a new direct control district as well as r-1 residential one dwelling district the site to the shown in solid yellow will be going to the r1 to allow for single attached development to occur which is consistent with the adjacent proposed uses within the development area the hatch site will be going to a new direct control district to allow for a wider variety of residential land uses current direct control allows for a low density multi-residential type of development opposed direct control district will allow for that development to occur as well as for the opportunity for a lower density development in the form of single or semi-detached development to occur within the site dependent on market demand at the time in that respect there has been no objections from adjacent landowners or the adjacent community associations therefore calgary planning commission is recommending that council adopt the proposed re-designation and give three readings to book posed by law 1 12 2010 questions for administration on clarification only albarn Farrell thank you so mr. cope we are lowering the allowable density there is a slight reduction potential reduction in density primarily as a result of the r1 I believe it will amount to a potential of 14 dwelling units it is well within the expected density for the area at the moment yes alderman Keating question of clarification thank you your worship am I correct in assuming that my understanding of quarry park which I'm very admirable for because it's an excellent development but the ratio of multifamily to single-family it seems like it's around eighty percent for multifamily in this area and twenty percent for single family is that correct I'm not sure both percentage is certainly the greatest bulk of the quarry park residential development is in a multi-residential format so I mean at a lower density with walk-out type townhouse development there are some apartments this area here being closer to the existing Douglas gland residential area is reflecting the type of single detached residential which is occurring directly adjacent to it so putting the percentages aside I'm correct in assuming that this is well and above other areas where we're developing multicam certainly it is certainly within the expected densities under the units will government or municipal development plan as well as for the design briefs for the area Thank you Thank You alderman Keating any other questions of clarification so is there anyone here who would like to speak in favour of this proposal anyone who would like to speak in favor good morning your worship and members of council my name is Ben Lea my planner with ibi group who's the formal applicant here with me today is the lovely Julian Lawrence from Remington development corporation whose developer for quarry park further the what mr. co-presented the intent here though the proposal is simply to redeploy a nominal amount of land in quarry park from the prevailing multi-family residential form to accommodate I guess lower profile lower density residential options the proposed DC district serves to embed flexibility as mr. cope said and response to the residential market in the future I mean that aside I think we believe that you know this DC district is a creative and innovative approach to residential land use that I think the industry may be seeking more of in the future but if I could be also be pre-emptive if I could answer a couple of the Alderman's questions with with regards to the additional density decrease we're talking about a potential for 14 units out of a total of 20 2120 100 so in effect it's probably less than point 1 percent or less than one percent sway is about point eight percent and with regards to the ratio of multifamily currently in quarry park as I mentioned multi-family is alien use in this area and it's a no something like Reming has taken a commitment to and at and pursued at some risk to them but that's the commitment and it still resides and the ratio is approximately currently ninety percent to ten percent in favor of multifamily we're looking forward to implementing the final and coral residential phases of quarry park and all together we believe quarry park is a reflective of Planet Calgary principles and represents a true mixed-use community that we believe the entire city can be proud of that being said Jillian Lawrence and myself will be available to answer any questions council may have questions for mr. Lee alderman Chabot and you worship mr. Lee insofar as a ratio that you just referenced 9010 are you referring to a number of units or area in this case I'm referring to the units only so as you know court Park has it over over a million but as far as an office baseball it's a mixed-use community so the office and the regional center of the commercial sign counts for a large landmass so that that community but as far as if we isolate for the residential portion land alone there's approximately 2,100 units anticipated in the community so so part of the commercial is that like mixed-use at great commercial with residential above yes there's potential for that as well in addition to the market that's there now but from an area perspective any idea and what the with the split is if you ask me the if you like let me know the exact split you're curious in it between what and what I could try to give to you right now single-family residential versus anything else versus anything like is it just strictly residential or Sookie multifamily or you want to mix it in the commercial and industrial as well r1 vs everything else give me a second if I may indulge counsel I want to account for about eight and a half percent area one every wise but density why's it accounts for he has about to see mill tempo I'm as far as a residential block it's ten percent in the residential portion so tell me what is it that I don't see here because all I see is our one well gee evah comprehensive ha yes I realize that your worship I just seems like it would represent a greater percentage than eight percent if in fact we have a bigger map mystery I do have a bigger map you guys alone so this will give you a so the block we're talking about fuga chair John Dramani Shabo is the near the southwest corner just a little bit for this so what I see in yellow is our one correct yes so the remaining proportion of all the orange and the deeper Browns that you see within the plant those are all multifamily so we have as as part of the comprehensive development plan that we had at the outset we have so the single-family lower density forms adjacent to the existing communities are predominantly lower density in Douglas gun the states to the south and then i sees pointing out we've been to the north but the bulk of the the units are contained within those darker Browns and oranges that are multi families so so through your color scheme on the on the side bar was there a reference as to the amount of acreages that each one of those different colors different land uses how many acres yes one of those representatives yes he came to that number yes how many acres was it that was our one was our one or Hector's if you give you a second well we have yeah larwin you add them all up I have the numbers right here it's approximately 22 acres for our 19 hectares metrics that's it what's the overall area overall fan tired development 300 over 300 12 acres okay thank you for those points of clarification mr. Lee appreciate that no further questions your worship thanks alderman Chabot other in our questions for Miss Julie just one or two your worship mr. Lee it's very difficult to see this but I'm wondering if there are any secondary Suites on this law in this plan yes they are and can you indicate that for me I can they are two parts of the plan there's one to the north there's if you look at this start from the very north in the yellow yes right there and then there's a kind of an intermediate yellow right across the band that's that's all are one that's our 1s with a lot of comedy second a streets and if you go to the south yes down the second the second Road south of the big Boulevard ring all the way to the self right there yeah but but there's also a company second around but is also secondary Suites okay what how many Lots are there total that are that are accommodating that lower secondary Suites in particular mm-hmm I just give me a second looks like 20 or 30 it's about 30 34 35 34 35 and what percentage is that just out of curiosity as part of your residential overall yes oh just part of the residential thing or the residential yeah that math I may be basically 35 of 2,100 mmm so be point to point two point three percent right okay but there's a significant amount of multi fab you one pie first 15 okay thank you so much and of course alder and mark soon that discussion will be moved right um other questions for mr. Lee very well thank you very much mr. Lee thank you others who wish to speak in favour of this proposal anyone who wishes to speak in favor anyone who wishes to speak against the proposal anyone who wishes to speak against all right will close the public hearing portion and go to question go to questions for administration and debate all during heating just say sorry i was looking to move all right so move do I have a seconder riddance alderman Stevenson thank you any further debate on this one okay so on the recommendations then are we agreed any opposed right first reading of proposed by Allah 112d 2010 or we agreed second reading are we agreed authorization for third reading are we agreed any opposed third reading are we agreed any opposed carried all right then that takes us to CPC 2010 131 the extremely poetically named neighborhood of residual area sub area to see mr. cope thank your worship propose we designation effects land that is outlined in red on this location map is accessed from the allowance 469 street northwest avaya 144,000 Northwest which is at the boundaries of the city of Calvary with rocky view poetry designation will take the lands from the existing s fud which is special-purpose future urban development district and redesignate the lands to DC direct control to gamma to accommodate a pits and quarries or a gravel operation on the site should note that the surrounding land uses to the west are currently a gravel operation which is in operation proposed direct control district is necessary under land use bylaw 1p 2007 to allow for the specific use and therefore is appropriate further the proposed direct control district has a couple of modifiers in in it to ensure that an asphalt batching plant cannot occur on the site and that the gravel crushing and sorting operation is in operation only with respect to the material as being removed from the subject site in that respect it is supported and just a couple of from the access road at 69 Street this is 144 looking west in the next photo is from the same location with one of the existing gravel trucks looking to head east back into the city itself in the respect city council or calgary planning commission is recommending council adopt the proposed re-designation to direct control district and give three readings proposed bylaw 113 d 2010 Thank You mr. Coe questions of clarification for administration all during Hodges thank you worship gical deeper into the write-up you have here and the agenda is a reference to two single-family houses in the area can you tell me where those are I believe there is a single attached house after that area are there directly to the north off of 140 fourth avenue west of the access area you can see one on the aerial photo the other one is located i believe to the south of that at the extreme southeast corner of the site I think you see the access driveway there no no no that would look look to be there any comments received from these landowners if they were notified about this not at the time of it going to calgary planning commission were they notified to the application I can't confirm that without checking the file again this is all those situations on a large land area where the signage itself would not have been terribly visible if they're not looking for it however it was advertised the Calgary Herald I'm sure it was mr. cope if you ever lived near a concrete batching plant no I have alderman Hodges questions of clarification if you'd like to answer it mr. Cooper I haven't that well my point is there any ideas of noise mitigation measures on this for this process this site this future industrial complex I'm not part of this land use application certainly there will be requirement for development permit following this process there is need for that there may be some consideration of grooming that type of thing that would be a development permit issue yes but other than dimension of mitigation you mentioned there is a mention of noise and dust but there is no effort in the hood that's been put into the bylaw to suggest to the approving authority how noise and dust would be controlled you know there's not commercial thanks alderman Hodges questions of clarification alderman pootmans questions of clarification alderman Carra thank you your worship um just a couple of questions regarding the land use pilot because I don't have it in front of me s Fudd is intended to be future urban development fairly open placeholder until we figure out what the highest and best use for land is and there's a bunch of discretionary uses in there and then I imagine this kind of aggregate there is an industrial use that's catered to it why the DC I just I guess by along the pits and quarries which is the term in the bylaw I can only be allowed on lands which are designated direct control that is as per bylaw 1p 2007 that's why we're using the direct control because there because of its nature with dust and noise that type of thing that is why it can only be occur under a direct control just okay Thank You mr. cope a quick one from me you said their existing aggregate businesses in the area could you show us on the map where yes actually you can see that on this aerial photo all those scraped lands are currently being a gravel operation access to that site is also using 69th street and trails off there that access area actually loops around and connects with 85th street and there is a Nashville batching plant as well as sorting operation on the site and what about the bid on the southeast corner is that the same I can't confirm that i didn't get down that far when i was doing on-site inspection okay thank you is there anyone here who would like to speak in favour of this proposal anyone to speak in favor thank you your worship and members of council my name is dawn Schultz and I'm the applicant for this proposed land use redesignation I just have a few brief comments to reinforce the presentation that mr. Koch gave to council this proposed land use amendment is consistent with City land use policies such as the north regional context study and the city growth management documents such as the suburban residential growth study more specifically the North regional context study does say that this area will be future industrial and until such time as urban industrial development takes place on this land aggregate extraction is appropriate as an interim use just to put this application in the context of the adjacent aggregate operations those operations are being conducted by inland aggregates lafarge and volker stevan they cover a total area of more than 1,100 acres or seven quarter sections of land by contrast our application covers approximately 40 acres similarly those three operations neighboring this site have approximately 60 million tons of aggregate left to be mined and the total amount of aggregate in our site is approximately two million tons the aggregate resource in this proposed pit is intended only for internal use of the parent company which is alsa construction there are no sales or hauling to third parties proposed in this operation currently alsa purchases and hauls gravel from the adjacent gravel operations there for truck traffic will simply be transferred from the adjacent lafarge inland & völkers devon operations to this particular operation detailed mitigation plans have been submitted to the city through the land use review process and will be included in the development permit application I just want to reinforce what mr. cope mentioned that the direct control by law has no asphalt plant allowed on this site we are only proposing portable equipment for extraction and crushing of gravel and a five-year temporary development permit after five years we do actually anticipate that most of the aggregate will be depleted from this site and if there is any gravel left to be depleted we would reapply for a second development permit after the five years we have met with and shared detailed information with the planning consultants working for the adjacent gravel pit operators we've also met with and shale shared detailed information with bears paw Christian school which is located approximately 400 metres to the north of this proposed site just to clarify one of mr. copes comments 140 fourth Avenue used to be the city limit I believe that city limit is now extended further north due to the recent City of Calgary annexation and so the bear's paw Christian school is within the city limits although it was approved by the envy of rocky view about 20 years ago in conclusion your worship and members of council we respectfully submit that the extraction of aggregate resources well in advance of urban development is in the city's best interests I would be happy to answer any questions that council may have as well I have my client here mr. West Marcus from the proposed gravel operator cancer any questions that I cannot answer thank you Thank You mr. shields questions alderman Hodges well there's just a couple things in the agenda Harry worship go from CPC and so mr. Schultz we at the CPC meeting your worship by members council yes I was at the CPC meeting okay because in the original right up that went to CPC there was a comment that truck traffic should be directed to Burma Road 140 fourth Avenue an amendment was placed at CPC that's deleted that requirement so which of the two roads will the truck traffic be using through the chair to alderman Hodges the original wording in the calgary planning commission report was placed in that report at the request of rocky view county to direct all of our traffic eastbound along 140 fourth avenue and we are happy to comply with that request of rocky view county I believe that alderman Lowe made the motion to remove that wording from the Planning Commission report and I defer to alderman Lowe for his reasoning on that that's why I'm asking the question now would get him warmed up on that on a response rather than us field questions after the hearing I take it though that 69th streets available is available for use trucks could turn north to Burma Road though they can turn south down to 112 7 just for clarification 69th Street rotor allowance presently is not operable to the south of our proposed pit so our traffic would be directed northbound on 69th street road allowance to 144,000 ooh how it would get to 112 Avenue if that were to be permitted by the city would be to go westbound along 144 and it sells itself yep on eighty-fifth yes I just noticed in the finer print on the map there's a closed Road loans do you know if your client plans any mitigation measures with respect to Dustin noise as is sometimes done now with the gravel mining operations absolutely your worship our client does intend to implement noise and dust mitigation measures this in addition to being required by the development permit at the City of Calgary is a requirement of Alberta Environment and we have included detailed information in our code of practice submission to Alberta Environment which we've also shared with the city and adjacent landowners have you discussed this yet with Alberta Environment that sounds like you might have yes your worship we have had discussions with Alberta Environment and we have submitted our code of practice document application to Albert environment for their review I will refrain from making any editorial comments about the interests of Alberta Environment and enforcing the rules thank you wish thanks for your self control on that one alderman Hodges other questions for mr. Schultz thank you very much sir thank you anyone else wish to speak in favour of this proposal anyone else in favor anyone wish to speak against this proposal anyone wish to speak against it ma'am good morning thanks for being here thank you for having me my name is Lisa Rosenberg that's our ose nber G and I live approximately seven kilometers from the site but I'm a parent of three girls at Baron squad Christian school the school is located at 69th and 144 I'm very concerned that there's no mention of a school in the area on this application this school is a k-12 school and has no transportation there are more than 500 students approximately 300 families I'm very concerned about the posted health warning signs I think they were placed a lot there's one at least place somewhere along 69th you can't see it near the school very concerned about the possible expansion of this gravel pit for health reasons the increased dust and noise when children are playing outside all the time for recess phys ed what were the long-term side effects of this exposure be very concerned about the possible increased truck traffic on 144th which definitely sounds like a reality many new drivers high school students drive this road every day I'm not sure they'll ever be my girls driving last year on the last day of school there was a rollover I thought exactly intersection 69 of 144 when our staff and her daughter in the car with two I don't know what the technical term is the gravel truck with the extra load rolled into the ditch there it was a miracle that no one died I asked this council to consider that the fact that there's a school across the street and consider their health and safety and reject the Sri designation thank you thank you very much mrs. Rosenberg thanks for being here alderman Lowe question from his Rosenberg huh just to thank miss Rosenberg for being here and yes I hear from a lot of people whose kids attend that school which was actually we inherited from the MD and also the school is an incredible growth project on clearly understanding where it was the thing that always puzzles me and perhaps you can answer is that why doesn't the school will have a transportation program and use buses rather than 300 cars a day that's a very good question I wish they were here to answer that I will state that I used to live in cochrane for five years and i've moved closer to the school in the last year and that i have been very supportive in trying to encourage the school to go that route it's pretty much a dollars and cents thing they have gone to the parents they have you know tried to bring it in a couple of times and there is an enormous carpooling effort and that's probably there's probably 200 cars in and out of there I'm just guessing the school probably knows better you're also aware that discussions with the schools and their expansion we've talked about improvements to that intersection the school will ultimately be paying for part of it and we're looking for some improvements from the gravel hauling industry because we have a fund we can get into you're aware of that absolutely i am aware that my bigger concern again I mean of course other applications that have come forward where they have talked about in crews improving the road improvements that's a wonderful thing but it doesn't really address the health the health issues the noise in the and the air quality yeah you're also where I believe alderman Lowe said something along the lines of keep in mind that this is a land use and we'll deal with that at the development permit stage and the concern of course is that we don't deal with that at the development permit stage the approving authority does and what's happening more often than not these days is there is not agreement met between parties at the land use stage that flows into the development permit stage and it ends up in subdivision and development appeal board which has two options they can look at the actual technical writing of the DC and then they can go and try and determine what councils intent was in creating that DC and I think we've had a really good discussion today surrounding it but all of this good discussion not be reflected in the minutes and so whatever technical nails that sdab chooses to hang their hats on at some point down the line we are not going to have the benefit of this conversation and some of the things that we discussed there to nuance what our intent was through the minutes and I'm just making that point because i think it's pertinent to what I said earlier and interesting this case too Thank You alderman Carra alderman Lowe you want to close I imagine alderman Chabot do you worship well I'm going to support the application this is this is very much like some of the other issues that have been raised in the past specifically in regards to gas wells that have been identified in the city and a report that had come out many years ago talked about the quick and early extraction of resources as quickly as possible so this provides an opportunity to draw a resource from an area ahead of development and the sooner we can extract this resource from this area the shorter the timeline will be that people adjacent to it will be negatively impacted by alderman Lowe correctly pointed out that part of the issue of course is the additional loading onto 140 fourth Avenue and we did hear the applicant state that he won't be adding additional volume to the roadways because either he'll be drawing it from this lot or he'll be drawing it from the adjacent lot and if there is going to be an increase in traffic it's going to be based on on demand as opposed to having more opportunity to draw from multiple sites so I'm going to support this I'm going to support it on a number of different basis but primarily to look at earlier extraction and quicker extraction to be able to facilitate redevelopment sometime in the near future thank you for sure thanks alderman Chabot mr. Koch can you confirm that I've heard it a couple of times now but that the applicant suggestion is this is a redirection of truck traffic rather than a whole bunch of new truck traffic I can't confirm that we do have a copy of a traffic study that was going to be submitted as part of the development permit they are anticipating that traffic from this site will generate up to 120 vehicle trips per day so that would be 60 and 60 out whether or not that's an increase over what is in the area now I cannot confirm not sure of Transportation may mr. van der putten I think is in the audience perhaps he has something to say on that your worship mr. cope is right the TA that we've just been handed that will be officially submit as part of the DP does indicate roughly about 120 daily trips being generated from this site if what the applicant is suggesting is that those trips are currently going to the pits on eighty-fifth street then the overall I guess further away from the site impact to the the road network would be negligible thank you very much mr. van der putten alderman Stevenson thank you worship I think they the the options that we have is to try and shut down development of these sites or improve the road network to handle it the I think the where we have to go is mitigation of the things that affect the the neighbors and that is the noise dust the road traffic but shutting down the the sites is not an option I mean the more we curtail the development of these resources the more we put up the cost of everything that happens in the city from buildings to roads all construction is a fact that if people have to draw these extracts from other places a lot further out of the city it increases the cost so we what we need to do obviously is deal with the road problems and I think that as a city we definitely have to to do something about 144th and according to alderman Lowe that action is already being taken so I will be supporting this application Thank You rook Thank You alderman Stevenson anyone else before I call then load of clothes farther and low well thank you worship and the council thank you for your comments one thing I didn't address her here was alderman Hodges question about my trying to take the all trucks must proceed eastbound claws out of the report two reasons for that you worship the first one is as indicated before we're doing some work up there to establish what the the aggregate hauling routes will be and they're most certainly not restricted to eastbound on 144,000 you that restriction was put in there that the request of the county that's inside the city if the county wants to put an old trucking sign up at the city boundaries to the west they're free to do so but I think inside the city we can determine what what the best options are for business and I can't imagine why somebody may want to haul aggregates west and down 185th street from this location but there may be a very good reason for it and that's a business decision but we will address the gravel hauling roots up there the other items alderman Hodges pointed out are the Alberta Environment and to set process that we go through is under their control and it will be addressed during the development permit stage and with that you worship I'm going to close on it and ask for your support thank you very much all during low so on the recommendations of council report CPC 2010 131 are we agreed any opposed alderman Hodges is opposed so then moving to the related by law first reading of the bylaw are we agreed opposed alderman Hodges second reading of the bylaw are we agreed opposed alderman Hodges authorization for third reading of the bylaw are we agreed any opposed very well then third reading the bylaw are we agreed any opposed alderman Hodges thank you carried we now move to CPC 2010 132 and I do thank the folks on this item and on the next two for bearing with us through the lunch break but we will move forward now so we go now to CPC 2010 132 mr. cope thank your worship the proposed land use item is within the community of beltline the proposal is to redesign eight the lands from the existing CCM H or Center City multi residential high-rise district to a DC direct control district to accommodate an office use within the existing development the existing development is currently a semi detached dwelling with an attached rear access garage the air photo showing the location of the subject site which is one half of the semi detached dwelling shows a better indication here the area is generally surrounded by primarily multi residential and commercial type uses to the west as well as you can see here the odd single detached dwelling which are historic in nature on 15th avenue southwest the direct control district will allow for the right half of the semi detached dwelling to be used for office purposes the has been no objections from adjacent landowners with respect to the use of the site however I should indicate that the Community Association is not in favor of the proposed redesignate in that respect CPC considering all the factors how are recommending that council adopt the proposed redesignation from CCM h 23 c direct control and give three readings proposed bylaw 114 d 2010 thanks mr. cope questions of clarification to administration alderman Mar and a question of clarification very well any other questions of clarification all right then is there anyone who is would like to speak in favor of this proposal anyone who would like to speak in favor gosh noon your worship council members my name is Bill Joe few i'm the owner and the applicant for if you we need to know how to pronounce my last name it's like Joe few many Joe's few Joe's Joe few or you can call me Bill doesn't matter for the record corporate record if I could your your worship I like to submit a letter of support from the neighbor at 13 18 15th Avenue madam clerk thank you the reason for me making the application for the two is to comply with the City of Calgary new land use bylaw in the Beltline community 1p 2007 thus implying for the direct control district DC with the base district of CC mhm Center City multi-residential high-rise district with a direct control to have an office in the stead unit in the existing building only located at 13 2015 avenue southwest the above said a lot is a few lots from the zoning of CC cor center city commercial court corridor district and as a quarter block from fourteenth Street the office will be used in a minor nature only and will operate in the existing building we do not plan to expand the existing dwelling unit inside or out in any way in fact the unit will remain and look like a residential unit I do not believe this will affect the surrounding area of 15th Avenue as the property will read like a residential pop property and again the outside of the property will remain the same as it has always been since 1995 it's also thank you mr. Joe few questions mr. Joffe alderman Mar mr. Joffe thank you for your presentation I'm curious I understand that what you're saying in terms of the reading of the street insofar as that you at this time make no plans to put on commercial sign age or to alter the exterior of the building in any way so that it from the street appears as though it is a residential that's correct there will be no changes at all well the concern from the community and I share is this creates a land use re-designation so sir in the event that the building comes down at some point it becomes a commercial building that's one of the issues that I have not necessarily for you when you are the owner of the property but your heirs and successors have you any comments on that well I understand your questions there but I do i actually have conferred with my neighbor on the east side actually two different Lots on 13 18 and 13 16 and we've actually you know discussed the actual designation is a CC mhm it's a multi residential high-rise now my understanding you can actually put a high rise up there 30 30 floors or you know at least very tall and narrow building wouldn't permit it would be very tall and narrow building that's their case we also were conferring with the the landowner behind us also on fourteenth Avenue and we're discussing a hole he has about five lots right behind us anyway you know if we were going to take a look at developing not any further then of course we would you know be totally different and it would be you know in the purpose of having a high-density residential units in there mmm no one I appreciate that and it seems that you've gone and done some neighborhood consultation as well spoken to the community association I know I haven't spoke to them I stopped them I spoke them on phone and the individual mr. Olin i believe yes i see that in the file that you've had some interaction not necessarily spoken to them but you've certainly had some some contact with them yes yes sir I did I actually did speak to him and he conferred that he was in no disagreement with it at the first time that I spoke with them and then I seen the letter that he did send in and say stating that he was not in favor mm yes well I appreciate that that that you put that effort in and commend you I prepared to listen to the rest of my colleagues in here what their thoughts are also i wish i could package of verbal verbal discussions too because the individual at 13 16 is in agreement and the individual that has five lots behind my property is also in favor of it so like i said i wish i could package of verbal agreement but unfortunately count I appreciate that thank you thank you worship thank you very much an older and more just for clarification in the proposed amendment it does suggest that office uses must only be located within the building existing on the site as of a data path to the spy law so presumably and I think it does say that in the report as well if the building were to be torn down the office use would no longer be permitted alderman Chabot thank you worship mr. Joel food thank you for being here today m so my question to you is similar in nature to what all the memoirs questions were and I'm just wondering why you would have chosen to go to this land use designation rather than possibly looking at a DC with that use that you're seeking primarily to be in compliance with as a as a permitted use so not quite understand your question because we are going for a DC but a DC with CC mhm as opposed to what your current designation is which is our one right no sir it's a CC mhm it's CC mhm so you just look at for what higher density or note just for a just for that permitted discretionary correct yes okay so just looking for that use yeah just for an office used in the existing building sir I can sorry I thought that was at r1 zone areas I didn't it was a one-time in RM seven which is held in our actual land use was changed to the 1p 2007 I didn't make any notes on this particular file which is why I'm not all that familiar with it i usually make notes on things that I'm not supportive of and obvious i had no comments put on this one so thank you for your answer and thank you keeping the question sir thank thanks alderman Chabot mr. Joffe maybe I can just ask since you raised when you purchase the property it was rm7 correct and at that time your understanding was the rm7 allowed you to have this office use yes sir enema zoning was changed on you yes sir okay alderman alderman Mar you probably don't have more questions here do you okay in that case I'll ask you another the office use you're looking for will you get lots of sort of clients or customers will there be any traffic or parking impacts no I don't blue so sir okay great any other questions for mr. Joffe you thank you very much for being here sir thank you for having me anyone else wish to speak in favor of this proposal anyone wish to speak in favor of the proposal anyone wish to speak against the proposal you worship members of council my name is rob taylor and i'm president of beltline communities i'm here today representing beltline planning group the standing committee that deals with City circulations with respect to this land use re-designation beltline finds itself in a highly unusual situation this is the first and only one that beltline Planning Group has ever opposed beltline planning group has occupy has operated for seven years now and for another three years before that as a collaboration between the former cannot and victoria communities why then would we oppose this application well I'll start by telling you that I'm going to make a slippery slope stay an edge of the wedge kind of argument I'm not really very fond of that but its necessary it's necessary because the original intent of the blueprint for the Beltline the document that council authorized to be the basis of land use and development regulation in our community district has been incremental II stretched and formed first through the language of the ARP then in the technical language 1p 2007 and then again in the CPC recommendation before you it's necessary because this approval could well lead to others that would further torture the original purpose of allowing limited commercial unit uses within the small primarily residential areas of the bell line on a discretionary basis this is the discretionary use so it seems entirely reasonable to return to the intent of the rules that were working with here the primarily residential district was created in the beltline with two purposes the first was to preserve the character of the existing residential areas south of 12th avenue north of 12 Avenue was intended primarily to be mixed use and second was to accommodate certain kinds of commercial or quasi commercial uses in support of that character it's the second purpose that's relevant here the object of introducing limited commercial unit uses into into the primarily residential district was to support and I emphasize that word support two things that would enhance Bell lines primary primarily residential areas one compatible nearby neighborhood scales services for residents like a corner store in the ground floor of a high-rise and other similar things and to preservation and renovation of older historic or character buildings through reuse in low intensity commercial applications regardless of who might use them for instance accountants or financial advisors approving this application does not achieve either of these goals this office used mid block on 15th Avenue does not provide neighborhood services for residents nor does it preserve a character or historic building that might otherwise be lost while it's true that care has been taken that this mid-90s duplex will not look commercial except maybe for the sign the facts remain this is not a character or heritage building it does not provide a neighborhood service it is a commercial encroachment and it's one without a queer policy justification one neighbor provided their endorsement because the appearance of the existing building won't change that makes sense so far as it goes however it appears that this along with the loss of use of the site is redeveloped is also the rationale of the development authority and the CPC in belt lines you this rationale is not sufficient to justify by approving a discretionary land use that could very well lead to further problems with commercial encroachments across the district in our view it's not okay to say that anything can be commercial so long as it doesn't look commercial I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have especially if they're about how the intent of belt lines primarily residential land use concept became distorted or if they're about the extent and nature of other existing commercial conditions on the Block in question thank you for your consideration Thank You mr. Taylor out questions for mr. Taylor alderman Mar Thank You mr. Taylor I must admit a little bit of surprise when I got your your note and that of mr. Craig's because I think this is the first time since I've been alderman that the Beltline community has ever said no to anything it is from mustard seed halfway house the the spirit of beltline has always been bring it on hasn't it yes been very very supportive of everything that's that's coming so if this was a heritage building for example beltline planning group would be supportive of it and would it would it not indeed and if this was a live-work concept beltline planning group would also be in support of that yes but in this particular instance you feel that this is a is really a commercial creep into one of the residential components of of the neighborhood it very much so and if I could put up this or perhaps the map that's there would be fine the image note that on fourteenth Street there they who made that bigger mercial zone extends rather deeply into the block already that's because of tumors down on the corner wellington in dorset wellington at the west end of the site is a long rectangular 17 story apartment building and its oriented the the long flat faces are east and west so it divides off the strip mall from the residential part of the block quite nicely the way it sits it's actually a rather unusual planning success from not here in that respect so introducing commercial in the western part of the block we would definitely see as an encroachment note also that the primary residential district there is quite small there are four of them in beltline they're all quite small because our primary intent was to move to a high-density mixed-use urban community at the same time it was a very strong desire to maintain the character of those older existing residential areas so our fear is that this kind of encroachment will spread into the others now and I appreciate that this application also does not have any mixed-use or or any of these things that that would make it more acceptable to the community is that not the case that's correct those are my questions Thank You version Thank You alderman Mar alderman Chabot did I accidentally turn your light off did you have questions for mr. Taylor alderman Farrell Thank You mr. Taylor I appreciate what you're saying I have a question though and please correct me but a few months ago maybe longer we had a similar question come up with a development on 13 by the park and I remember the planning department was very reluctant to put residential on the I think it I can't remember the name I think it was hotel mine or Centurions that don't what your thing and I seems to me the planning department wanted to put residential on the main floor of that because it was one of the residential precincts and they were worried about erosion of residential as well and the community supported that application somewhat to my surprise and and asked for a i think it was drinking establishment medium or large that was allowed there so can you explain the difference so i can have me make my decision i can certainly try but I'm gonna have to wind back a bit in time and I could be completely I could have my memory could be distorted but I don't think well I i I'd actually if you'll indulge me for a moment I want to start in 2003 when the blueprint for the Beltline I came before council there are a few faces here that were present then associated with it were actually roughly eight authorizations but the one I want to focus on was one that provided for the community to regularly come forward with a report on the ongoing success of the ARP n to update it that didn't happen and that's really from our view how we got into this Jam both with commercial encroachments and hotel minor I didn't mention hotel minor but it largely because we're from a policy perspective we'd like to view it as a residential use but I'm talking about the uses on the main floor is where the debate was not on the hotel use because I agree with you it still it's still may be Knightly but it's still a place to to sleep but I'm talking about the commercial at the ground level and the administration was concerned about commercial at the ground level yes and and and in in that particular case the reason I went back is in that particular case we had had a desire over some time to make an adjustment that particular site is on the on the very corner of primarily residential and we had wanted to make an adjustment to introduce more flexibility for that particular site with with an application of the sort you described in mind and that's really why we supported it I from a purely logical technical perspective we probably ought not have because it was in the primarily residential zone so in the eyes of the community then you're you would see these sites is different and you would like this I mean I've heard you well ones at the edge and one is more central to to the prime of primarily residential district they we had made the argument for quite some time that we need some additional flexibility around around the edges either to push primarily residential out or to pull a little bit more mixed use in and that was accommodated in the ARP process but the specifics the details of it were not updated on an ongoing basis as as development unfolded in the community okay thank you thank you all during Farrell alderman Carra with questions for mr. Taylor thank you in worship and mr. Taylor thank you for your presentation you have the ability to sort of through alderman Farrell's questions backtrack a little bit and discuss believe you put the row version of the belt lines original intent with regards to their residential policy is there anything you'd like to add to that that's pertinent to our discussion today that's pertinent to the particular land use or that's pertinent to the overall situation yes the latter i'm giving you the leeway to well thank you sir i will take you up on it we would like to see those 2003 authorizations revisited and we'd like to see them revisited for a number of reasons we we believe that it beltline got in the game of improving the quality of community engagement with administration early on we believe we found some formulas that are worthy of testing and we really haven't had the opportunity to do it please apply that to this situation is it or not is it a play well in it no it's really more appropriate to the it to the situation that alderman Farrell brought forward because in this case the current community view on on the nature and limits of this particularly primarily of this particular primary residential area remain the same as they were at the time that it was adopted okay next question commute alderman Mar put it to you that if this was a heritage home and it was an accountant firm that wanted to move in you would support it can you flesh that out so I have an understanding of the others yeah it's it's one of those to a policy principles on that are embedded in the ARP and emerged through the blueprint for the Beltline process one was to allow low intensity commercial uses for the purpose of encouraging preservation of historic and character properties and the other was limited in current incursions for neighborhood services things like a corner store or a coffee shop and on the ground floor of IRS beyond that the community had no intent on to encourage commercial use within these districts unless one considers hotel minor to be a commercial use as I said before we tend to think of it as residential lodging being a subsection of residential can I ask another question this maybe should have been better asked for the proponent so I'll ask his worship to jump in or you can just didn't just this seems to me to be the kind of application where it would have been a Don't Ask Don't Tell type situation that wouldn't have long reaching implement impact on the land use of the site of what circumstances brought this forward concern about precedent I know that it said and that it's it's technically correct that 11 land use is not based on the precedent of a decision on another but in reality i'm in all of us it continued to be comfortable doing what we've done before and on the ground I precedent it plays a very significant role in what unfolds on so our view is certainly that the the perspective put forward by hallmark you know it's not going to look comer so it will be ok that's the condo neighbor across the street it is perfectly reasonable on the surface and if it could be limited in some way to this one particular situation with a very clear assurance that we have a policy going forward it it might be fine but we don't because that that policy is is bent in in the implementation it's it's entirely possible to find the justification on inside of it to do this and to continue doing it and I would point out again that the primarily residential districts in n beltline were outlined the way they are because they're unique and they are very small as a portion of the of the overall community district there are literally thousands of locations where this business could locate without landing in the heart of one of the smaller primarily residential enclaves in the entire community thank you Thank You alderman Carra any other questions for mr. Taylor at miss Cheerilee thank you so much for being here and as always for all the work you do for the city thank you anyone else wish to speak in opposition to this proposal anyone else wish to speak in opposition all right then I'll close the public hearing and we will move to questions for administration and debate but first we need to get the motion on the floor anyone moving the administration recommendations Thank You alderman Lowe do I have a seconder thanks alderman Jones Alvin low very simply you worship we had a pretty good goal at this at Planning Commission I'll move the recommendation of commission and three readings the bottle thanks alderman Lowe others I actually will do have a question for mr. cope myself so maybe I'll ask what the rest of the lights are coming on mr. cope mr. cope we heard that the previous zoning designation for this property rm7 allowed this office use is that your understanding that would be not entirely correct the rm7 did have a provision for office uses in the districts however they were limited to major roads this is not considered a major road not just their g major road thank you I'll pauldron mar you worship now that it's been moved I'm going to have to I'm asking my colleagues to support me when I say that there do not support this application for the various reasons that we've heard the community speak out on first of all it is commercial creep this is I understand that the area of beltline is not a community neighborhood in ways that most of us would consider it however it is still a neighborhood it is still an area where we are encouraging Calgarians by the thousands to come and live to separate and have commercial ventures in the heart of a neighborhood is something that would not be tolerated if we were talking about Mackenzie town or if we were talking about Tuscany or any other suburban area there is no supportive community or ancillary built function to this building other than the fact that that it is going to retain its outward appearance of being a residential building this is something that calgary planning commission i know wrestled with and I know that administration has as well but my community is spoken to me and I will respond it is commercial creep it is precedent setting and for that I will not support it and I urge you not to audit thank you for watching thanks other and Mar alderman Carra yeah this is a question for mr. cope and what I would love from you you gave a very brief report and recommended the movement from CPC could you give me a synopsis of this discussion or the point are how these points were addressed by CPC which led them to their proposal in a brief form Lee this is what we discussed and we realize this and this came into play but we made this decision based on this for these reasons and I would like to I just like to hear what CPC's reasoning was in brief memory serves me right I could be corrected by either alderman Lowe or alderman Farrell there was not a lot of discussion on this item that Planning Commission the information that was presented is contained within the reports that are before you today as well in this particular case I think the impact was reviewed in terms of parking potential and impact on need on the adjacent residential areas and on that aspect CPC recommended approval did CPC have this information from the Beltline in the form of a letter at CPC yes they did and that did not inform the discussion or debate of CPC nothing of any major consequence no okay well i think as coming out of the presidency of a community association that's also sort of received similar treatment and is very worried about commercial creep and understanding the position that the Beltline community is coming from I will be supporting alderman Mar and not supporting this thanks alderman Carra alderman Keating thank you your worship going back to looking at the pictures it looked like it was vacant and if so how long and what were the previous uses and was there ever an office in this building I cannot confirm that there is ever an office that we didn't know about in the building at the present time it was for residential uses you can see a light on in the second floor level of the subject site and I do know because i did have discussion with the individual next door that the left half of the building is occupied for residential purposes thanks alderman Keating anyone else before I call on alderman Lowe to close alderman Lowe to close well your worship response to a Holloman Quran with due respect to cope to what some discussion of commission it did limit itself to the movement of commercial into a residential precinct but it also acknowledged if i recall correctly the fact that there was an office there had been for some time and at that if you take a look at the vote I think it was 43 the past commission pasta and again if i recall correctly it was a use that it was existing it wasn't altering the appearance of the building wasn't altering the residential precinct to any degree or extent parking was not an issue and so it that was way at the end of the day Commission albeit split but Commission did give you it and again if you take a look at the report you'll find I moved it and Commission elected to support me on moving ahead with it on this basis the I find the alderman cross-questioning of the language and what CPC did around it kind of interesting I'm not quite sure what to do with it I'm also mindful of what he said think of the last one about difficulty that da be has with bylaws that come to it well da be rules with bylaws and evidence period and that's a but that's sort of where it comes from I spent long enough they're managing that thing so it I'm not mindful of your comments and I'm not sure how we reflect that in a report to Council or necessarily even if we necessarily do one of the things that CPC does again for your information alderman Carra is it will invite any member who votes either for or against but generally speaking against a motion to submit their reasons for voting to the secretary to mr. Cole and you will find my comments when I vote again something's true and throughout the records of CPC thank you thanks alderman Lowe to the question man on the recommendations of the administration on CPC 2010 132 are we agreed opposed call the roll please alderman Keating yes alderman Lowe yes old man MacLeod no alderman Mar no alderman Pincott yes alderman pootmans no alderman Stevenson no alderman Carra no ownership oh yes Holden colley-urquhart no alderman Demong no old men pharoah no alderman Hodges Oh alderman Jones mayor Nenshi yes that's lost you worship you I should moved follow bottle loops file seconder I'll turn pink otter we agreed agreed oops that then takes us to CPC 2010 133 you worship respectfully you're going to call a pose on it sorry oh well i'm sorry i thought i did call vote oh I'm sorry are we agreed to file any opposed okay post on which you go thank you all right so that then takes us to CPC 2010 133 good afternoon your worship I'm Kim Hartley and this is mr. Mori Lowen we are with the land use bylaw sustainment and we'll be doing a joint presentation today on the calgary planning commission's recommendations textual amendments before you introduce a new permitted use contextual semi detached dwelling in the residential contextual 12 dwelling RC 2 district as background to this amendment in 1988 single-detached info guidelines for established communities were introduced the land use bylaw was subsequently amended to make infill development discretionary in the established areas every new infill development was reviewed with discretion by the early 1990s the guidelines were updated and land use bylaw TPA d incorporated the policy as permitted use rules referred to as modest development permitted use modest single detached and semi-detached developments were guaranteed approval if they met the rules discretion was only applied when an applicant chose to build outside of the modest rules phalanges by law 1p 2007 framework continued with the permitted use approach to encourage redevelopment by providing a permitted use envelope in the developed areas the developed area comprises a large portion portion of the city and is white in this diagram when bylaw 1p 2007 was approved a contextual single detached dwelling was included as a permitted use in the developed area the rules for setback height and privacy mirrored the policy in the low-density residential housing guidelines and respected the adjacent homes on February 8 2010 council approved amendments to simplify the contextual single detached dwelling rules to ensure the intent of the bylaw framework was achieved and to capture more permits as permitted uses homeowners may choose a permitted use process as a contextual single detached dwelling or they may build outside the permitted use envelope as a single detached dwelling their application is then reviewed in a discretionary process with guidelines policy and sound planning principles applicable to the decision on april twenty six twenty ten council adopted several recommendations from an independent review of the bylaw and directed administration to amend the city of calgary lime juice by law to include contextual design standards for semi-detached residences currently semi detached dwellings are discretionary use in the developed area to respond to councils direction we met with industry and community stakeholders three times did an analysis of a year's worth of semi-detached development permits and evaluated the best practices of nine other municipalities based on the information collected in the feedback we received the rules were developed to ensure the approaches as simple as possible the amendment provides permitted use semi detached dwelling options in the same envelope as the permitted use single detached dwelling mr. Lowen will outline the proposed rules similar to the contextual single the facade of each unit must be articulated this means as a porch or other element which projects the recesses the principal front and rear facades of each unit must also be staggered a minimum of point six of a meter that's about two feet the front sap setback rules are the exact same as all other low-density residential uses in the developed area the setback the two adjacent homes are averaged allowing a 1.5 meters step forward that's about a five foot step forward from the average in this example house 1 has an eight meter front setback house 2 has a 5 meter front setback we average those numbers subtract a meter and a half resulting the 5 meters setback the distance from the front property line to the rear of the building is building depth building depth changes to reflect the surrounding context building depth is based on the average of the two adjacent homes allowing a 4.6 meters step back that's about 15 feet a building depth of 60 percent of the parcel link is always guaranteed in this diagram the two adjacent homes have a shorter building depth so the sixty percent of the building of the parcel length applies the parcel depth is 36 point five meters times that by sixty percent resulting in a 21-point nine metre building depth in the next diagram the buildings have larger building depth and we'll use the averaging to determine the rule house 1 has a 17 media building depth house to a 22 me building depth we add 4.6 meters meaning the allowed building depth is 24.1 meters at 926 square feet main floor area a reasonably sized dwelling unit is accommodated in both examples both have room for flexibility and design or to address specific site constraints and allow for unique architectural variation maximum building height ranges from eight point six to ten meters the same as all other low-density residential uses the rules addressing privacy and balcony location are also the same as the contextual single-detached going in the low-density residential districts all narrow parcels require to motor vehicle parking stalls the contextual semi-detached rolling requires two parking stalls to wreck as feature subdivision potential the graduates friends subdivided semi-detached developments always require a size relaxation to accommodate for parking stalls a one square meter revision to the maximum garage size will eliminate this technical relaxation pre subdivision in the low-density residential districts parcel coverage controls both the building mass and the landscaping the parcel coverage rule is the same as all other low-density residential uses at forty-five percent individual homeowners can then choose how to landscape the other fifty-five percent of their lot this diagram accurately reflects the space available on a parcel for landscaping the land use bylaw does not include any regulations on how individuals should choose to landscape their yards there is no indication that there is a long-term issue with landscaping I'm just on page apologies it is reasonable that trees will be removed to allow for construction historically new homers have landscaped their yards after occupancy and over time landscaping reflects personal preferences of the homeowner whether it be a garden for vegetables or trees provide privacy and shade testing shows that a 180 square meter which is about a 1900 square foot house or dwelling unit can be accommodated to be built with the proposed rules this dwelling size is consistent with the average size of context Emmy detached dwelling built in 2009 this unit size was confirmed through industry testing testing of development permit applications approved in 2009 indicates that approximately forty percent of these applications would meet the proposed rule these photos illustrate some examples of semi-detached developments built in 2009 which meet the proposed rule a reasonably sized contextual semi detached dwelling can be approved consistently consultation with community and industry stakeholders confirm that it is reasonable for a contextual semi-detached rules to be based on the current rules for contextual single detached dwellings a letter of support from the CH ba as well as a letter from the FCC's contained an attachment to the contextual semi detached dwelling encourages sensitive redevelopment while providing predictability and certainty for homeowners and builders we looked at the issue of landscaping and determined that the following elements would be required public consultation and a citywide inventory of all existing trees on almost 300,000 low density residential parcels decisions would need to be made on the type of file all required likely separate from the land use bylaw a landscaping permitting system and opportunities for discretion and relaxation with potential policy guidelines staffing likely arborists public education so homeowners would be aware of the landscaping permit and requirements fees and timelines inspection enforcement and appeals your worship the Calgary Planning Commission recommends that council adopt the proposed amendments give three readings proposed bylaw 37p 2010 and direct administration to monitor for a one-year period the level and effectiveness of the proposed contextual semi detached dwelling and report back to council thank you very much miss Hartley mr. Lowen we're still in public hearing so questions for clarification to administration all burn mark alderman Hodges yes thank you worship I find it interesting that the presentation made to us this afternoon is an argument that this is a logical continuation of the previous proposed bylaw amendments a council adopted but my question is related to the fact that this is in fact a fundamental change for the r2 district of the RC two districts or across the city and not a pilot project which the Planning Commission motion would be best directed to a a review in one year are you seriously saying that if the you find some real issues as you did with a modest building envelope in the RC 2 district that you'd bring a report back to reverse this process a year from them having conducted this change encourage council to adopt this change on a citywide basis in worship I think we're saying that we have some confidence from the framework that this was the direction to move towards a permitted use type of approval process what we are suggesting is that it's reasonable for a semi detached dwelling to be within the same envelope as the current contextual single detached envelope and that would be the extent of our boat now interior I agree with you but the reality is as I recall the analysis presented to council several years ago was that the number of applications that came in in the modest building envelope area was much less than the applications you had to deal with on a discretionary basis and that's why you don't hear much discussion about the modest building envelope anymore I think your worship we agree and since that time we found that there's been a change we found that I guess the discretionary semi detached dwellings are currently comprising about thirty-eight percent there twenty-five percent of our of our infill development which would include other forms such as single and so with that we found in talking with the communities as well that there does seem to be an interest in this type of movement and I am sure there is an interest in this okay now in the realm of consultation is there a problem with and I've asked this before to the chair perhaps mr. Watson would like to answer this question is there a problem with somebody picking up the phone and contacting a member of council I don't recall any consultation whatsoever with members of council I've got twelve thirteen percent of the applications in 2009 in my area but never once ever heard from planning department it's very through the chair you're suggesting that there should have been a discussion with members of council don't have to agree with us recalls the current members of council but at least there could be an effort there could be an effort at communication that's all I'm saying Johnson's as we do end up dealing with citizen complaints on the issues well absolutely and through the chair I don't believe this piece of work was confidential by any means and certainly has gone through three times in the community and through Planning Commission and now at the public hearing I apologize if we didn't extend personal invitations that have conversations however quite often members of council seek me out or seek out the staff and have conversations yes it's true I think on a citywide policy that's being proposed here that would have been a good idea to do that mr. Watson well I think one of the things that I could a July await I await an invitation though on the next round of one be 20 7 land use bylaw discussions well perhaps you did do raise a good point we are as I've said before to this council and I think it's a very positive thing we have been bringing forward almost every I'd say every two or three months changes to the bylaw in order to bring the bylaw up and continuously improve it and I'd be happy to circulate the various amendments that are in work really now and invite any members of council that have about it contact us but in order that we can make this bylaw a real live document that actually meets not only the requirements of the community associations but also the development industry and starts to lay the foundation for some of the things that we see in new MBP we have to continuously change in model and I and I don't question it mr. Watson I just like to be on the list somewhere you'll be on a list earlier earlier preferably than after the fact things you'll be getting a list oh I think you're on the list now all right now I just um alderman Carra questions of clarification thank you your worship first off great presentation guys I really appreciate the in-depth sort of clearly articulated and laid out approach that you did magnets I think it's a good example get a couple questions for you about public process can you tell us about the public process certainly we held three meetings more than 80 community associations were invited the meetings occurred near the end of august and into early or mid-september i guess we received emails we spoke with people we invited the inner city builders council to participate and they these were actually joint meetings one of the first times we've done that yeah can you sort of not the fact that you held a meeting but what was the nature of the consultation oh the nature it's all outlined in them I guess it would be an attachment to the CPC report there's details on what information was covered at each of the three meetings in advance of the meetings we set an agenda we also presented background material for the information of the attendees after the meeting we would send a summary of the discussions that we had and that information was emailed to all of the 80 Community Association representatives we didn't hear back that we missed them mark on something or that we confused an issue and then we would proceed based on that with the next meeting following with an agenda holding the meeting and then a summary of the discussions after that so what percentage do you think going can you characterize how much do you think what you presented to us today changed as a result of those consultative meetings and hearing from on the ground community associations that are that are there at the grassroots level well we actually made we went to probably pretty great efforts to not presuppose the outcome when we held our first meeting they were asking us many community reps were asking us for our opinions we purposefully held off so that we could get the opinions of the representatives and the industry stakeholders I guess quite a bit I think directly contributing discussions were held on the concept of staggering the units and on the concepts of unit articulation many of the communities didn't want the buildings to peer cookie cutter they wanted the flexibility for more unique designs to occur based on whichever community they represented there was also a lot of discussion on building depth we were able to provide some information so those figures changed a bit as as we got input from from concerned residents on that kind of element when you say those figures you mean the kind of mathematical formula that you guys developed to sort of account for degree of articulation and depth from the street knows more so the clarification on what the issue actually was is the rear yard amenity area more important than the front setback area where's the value in any change or dimension that we come up with what is the what is the intent of the proposed regulation interesting okay one other question he said you benchmarked against nine other cities which were those cities and what was what was the benchmarking I got a list sorry it's a big report yeah and I apologize for not having those at my fingertips right now tip of my tongue right now your worship we focused originally on other Alberta municipalities as their housing basis about the same age as our own so they're starting to see infill developed the same generations as their own so we looked at edmonton Red Deer left bridge and medicine hat we also looked at Burlington Winnipeg London Mississauga these are communities that we often look at a based on their size and demographic and the nature their housing stock we like to look at the similar communities each they also did some additional research into Vancouver and Toronto their housing stock is considerably different than ours but we look at some of their other regulations as well like well specifically communities did raise the issues around landscaping and one to Ruiz and we're back we're still in the public hearing process so we will take others who wish to speak in opposition to this proposal others who wish to speak in opposition yes sir ah and some copies good afternoon afternoon your worship members of council my name is David Baker I'm the planning director of the Montgomery Community Association I did attend two of the three community input sessions that were held and I have to say that they were very very well held they were responsive the city planners listened they heard and they took very seriously the comments that the communities had the reason I'm speaking against the proposal today is not for what's in the proposal but what has been omitted in our opinion which one so cutting right to the chase the Montgomery Community Association feels that proposed permitted use rules for semi detached dwellings will permit development which is not compatible with established community intentions for redevelopment quality of design quality of finished material and building massing may be easily compromised by developers seeking only to meet minimum standards our recommendations are that area redevelopment plans somehow be addressed in this process and that some sort of rules be made to address minimum massing and aesthetic considerations so just for your context Montgomery is situated in Northwest Calgary we share a river valley location with our neighbors in Parkdale to the east bowness to the west and varsity to the north Montgomery had in 2009 six percent of all of Calgary's rc2 development permits there's a calculation which I did at the bottom of the sheet of it could slide up Ollie them these numbers are also based on census data from from 2009 showing the number of dwellings in each community so I took the communities with the highest percentage and what it shows is that Montgomery size combined with the percentage of development says that there is a very intense pressure in Montgomery for rc2 development page four and five are a list of all development permits we have reviewed in Montgomery since 2006 rarp was adopted i think around 2007 the simple point I wanted to make is at the top of page four we have reviewed 45 semi-detached homes so that's 90 units of those 88.9 percent were built by developers single-family homes we've reviewed 25 24 of them were developed by the homeowner who owned the land or had already lived on the land or had bought and was moving into the community it's only four percent of single-family homes are by developers a simple point on this page is that there is a different motivation for constructing when you're building for yourself or when you're building for profit and our community association has no qualms with profit we have no qualms with with new development but there are different motives and different decisions made in the process page 1 a sore a shuffle this one back into the deck is one page out of our area redevelopment plan which in many aspects which refers to high quality residential development primary consideration considerations are high quality design and attention to detail the design the aesthetic the what does it look like on the streetscape this matters and this cannot be undervalued in this process just a very quick history of our community for you all Montgomery was originally subdivided in the first decade of the last century it was largely undeveloped until the post-war era in the 1950s lots went for a relatively good price compared to what was in the city Montgomery was a hamlet at that time many of the homes were built at that time were seven and eight hundred square foot bungalows some of them the ones he had more money would have sellers underneath or crawl spaces a lot of them only had slab on grade construction of course there were no services at the time so everyone was on septic this was this was the origin of Montgomery in the mid 60s the city annex Montgomery brought running water street lights pave the streets but in the ensuing decades from the 50s when this was built out they were small lower-end houses and redevelopment stagnated non-resident property owners took on the properties for revenue purposes and frankly let them run into the ground and what we saw going into the late 90s in Montgomery was urban decay your time is up mr. Baker but if you want to wrap up quickly the development that happened in the late 90s was very simple it had very little aesthetic value whatsoever plastic houses essentially vinyl boxes 15-year asphalt shingles plastic windows the lowest possible denominator of building materials that could be possible was what was going into our community after our area redevelopment plan came into place this has become the standard in the last four to five years for semi detached housing and this is fantastic but this has come because we have directed it so on not because we've left it in the hands of others do it on the next not only in residential but commercially we have new commercial buildings new apartment buildings doctors offices restaurants with patios this is fantastic and this has all happened in the last four years the impetus the reason that people are coming to Montgomery now is because the aesthetics of our residential streets have improved so greatly people feel that this is the up-and-coming community so the aesthetics matter the lower page is one done through the ARP preservation of existing trees quality of aesthetics use of materials building articulation the the houses above which we're done in the late 90s would pass given the proposed legislation that's in front of you today and not only Montgomery could these come back literally these could be in any community in the city without any discretion so our observation or conclusion established communities are somewhat like suburban developers we don't own the land as such but as community residents we have that same vested interest we work with a multitude of small business interests who invest and wish to profit from development in our communities while we the community associations maintain the expectations for the overall common benefit suburban land developers that the Karma's and the ones doing the the outer outskirts they know the importance of managing multiple builders and they put in place architectural controls for exactly these reasons not just the footprint they manage what they should look like because it matters to them it gives the builders certainty that the guy's not coming in next door putting up schlock because that would undermine the value of the quality work that's being done and Montgomery's just to you that communities be given the same kind of consideration that something even on a small level be done to address the aesthetics of semi-detached houses your worship thank you very much mr. Baker I've got a few people who want to ask you questions here so we'll start with alderman Lowe thank you during the first year experience with the rc1 contextual did you how many did you review then I don't know that we've seen any you don't know okay so I guess my question is have you had any failures with those I don't think we've had any I mean we have probably 40 or 50 houses under construction right now and I you know don't walk around monitoring everyone so okay no I'm serious people and the reason the reason I asked the question is that one of the very important considerations about this was the fact that after year we know we've directed at Commission we demand directed the authority to go and review the progress is I think what we're looking candidly for is examples of failure where something didn't work where your horror story manifested itself so I thought that's the genesis my question about the RC ones thank you excelled Herman low alderman Carra thank you worship please pardon me i'm suffering from a cluster headache right now so coming off like i'm asleep but i'm not i'm just in pain very interested in what you're saying and I just wanted to thank you for your presentation and thank you for making a very coherent a statement about the unbelievable value that Community Association bring in terms of establishing the brand their neighborhoods protecting that brand and creating value for everybody and I will be speaking to point similar to that in the debate that I just wanted to thank you for your time and effort and coming here today thanks alderman Hodges thanks you worship um mr. Baker maybe you could just mention as part of your overview that obviously give or take forty percent of the land area in Montgomery is RC two that's correct sir almost Jeff and so that's why this is the issue that it is for you and for the residents in the community it's not as though even though the majority of the houses or single family in fact but the forty percent of the land use is in fact RC 2 that's correct and it will become that the face of our community in the future what's being built now Thank you Thank You alderman Hodges anyone else for mr. Baker thank you so much for taking the time today mr. Baker very helpful anyone else wishing to speak in opposition to this proposal anyone else speaking in opposition good afternoon your worship council members and staff I do have a handout here that I would like permission to have distributed to council members my name is Doug Roberts robt RTS I represent the Richmond Nob Hill Community Association average man Nob Hill is a an inner-city community that straddles crowchild trail between 17th Avenue and through twenty thirty third avenue southwest this picture I've put up is a picture that was taken from the 26th Avenue crowchild overpass we feel our community is currently on the front lines a residential redevelopment activity our community has been the subject of over 60 development permit application since january of this year the community association welcomes the redevelopment activity and the resulting reinvigoration and renewal of our community however we've noticed one disturbing trend is that developers often propose to cut down more existing trees than necessary to accommodate their projects and often fail to provide for adequate new replacement trees to be planted to address these concerns the community association has made the preservation and enhancement of the communities urban forest canopy one of its primary objectives and priorities over the past year and to this end we set a record apparently by planting 140 new public trees in our community under the city's neighborhoods program which we understand was more than any other community previously had planted in the history of that program in addition we've also addressed the issue of retention and planting of trees in our comments on virtually every sub every development permit application that we've reviewed in the course of the past year unfortunately our efforts in this latter regard have received minimal support for my other development and building approvals or the subdivision and development billboard which we actually find very puzzling given that the richmond area redevelopment plan the city's infill guidelines in the city's new municipal development plan or all support the preservation of trees whenever possible indicate in the case of the infill guidelines the planting of new trees of equal value to replace any existing trees that cannot be preserved in the redevelopment process and the fact that section 35 of the land use bylaw states that the development authority must take these policy documents into effect into consideration when developing development permit reviewing development permit applications despite this lack of support the community's efforts over the past year to promote the retention and planting of trees have actually been quite successful as can be demonstrated from the handout charts these charts summarize tree related statistics gathered from the 37 development permit applications for residential redevelopment projects in richmond nob hill which have been approved by the development authority during the period from january to november of this year I should point out seventy percent of those applications were for semi detached dwellings which seems contrary to the city's indication that semi-detached is I think in the thirty to forty percent range overall I'd like to direct council's attention to the second chart on the handout which describes the Richmond Nob Hill private tree count just for your information this way to read this chart generally from left to right the first column on the Left represents trees existing trees prior to redevelopment the second column is what the developer has proposed in their development permit application third column is what we came back with in our comments to the file manager and the fourth column is what eventually was approved by Development Authority as you'll see from this chart left to their own devices the developers are not overly inclined to preserve trees the seventy percent of the existing trees would have been removed in this process and it's also important to note that we when we put our comments back to the file manager we only asked for trees that we feel are good candidates for preservation ie they appear healthy and there appeared to be outside of the building envelope we don't ask for trees are in the middle of a proposed new garage or or house to be to be preserved our efforts just in the push back through the comment process we've managed to reduce the or to preserve an additional twenty seven trees over the course of the last year and result in almost twice as many new trees planted resulting in a thirty-eight percent increase in the total number of private trees on these Lots undergoing redevelopment compared to an overall twenty percent reduction in the total of number of trees based on the developers proposals themselves and just to look at the effect on the tree canopy same kind of chart showing the impact on the tree canopy one important thing to note here the blue charts the blue bars represent public trees so you can see very quickly from this then in our neighborhood public trees only represent approximately ten percent of the total residential trees in our neighborhood but as you see here as well that the community has been successful in its efforts over this past year to reduce the decline in tree canopy on these Lots undergoing redevelopment two fifty three percent as compared to a twenty-nine percent decline if we had not been involved in the process or had an opportunity to been involved so our concerns with respect to the proposed rules that are before you for contextual semi detached dwellings is that they do nothing to require or even encourage developers to retain existing trees or plant new trees and therefore provide absolutely no protection for ninety percent of our communities urban forest canopy if the proposed rules are implemented in their current form then a much greater proportion of the development permit applications for residential redevelopment in Richmond ovule will bypass the community completely preventing the community from continuing in its current role as protector of trees our request to this point through those public meetings that took place in August in September to have these rules something included to preserve the trees or help protect the trees or somehow address the tree issue tended to be rejected for two primary reasons one it was pointed out to us that if they did that then it would make these semi-detached rules different than the existing single detached contextual rules that were introduced earlier this year and of course those are not due for reef or review until next year secondly the city legal department has apparently is apparently concerned that the Alberta Municipal Government Act is not doesn't clearly give the city authority to enact a tree protection by law that would apply to private trees our view is that both of these stumbling blocks could be easily addressed by first of all delaying the implementation of these proposed rules until after the existing single detached rules are reviewed and then secondly in addition to any other recommended changes that might arise from that review of a single the existing single-detached rules incorporate into both sets of rules or even better yet into the land use bylaw itself applicable to all those low density residential development a landscaping requirement that would require adequate new trees to be planted unless sufficient existing trees are preserved as a longer-term solution we would like to see council direct city administration to work with the province of Alberta to see amend about amending the Municipal Government Act to include whatever additional language they feel should be in there in order to allow the city to implement a tree protection by law that applies to private trees I would be happy to address any questions thanks very much mr. Roberts alderman Mar thank you worship miss Roberts good afternoon thank you for coming I with respect to the contextual study overall certainly I spoke to to Liz about this earlier in the week with regards to the trees but is there anything beyond the trees in the contextual study that that Richmond Nob Hill is going to speak on or is this really just about the trees we have concerns with other things that we feel are not addressed adequately addressed under the proposed rules things such as context drainage are and overlooking there are some aspects in overlooking but we don't think they're adequate to address the concerns in our neighborhood we have decided however today to focus our efforts on the trees because you feel that that is the primary area in which the proposed rules fall short and you heard from one of the one of the developers today that was speaking about about trees and how they try to preserve and feel that that has a significant impact on their on their ability to sell their product do you have any comments with regards to that this is an example of a recent development proposal that was passed by the development authority as it turns out we didn't really know where these trees were because of course on the developers original proposal none of the trees were shown on the site plan so it was hard for us to determine where all of these trees were relative to the proposed new dwelling and garage we asked in our comments for the trees to be shown so that we could see where they were and then we could know which ones maybe were actually savable and also to know what the caliper size because of our understanding that with a good-sized tree spade you can relocate an existing tree up to 300 meters in caliper diameter 300 millimeters of caliper diameter without the tree even knowing it's been moved as it turns out in this case and we ended up at killing this one to the STA be they did finally provide us with a site plan that showed the trees and as it turns out all of the trees on this lot could have been preserved either in their current location or through the the use of relocation with a tree spade unfortunately before we got to sdab they were all gone and frankly this is too common an experience for us we're developers seem amino but we understand and we acknowledge there are some developers that are they do appreciate trees and do try and plan the round them there are unfortunately quite a few who just view them as an inconvenience and something that's in the way and as a result their initial proposal unless pushed is to clear cut the lock ok but that's interesting and I appreciate your showing us some context one other question if I was to play the devil's advocate whose tree is it belongs to the landowner right ok well that is but you believe that by having a tree policy if you will we would be able to save potentially up to seventy percent more is that what you're you're suggesting well we as a community association with apparently no authority at all have managed to save an additional 27 in our tree 27 trees over the course of the last 11 months I would love to see what we could do if we actually had the support of the city well you do have the support of the city insofar as that we as you mentioned earlier just supplied through the neighborhoods program 140 trees which you also mentioned was the most ever so I appreciate I appreciate your your comments and your thoughts and I know that alderman Pincott is proposing something so and I'm proposing something in a moment as well so you worship you would recognize me at the appropriate time thank you I sure will Thank You alderman Chabot if you wish it Miss Roberts you do acknowledge the fact that if someone were to choose to remove their trees from their private property prior to me than making application for a development permit that that's within their purview it yes I guess we understand that so this wouldn't hinder or alter that in any way no one we have heard that argument made that if we put a tree protection by law in place something that applied at the development stage or redevelopment stage that developers would be likely to come in and clear cut the lot before submitting their application so they don't have to contend that to contend with that what we would perhaps like to suggest as a route that might help address that is to impose a tree requirement that was sufficiently onerous that it would not require but encourage developers that if they happen to have a lot that already had trees on it to enact workaround leave those trees and as a result not have to to buy and plant as many new ones mm-hmm especially if that recommendation could limit the need for vegetation based on the size possibly of the existing vegetation yes that is correct for example one possibility and this is just something that we've come up with ourselves if there was a requirement for example on a standard 50 foot or 15 meter wide lot for a minimum of four trees with the minimum aggregate caliper size of 600 millimeters that would require if a developer wanted to go out and buy new trees to plant them to buy for 150 millimeter trees which are six inch diameter caliper which you can't get at sunnyside those you have to go to a tree farm to obtain and they're relatively expensive too to obtain and plant whereas if they already had an existing for example 300 millimeter tree 12 inch caliper tree that they could save that would satisfy half of the size requirement and then they'd only have to go out and plant 3 100 millimeter trees which can be easily obtained in planting thank you for your input here today appreciate those responses thank you thanks alderman Chabot anyone else for mr. Roberts Thank You mr. Roberts and thanks for these great stats and all the work that's how your community association is doing on this issue anyone else wish to speak in opposition to the proposal anyone else in opposition hello madam clerk will come from your worship and members of council my name is Karen Paul and president of the Britannia Community Association and a member of the FCC's urban planning committee I fully participated in the consultations for planet and the permitted use rc1 changes and I'm excited to be involved in planets first local area plan for the 50th Avenue Southwest corridor which includes the entire communities of el bollo Windsor Park and Britannia and these comp community's support my submission today so just how do we implement the planet vision in order to achieve a more sustainable City how do we preserve and enhance the character of established communities when that character is in large part defined by its public and private green spaces and tree cover as a city how do we double or triple our tree canopy which is a 70 year mdp target if the majority of the urban forest that we have is on private one last Saturday the silly the city facilitated an old a visioning exercise for the 50th avenue la p my takeaways from that session were that our three established communities are expected to absorb 30 percent more population and jobs in three years and a total of sixty percent more in 70 years time green was identified as a clear priority for redevelopment by the participants there was buy-in for intensifying the peripheries urban and neighborhood quarters and notes but the low density course of these communities are to be preserved so what will our communities look like in 30 or 70 years intensification will mean a loss of landscape Illaria that can support trees with wide canopies pants rooftop gardens just can't make this up infill development will mean that lot coverage will double to at least forty-five percent the maximum allowed in the contextual permitted use rules double car garages drives and patios will further infringe on Lance capable area the combined effect of reduced side yards and two story homes that cause shading will limit tree planting two kilometer species that odd little to the canopy with at least forty percent of in phils targeted to fall within the contextual rules for single and sammi's a huge gap is created in the ability of the city community associations and immediate neighbors to influence the tree canopy at the local level the lack of landscaping in the permitted contextual rules and fairly discriminates between new and redevelopment Greenfield low density multi-residential and discretionary infills all have mechanisms to address landscaping in the latter case communities and neighbors receive circulation of plans have the right to comment an appeal streamlining City DP processes is a great but recognize that it erodes these rights the net cost being loss of key elements that defined community character behind beyond building footprint and massing so one size doesn't fit all the urban forestry section of the empty NDP clearly acknowledges the value of trees many with real public economic benefits including stormwater energy water and air quality the MDP sets policies that include trees on private land and the target tree canopy in local area plants so the concern here is that without specific wording in the permitted use are c1 and RC 2 rules anything specified in the lap will be ignored our communities first experience with the permitted use contextual single infill illustrates these concerns and I would be happy to elaborate this olive oil I take real exception to the statement in the September 14 consultation summary that a rule that would require the replacement of landscaping would be cotuit us as landscaping can be altered prior to and after new home construction this is true but the time to influence trees is precisely at the time of redevelopment a tree-cutting by law as is implemented in many other progressive cities is a different matter but what is needed here in regards to contextual infills is by law wording linked to the development permit application and made a condition of occupancy it should set a minimum standard for suitable replanting meaning appropriate species selection and planting location given great changes obstacles exposure and existing landscaping as well as protection measures for private trees during construction if a homeowner wishes to go beyond that great our city is changing we're moving away from our rural roots inherent knowledge of tree culture and the dream of owning a big patch of land recognize that a tree is not just private property it can occupy the neighbors air and ground space it may impede that neighbor from planting another tree on an adjacent side yard and it certainly adds to the collectivist of the streetscape perhaps it is time for the city to take a more paternalistic view toward our urban forests to achieve the greater good for our future citizens in conclusion the planet vision won't be realized without attention to the issue of trees on private land and keep in mind that in achieving the tree planting target the city's long-term tree maintenance costs will be contained if the majority of the urban forest continues to be located on private property and also there is already provision for construction site visits by urban forests were public bowl of our trees so they could just add on the private inspections at that time thank you thank you very much miss Paul alderman Pincott oh thanks and thanks for being here hanging out so you've only spoken about trees in response to this and I think we talked earlier about how if we're going to do something around trees it can't just be around rc2 that it needs to be a broader policy which I think you agree with because ultimately Britannia doesn't have any rc2 no we don't but I'm speaking again on behalf of the LEP area which includes el bollo okay when's your part so so so what's before us today rrc to contextual guidelines we're going to address your concerns and I do have a motion arising actually from outside of this because just looking at it with the NRC to doesn't address the challenge it certainly doesn't do anything for Britannia would you be supportive of that of looking of addressing your concern not within the RC to contextual but more broadly than that hi yes I would but it would also be nice to have something in the RC to change that would at least protect trees that are to be retained that are identified on the site plan as being retained and again I speak to the experience that we've had with our first rc1 permitted use contextual and I'll than other than in Britannia or this example of trees around rc1 do you have our nbrc to contextual guidelines do you have any other comments other than just the trees Teresa's aren't main concern the setbacks I guess our communities are defined by the green space yeah and the setbacks that are allowed within the new contextual rules for singles and I assume they would apply as well to the semis are way beyond what our community standard is and that doesn't mean what's built today it's beyond what our community standard is that we're tolerating for new development in the communities ok great thank you thanks very much thanks miss Paul alderman Mar ok we'll hold that then anyone else for miss Paul thank you so much for being here miss Paul others to speak in opposition please others to speak in opposition good afternoon your worship members of council my name is Bob van huigan I'm the urban planner with the Federation of Calgary communities and I've heard a lot here this afternoon have scribbled all over my remarks so hope you'll forgive me if I casually stumble across them as you know is the Federation we can't speak for every community on every issue there will be differing opinions but we do try to offer a community perspective you have my letter initial letter to Planning Commission and as you have heard many community associations are still uncomfortable with contextual permitted in phils we've heard that conceptual rules that apply across the entire developed area the city might not actually serve the contexts of very different neighborhoods and situations planner discretion and community input is the way we've traditionally filled this gap between by law policy and context on the ground a different way to do this might be to develop community appropriate overlays and the land use bylaw that incorporate local policies as objective standards that bring ARP policy and bylaw implementation closer together I've talked about this before but more and more we we observe a gap between local policies that are often left many years out of date and by law implement viola and what's in the bylaw and how things are implemented this was recommended in last year's land use bylaw and process review report and I'm going to just report of that I hadn't planned to do so so I I hope I have the time this is from the Clarion report at present a RPS are considered during the review of discretionary approvals within stream for but an alternative is available some cities revise their bylaws to incorporate important aspects of approved area plans into objective standards that apply to particular types of development or particular areas those standards become part of the bylaw and by law checkers confirm their compliance during review this approach would require the city to decide what portions of a RPS intends to make objective requirements in which portions are non-regulatory goal or aspiration statements this change would put the City of Calgary closer to the mainstream approach allowing adopted plans to apply to both permitted and discretionary use of some expansion or variation on this sentiment might address some of what mr. Matsui and mr. Baker alluded to earlier I'm going to move back to my comments last April changes were made to the single detached infill envelope so they would capture about forty percent of applications the last few months is probably not enough time to judge success in the eyes of communities and the annual review is scheduled for this spring nevertheless these contextual permitted use for semi-detached was developed based on these rules starting in August to the extent the permitted contextual rules entice builders build modestly that's a very good thing as a large size of n fills and loss of mature landscaping are common issues but there's no review by planners and not circulate for comment and they can't be appealed they also don't have to adhere to a RPS of the infill guidelines therefore is very important that the bylaw rules be careful to require those things that are most important because these will be the only rules for the estimated forty to sixty percent of some you detached in phils and that is a change we've talked quite a bit about the issue of trees from a higher level perspect in which are not included in this even though they're a very important part of community context NORs as we've heard opportunity for dialogue between community planner and applicant that my positively influenced trees from a higher level perspective a core indicator of planet calgary his percentage of tree canopy according to the MDP the 1998 the canopy cover with seven percent in the 60 year target is fourteen to twenty percent and as we've heard an estimated sixty to ninety percent of trees and urban forests are on private land I expect the majority of plantable private land in Calgary is low density residential soft mature trees that are lost some infill development happens in order to address the MDP target I suggest the city needs a tree strategy including for low density in fills this is reflected in the urban forestry section the MDP which calls for quote an increase in the retention and planting of trees bushes and shrubs on private and public land and encouraging the planting of trees and green space part of new development and other policy is to quote further develop tree protection and planting measures to ensure maximum conservation of existing trees and the site design and layout of new buildings given the MDP canopy targets the apparent need to consider trees on low density lots to meet the target given the support provided by further policy development in the MDP and given the diminished opportunity to influence tree retention and planting due to the greatly increased number of permitted use low density and fill applications we recommend that council do pass emotion to work with internal and external stakeholders to investigate the issue of tree retention and planting particularly in low-density permitted use contextual infill developments and make recommendations and policy amendments to council no later than the spring because we don't want to wait any longer than is required to get something actionable and I think the industry would feel the same way thank you thanks mr. an weegin questions for mr. van week and alderman Mar that's for later or now question and again this is interesting that we have this huge contextual study and and what we're hearing from the communities and from the FCC strictly on trees virtually everything else you're good with in the report is that right so if we were to to create an amendment or do something specifically for trees for the most part what I'm hearing is that you're you're quite happy with it well let me let me let me let me back up a bit I guess there's a couple of things the first of all I think that the tree thing is something that was seen as sort of like an obvious and graspable issue that we might be able to effect some positive change on that would really help communities and it's also has some cover under the municipal development plan so that's that's very that's very positive what what we also heard for example from from from mr. Matsui mr. Baker and I've heard heard from others as well is more generally concern about the a concern about the contextual infill permitted in phils and I guess other permitted uses potentially as being insensitive to a local area policies and local rules I could come here and say well let's not you know let's keep this all discretionary but I've also heard from communities that they're not too happy about how discretions being applied when they have discretionary applications many of them expressed concerns that it's the bylaw that's that's really what rules and discretionary the discretionary review the info guidelines and the ARP s are not as effectual as they as they should be so so what am I to say I what I have what I have said is pointed out one thing that we found very interesting in the land use bylaw and process review report the Clarion report that talks about a way to sort of bring policy and by law together again in a way that seems to it seems to have been pulled apart and is perhaps not being well served now that's probably a bigger project than you want to tackle today but I hope it's addressed in the near future it would be a certainly a refocusing of efforts it might be a game-changer potentially it's certainly we're talking about but but today it be it would be very nice to have some some satisfaction on on the issue of trees Thank You old remember no I appreciate that and and thank you for your comments thank you mom thank you anyone else for mr. Ron Regan thanks very much mr. M Egan anyone else wish to speak in opposition to this proposal anyone wish to speak in opposition to this proposal all right then I'm going to close the public hearing and move to members of council with debate and questions for administration Aldrin Mar thank you your worship it seems I was just up here I have two questions one for law and then one for planning and if it with your permission I'd like to begin with law ms flowin with respect for this being on private property what what ability would we have as a municipality to be able to create some sort of legislation enforcing on private property enforcing a tree policy if you will okay thank you your worship it's an interesting question and there's a number of challenges because in terms of regulating new vegetation and new trees that of course can be accommodated under the municipal government act pursuant to land use bylaw that's not a problem you run into some practical difficulties though in terms of implementation and monitoring and enforcement which we can get into or discuss if you wish but in terms of regulating the protection of trees that becomes a little bit more difficult much like heritage buildings I am aware of some municipalities and different provinces that have what are actually called heritage tree protection bylaws and they have very different enabling legislation than we have in Alberta it can create great constraints on the redevelopment of property and that's something that needs to be thought through much like we have under the hair type that the historical resources legislation and so there are some jurisdictional concerns to address beyond that though provided that we could get over that hurdle again there's some practical implementation problems once you create a system that would regulate these types of trees and protecting protecting existing trees we run into enforcement issues and we need to be able to ensure that once we create expectations with that kind of legislation that we can actually follow through on it and it may appear simple at first glance but there are many different legal issues and I don't just in terms of jurisdiction I mean the practical enforcement of it right comes at no I appreciate that I appreciate that well with regards to that is a municipal has any municipality at all in Alberta using the same MGA that we are do they have is there any jurisdictions you're aware it has a municipal tree protection plant your button start walking still not working your worship I'm not aware of any municipality in Alberta that has a bylaw per se in terms of policies honestly I've never looked into that I don't know if there's voluntary policies that perhaps other councils have i'm not sure but again without the power of a bylaw behind it it's questionable in terms of its enforceability that's not to say it wouldn't be effective but it would really depend how it was structured what they were trying to achieve in terms of determining its effectiveness right no I appreciate that okay thank you miss Vaughn mr. Watson that this one mr. Watson a quick question for you then were we to look at some form of way to provide some form of protection for trees is there some way that we would be able to through planning incentivize development and redevelopment and protection of trees through that process have we looked at that we considered it at all well let's hear the chair of course there are ways that we can set the fire or try to encourage this the question becomes whether or not through regulations you want to do that and I pick up on this loans point once we set up rules and regulations there's got to be enforcement there's better these sources there's better ways of doing it nothing is impossible it just takes tax money and the ability to hire people to undertake this work mmm okay so this would be done from an enforcer don't even know if it's legal first of all the second issue is we don't we don't know how we would be able to enforce it in a practical sense but from an incentive perspective I'm very reluctant to say what people can do in their private property or cannot do under private property but I I do appreciate the fact that we want to retain as much of our tree canopy as possible so I'm looking for you and your department to see if there's some way that we could reach out to redevelopment and ensure that there is some way to incent development and redevelopment to keep and preserve that that level of tree canopy well certainly there's ways and through the one presentation from one of the community associations we saw that through their work there's been a lot of encouragement we can certainly encourage that also but again it's a matter of respect to the rights of private property owners and how far you want to impinge on that I think the creativity of Miss phone and others we can probably come up with something that could be done but once you're doing that then you're ready to the other side of that if you want this to actually happen it's better be resources and enforcement to make it happen this is all part of mr. van meeghan talked about planet before the Paul's leave before that we've got to find a way I would suggest that redevelopment is not at a disadvantage of new greenfield development mm-hmm and longer or the more we layer on policy and procedures on redevelopment in the inner city in the developed area the less chance frankly council you're going to see a switch between greenfield development and redevelopment and I'm certainly we want to work with the community association and the FCC or the next number of months talk about how we can do that but this layer of policy and regulation on top of regulation all effects like the time it takes for a single-family house to be built in the university versus a single family house on the edge and if that is the direction you want Calgary to go in Council we can certainly continue in that direction right now but I think there are bigger bigger things we have to look at over the next number of months and thank you Miss Watson and currently that is lagging behind in from Greenfield to inner-city about eight months isn't it on average well it depends I mean in a greenfield development you do not have to get a development permit at all whereas an inner-city development and a redevelopment application is about eight months which is uh well it varies i understand but all that is hardly we've made some great strides over the last number of last year and a half but certainly on some of these depending on the size and and some concerns that are expressed both by my department and by the community associations these can take a long period of time and then there's the appeal process potentially after that which again adds on top of that yeah okay thank you so much thank you ocean thanks alderman Mar alderman Pincott thank you one of the things we heard was that we we've done the change to rc1 and as many year yet so how I mean anecdotally hearing from some people that are seeing the changes that we made to the RC one contextual is is going very well so what would be I guess what what is what's the the logic behind not waiting to see a year or some results out of the changes in RC one so they could inform changes to the RC to Hartley your worship we actually were in the late summer beginning our review process and thus tingles and started looking at some very important issues with single detached and you have to address how we're going to engage the communities once again the involvement very important however the independent by law review did happen in April and council did make a notice of motion requesting that that the contextual semi be addressed so we've began looking at the contextual single and we can tell you that numerically they are hitting close to their forty percent target qualitatively we need to talk to the communities and to our planning staff to see qualitative we have those homes look and you have to get to that stage but right now we're respond two councils notice emotion to create a contextual semi-detached bubble ok do you and to go back to rc1 because I do think it's relevant do you anticipate that that there might be changes that we may need to make to the land use bylaw after a year probably not based on what the industry is hearing but what we're hearing from communities there were a lot of things that we're discussed during our engagement with communities and industries over the contextual single and some of those issues have arisen again over the contextual semi just some of the same concerns are there and there's definitely some things are going to be looking at but right now I think it's premature for us to suppose what we might be looking ok from your community from your engagement your stakeholder engagement on this did you target communities that were rc2 to and invite them to the table so so when we so Ramsey was at the table for that and nancy was invited I don't believe they made it to any of our session okay a gentleman from Inglewood who couldn't attend any of the sessions did send us a very detailed okay I did check the largest slice of the pie is altidore which is mine and they were involved in this now what about and I asked this question about the RC one as well because one of the one of the concerns that we hear from communities and community associations I will make that distinction community associations is the the loss of the ability to comment on development permits and one of the things that was asked and i believe it was ms paul around being circulated just for information not even for comment but just for circulation has that been undertaken at all you know on on on applications that fall within the guidelines and are permitted use all of the permitted use applications will be circulated to the community associations for their information right that is currently in practice and that is happening with the RC one that is happening with your RC one okay and that so that will continue as well for the RCT correct okay good thank you now we've it I find it interesting in your presentation you barely touched on trees and it and trees are the things that we've heard the most we rate from the the proponents the bill the builders spoke about trees and how they would love to see trees be protected and you know they will work to see trees be protected what are your comments on all of the talk about trees and and and how have how do you feel it you've addressed them in in the proposed changes your worship maybe we haven't addressed them as well as they should have been because of the limited scope of our direction right um we do see a real issue with purposeful legislation if you can come in in advance of any of the requirements like a development permit or you can get a demolition permit we want the legislation to be meaningful and purposeful so some of those preliminary discussions regarding trees and their protection on private land we're related to the opportunities that are available to the developer the homeowner now they can take out trees on their own land if they see fit reset ok so then from a planning perspective you would see any anything to do with something like trees would have to be legislated Lee driven to be applicable at a planning level I think as ms vulin has suggested it should be investigated I'm not a hundred percent convinced that this might be the correct spot because of the limited scope of the research there was no consultation we didn't advertise that we'd be looking at trees I mean it's a much bigger question and I think it if you've decided that that's where you'd like to go we should look at it with the MDP mandate urban forestry tree canopy strategy I mean there's that's where I suggest it might be a separate viola from lan zhu sinapi I don't all right or something that then could inform and we could actually add a subsequent date made changes to guidelines correct great um I will be following up that if you would recognize me for a modest motion arising thank you happy to do solder and pin code alderman Carra thank you your worship I've got a question just about sort of procedure Ian cope is the CPC this this reports coming out of CPC and Ian cope is the Secretary to CPC who presents but in this case we have a department that's a proponent of something presenting in Ian's copse dead mr. Watson through the chair your worship Ultima crop that's absolutely right not so much the department as proponent but the department is reporting on what CPC they were at CPC when we have technical policy issues we usually get the authors of the policy issue now had CPC gone the other way they'd be standing here recommending against the work they've done and that that's simply a matter of getting the people with the best knowledge in front of you counsel such a thing for Coke cannot isn't able to he's able to do the sort of more run-of-the-mill land use items but in terms of the kind of work that miss Hartley and miss Rowan have done that's expecting a bit too much room but your worship I think what really helped council is if we have a subcommittee and we have a calgary planning commission and that discussion is made then it would be very helpful in the report that's made to us to get a sense of what was discussed in synopsis what issues were sort of addressed through that discussion and then why the decision and the recommendation or the refusal was made I think that would really inform a better discussion and might even streamline this process on a high you know with I think they I think these guys gave an excellent report on the project that they were bringing forward but I'm not convinced that that brought us CPC's issues and decision and the reasons for that and I think that that would be unbelievably helpful in I don't know whether that's a move forward statement or what to the chair if I might the three members of Planning Commission that are also common at this table of course are all in the mole and alderman Farrell and myself certainly in any of those cases if you wish now I suspect you're thinking a much more of a hardcopy addition to the report or something and we could look at that I don't think thank you i don't think it has to be a hard copy report and I mean I guess I can ask I can't ask you three but you three are standing here now as members of this I mean alderman Farrell and alderman Lowe are sitting here as members of this council and not wearing their CPC hats at this point you are not wearing that hat and we have a secretary for CPC who's specifically cast to that who it would be very helpful if we heard what CPC discussed what their discussion was and the reasons for their it because these these are very nuanced issues point taken thank you thanks alderman Carra alderman Hodges your worship I asked questions earlier I have ideas for a motion but I don't know at what point you want to accept a motion we don't actually have a motion on the floor for the recommendations yet alderman Hodges so are you going to be amending this motion or are you going to be doing something else fun and exciting I have ideas on amendments but I have an idea that there's more than just the amendments I have in mind and that's why I would like to propose referral back the administration for some further consultation with the players that we've seen here today and heard from here today with the report back to council not later than April of 2011 I don't see any particular rush to for this to be approved today I understand all of the arguments that I haven't quite understood yet about this speedier process I think mr. Watson who said the department's improved its processing of applications in the last year I think that's by and large true and so I don't see a big rush to be doing something today terms of approval all right so then I'll take a motion to refer this to administration to return to counsel together no later than 12 ponyala no later than this coming april through april 2011 do I have a seconder for that motion to refer Alvin Chabot all right we've got a motion to refer on the table to refer this to administration to come directly back to Council no later than april 2011 on the motion to refer alderman Lowe your survival rosario garages I have a page of amendments half a page of amendments that I asked the department to work on on Friday afternoon staff members that are at the podium and I'd like as part of the referral to send these amendments along with the referral to them so they can contemplate these changes and discuss them with the stakeholders that we've heard from today sure I think I think any member of council can send their ideas and suggestions should the motion to refer to be successful all right so on the motion to refer alderman Lowe well your worship council was quite anxious to have RC to contextual put into the same stream if you well as rc1 and that's exactly what we've done here we know that the RC one view is in progress i believe and we're getting it back and I'm i guess i'm going to assume and look for an odd that if there's any glaring errors and that they'd be applied to RC to immediately and I'm seeing I'm seeing concurrence with that so the difficulty I have is you know the one person I had an opportunity to ask from a community if in fact they had any horror stories about the RC one they didn't so there's a there's a history trail short as it is of success I think there's an avenue here to continue the success with the RC to a year from now we've asked for a report we know that if there's a you know a review of it we know that if if there's big problems with the RC one they'll be applied immediately to the RC 2 and incorporated in that report meanwhile I think it'd be more appropriate that as a motion arising the requested amendments be put in so they can be considered a year from now with the follow-up report there's an imperative here for the industry to get on with it and that was the genesis behind the whole thing how is the genesis behind the RC one so it's I'm afraid what I'm hearing here a little bit is you know we haven't quite thrown the baby out with the bathwater but we've walked up to the door or some both in the tub and I think I would like to see us move ahead with what we have and thoughtfully make changes as we go and as we gain experience with this and the gain I my parking to an alderman Pincott says that a lot of this issue's circulates around trees not the other issues alderman Curragh doesn't agree with me but I think there's sufficient protection and what we're doing particularly given since every application is circulated for information so the communities have an opportunity to comment thank you ocean oh you can you can always write a letter alderman Carra on on the motion to refer on the motion to refer alderman Mar thank you worship on I had had actually drafted up a another motion to refer which is interesting was to come back to council or not to come to counsel but to committee I think the committee is where this work belongs rather than in Council I will I will vote against this referral to come directly here I think it belongs at the at the committee where we can have a discussion with the with the the communities I can't a friend Amanda referral we can't remember a referral oh can we render for a referral we can on it we can only as to time only as the time alderman Mar not to as to whom so i would i would request that members of council if we are looking to refer if we do want to have a meaningful dialogue with our communities then let's do it instead of having it come directly back to us let's have it go through our normal process let's have a go to committee and then come to council through the right steps vote against the referral and then i will put mine thank you worship in the interest of time I will amend my motion to ask for it to go through Community Services Committee but nevertheless to be back at Council not later than april 2011 to do to which committee alderman Hodges cps not lpt well i hear a plea to should go to cps so that's what i'd move well you can't really do that aldrin Hajus so i think what we should do i was i was about to let it go but i think ms vulin will get mad at me if I do so given that I think what we'll do is we'll take the one on the floor to come back to Council should it fail I'll recognize alderman Mar or yourself to go again on the motion to refer alderman Carra on the motion to refer before I start a major soliloquy I'm just going to ask should I wait until yes one fails yes I will lay until this one second alderman Carra if you ever say should I start this little queer wait the answer will always be the same alderman Farrell on the motion to refer all right then so on the motion to refer alderman Chabot on the motion to reduce on a point of procedure what is before us because the motion that I second and I don't believe is the motion is before us now it's still the same alderman Chabot motion to refer this item to council returning no later than april 2011 thank you for that coercion thank you so on the motion to refer sooo administration to return to council no later than april 2011 are we agreed agreed opposed we'll have to call the roll alderman Farrell no alderman Hodges yes alderman Jones yes alderman Keating no alderman Lowe no alderman MacLeod no alderman Mar no alderman Pincott yes alderman pootmans yes alderman Stevenson no alderman Carra no old mischief oh yes old McCauley air cargo old mint among no mayor Nenshi no it's lost your worship Thank You alderman Hodges okay older and Mark sorry I didn't hit my life your worship I apologize madam clerk I have a I believe we have something for the screen council this is very very similar to what alderman Hodges and I were discussing a few moments ago with you glasses now again it's to refer to SBC and community Protective Services since we're talking about trees and context of communities i was done i thought that that was the appropriate committee i'm prepared to unprepared to you listen to your wisdom and move it to whatever community that you feel is the best one but i wanted to make sure that we had the opportunity to speak to our communities especially and not being limited to the FCC altered or Community Association Winston Heights Mount Pleasant these are the months that were most affected in terms of the sheer numbers Ward 8 was represented here as ten percent of the overall development permits in the area I think that we owe it to our communities to be able to have a meaningful engagement with them to talk about this in consultation with the with the administration and to return to I think it should go through counsel and return though later or to council no later than april eleventh so be looking for your guidance you worship as to how we want to be able to since we haven't set our RS pc and council agendas then i think it should be able to hit the SBC first and then council no later than April so I'd be looking for your guidance I think the language you've got there will give you some flexibility to get to the SPC at some point before April so long as it's on a council agenda in April if that's we're in time that is my intent I kind of an in here and again you don't want to change it to opt worship I'm prepared to to stand by an amendment that that one of my colleagues was prepared to suggest I was preferring community Protective Services given the fact that this is dealing a lot with urban forestry and things of that nature which as you know we can't amend a referral motion but if you were to say you meant opt before you sit down yeah okay fine fine of course I through the slip of my pen lament to say land planning and transportation you all right so that should read spc on land use planning and transportation do I have a seconder for this referral motion alderman colley-urquhart thank you ok on the wow that's a lot of lights on the referral motion alderman Carra thank you your worship and now begin it the soliloquy I know um how does it know what I want to do is I want to ask as we debate this I want all of my council colleagues to seriously consider what this referral means because I'm sort of up in the air as to whether we refer this or not because I don't know what we're sending back and what we're getting too and with that statement and that request to my council colleagues I'd like to just make a couple of points to this issue in general I think we all agree that we need a streamlined process you know we need a streamlined process for industry we need to support the competitiveness of inner city redevelopment an inner-city growth as opposed with regards to greenfield growth that that is without question but you know what we also have to support we have to support a streamlined process in terms of councils time and even more importantly than that we have to support a streamlined process with regards to volunteer time because the sort of the sig alderman Pincott made the suggestion that communities want more and more engagement and I think that we can equivocate that with the idea that community volunteers want to put in more and more volunteer time and as a community volunteer myself I can assure you that I personally don't volunteer because I want to put it more and more of my personal time I volunteered because I was passionate about issues that mattered to me that mattered to my community and I ended up putting in as much time as I needed to and a lot of times that was in the context of a situation where I would have preferred a much streamlined a much more streamlined volunteer process and I'm seeing some nods from the volunteers in the audience the other thing that I sort of want to speak to here goes to the public process and the reality is when your community volunteer peddling influence trying to support something that you're passionate about against a machine that's set up to maybe not hear it or maybe not do it you will always say yeah it was a great public process and/or it's a great public process but and I'm not always sure it's always a great public process I know that they have to say that if they want to get anywhere but i'm not sure that they're always engaged in a great public process that really listens to what they're saying now we heard some great presentations today from community volunteers who obviously deeply care about their community and have amazing things to offer and i mean i think the tree thing let's not let's not consider the tree thing is not the issue here the tree thing is one point that it's brought forward by some very caring and very plugged in and very innovative volunteers but it's really about how do we streamline a process to develop the kinds of communities we want to develop and make the development of those communities competitive with further and further sprawl and I apologize for using that term I mean we heard some great Montgomery made some great points Ramsay made some great points it's about community characters about establishing your community brand and that gets me to my final point which is that we have a one-size-fits-all approach that's being very expertly applied but it's a one-size-fits-all approach that doesn't fit the multiple things that we can't take a one-size-fits-all approach to we're trying to have take a one side we can't take different communities or different different areas within each community neighborhoods are different different community associations what they bring to the table where their expertise ow expertise lies where the volunteers have passion and skill and the competency of those those volunteers to bring their message forward is is totally different and we heard from some very conscientious industry players here but not all industry players are that conscientious right and so and then on top of that so I question what a referral is going to do here because I think what we're talking about is a fundamentally different approach and so I would love it when you guys make your statements and ask your questions to ponder that and help me work that out as to whether I support this referral Oh which is which is essentially the opposite of streamlining our approach to streamlining the city's approach or whether we whether we vote this down or whether we support it but all of it we understand we have to do things differently thank you thanks alderman cry i was about to warn you that you were getting away from the referral motion but you brought it back already fee adam they're all during Farrell on the motion to refer thank you can I good question well that's on the floor thank you the improved quality we saw from Montgomery some pretty pointed examples of improved quality over the years and I'm I'm wondering if you believe that that was the development permit process that or simply a change in how in phils are being built it's my understanding that the quality of infill design has improved dramatically over the last decade alderman Farrell aight i'll allow that question but really motion to refer at this point is that sound why do my light on the corner all in mark yes is light on and it was to ask questions about the item itself he asked that I recognize them as soon as the vote ended so I did so will allow this one alderman Farrell be there really main motion items it is um it will determine whether a hold on the referral or not wait but okay i will ask this one question i do have several others but your worship the examples that were shown very interesting because they actually showed a lot about history about infill development that's happened over the years the first example is the really the lack of a better word ugh or houses yeah horrifying those homes were built prior to nineteen eighty eight when we needed a development permit to build an info i'm here at seeing no and in 1989 we then implemented the first it was the ner lot infill development guidelines and in 1994 we had the infill housing guidelines housing hi so in one way in one respect the rules and the policies have changed because the houses that you first were shown and then the ones that you were later showing the vinyl siding ones one was built under the infill guidelines the other ones we're not you notice the latter houses were much more respectful to set back there's more equality of design issue that came in I think that it's hard to give an herbal number to that because so much has changed but yes materials change every every few years now stealing seeing a Skrillex taco in the 80s we saw cedar in the 50s we saw stucco that had glass in it and then we saw so there's a lot of different things on here okay thank you um well I'm reluctant to support the referral but I think it might be worthwhile I would like to see these contextual rules applied to semi think we have been talking when we just came out of budget discussion where we talked about doing things differently and streamlining the process and here we have an opportunity to do just that I do believe that we are seeing improved quality simply because infill is becoming a more standard form and we want to have it as easy as we move into the planet discussions to develop in the inner city as it is to develop greenfield and in fact the opposite is is true it's very interesting i come from a community association background and i was hired by Hill her Sunnyside to be there their advocate planning advocate and we started out by wanting to preserve the historical context appeal her sunny side and other old community lots of historical buildings and in our distorted view at the time we we thought Victorian was what we so we want we got a lot of encourage a lot of gingerbread and thinks we realized after that that had nothing to do with Hill horse on either side there's nothing Victorian about the community and in fact it was just a style that we liked at the time and maybe less so as the years went by now the community is welcoming contemporary design some really unusual things some things that are fairly quirky and some flat roofs and in this historical community it it looks kind of neat because it's just an interesting mix of a community that develops over time and reflects the era of those particular developments I think the question of trees is a really important one and I that's what is encouraging me to support the referral is because of that the urban canopy I it is so vitally important to health of this community and also to the economy of these communities and surely there's got to be a way to encourage that within our process and maybe it needs to be something that has encouraged citywide and in if we don't wanna isolate it that that would be my reason and then if there's a way to encourage quality but what is quality I think we want to allow some creative uses of different materials because as we heard materials change and styles change and I don't want to be a taste sheriff either but as far as April is concerned I think it's a reasonable delay but I fully expect that we see some contextual rules in April thanks very much alderman Farrell alderman Lowe on the motion to refer very briefly you worship my comments and the last referral are equally applicable to this referral and while I appreciate all of them Farrell's comments I'd ask her to think hard and first of all her first thought which was we need a streamlined process if we're going to keep this going and what I see here happening here is exactly the opposite so please say no to the referral you'd almost it the stock gaps are in place process is in place the innovation is in place everything we wants in place just little will to do it alderman Hodges on the motion to refer worship well there's been a lot of good comment today from all of the stakeholders and I don't see any problem in the referral because the idea is that those comments that weren't before us when the agenda was sent to us are now before us and I think picking up on one of alderman Farrell's comments if we want to move forward generally and redevelop in the inner city somebody has got to start listening to the people who live in the inner city otherwise you're going to have a continuous issue of argument your worship time and time and time again when you have a community that's forty percent rc2 this is a very important issue this is not about something happening in cougar Ridge or something happening in southwest Calgary or something happening in midnapore in Montgomery it's single-family houses that are mostly in the RC 2 are surrounded by other RC two properties and developments standards are improving but there's no downside in a referral that comes back to Council in april 2011 thank you thanks alderman Hodges on the motion to refer alderman Pincott well thank you I'm a couple of things in the referral it doesn't actually go to administration it just goes straight to committee so there is no administration component to the referral it just is referring what is before us to committee to hear from committee again it's also directing not at directing that you will be there so just want to point that out that the the consultation in the referral is happening at the committee level so I just want people to be clear on on what the referral is is saying here it's not asking administration to go out and do more it's saying that the further consultation will be at the committee the second piece that I'm challenged with is I'm not sure about this but there is no altidore community association so no there isn't so I just as part of that I just I just point that out that there is no so altidore communication please don't show up and so I just want to be clear that the referral is just sending this to committee and for us to hear members of the public at committee older and more will address that in his clothes on the motion to refer alderman Stevenson well that's that was my point I I agree with that the lpt is the place rather than cps but I just I'm really confused as to how an spc can do consultation I mean the only thing the SBC contains exactly the same as what we did here anybody wants to come come here and maybe this means that that alderman show is Sybil as chairman has to go start consulting with all these people I don't know second I think it's confusing to me why we would do it this way Thank You errs much as I love the thought of an alderman Chabot Roadshow alderman pootmans on the motion to refer thank you your worship I was hoping this might be a brief sonnet but I think it might go a little further I'm on I assumed that when we referred to spc we would have the opportunity to engage with administration for support I'm not sure if that's reality or not perhaps that's a question secondly I'm going to report the motion to refer because i have a fond hope that there might be a middle ground between the interests of the community associations and their need to preserve the community is so well put by a number of community associations this afternoon and the needs which I think are imperative to streamline the process is there a magical common ground that we could find have we completely exhausted the process and seeking that ground is it appropriate to wait a few more months to find that common ground and I guess my judgment it is worth waiting a few more months to seek that magical place thank you make it so easy alderman pootmans Thank You alderman Hodges you spoken on this already but your light is on I think we all know what motion means in spite of the literal reading of each word that isn't going to lead us anywhere either the literal reading of each word that is leading us down the garden path thanks alderman Hodges anyone else before I call alderman Mar to close on the motion to refer elder and Marta close thank you you worship well I just assumed that we would be able to interpret or get an interpretation from administration what do you think this means mr. Watson DC do you think that this means that you're closing it's too late this is silly well I'm I'm speaking widely and openly I don't think that any of us are on the table with the exception of maybe alderman Pincott thinks that that we want alderman autumn alderman Chabot to do any kind of consultation at all obviously the intent of is is that we want to be able to hear from our communities alderman Lowe and alderman Farrell were able to do that at the CPC we were looking now to hear from our communities we went through this election process where we all or I think all of us campaigned on greater transparency more involvement greater advocacy for our communities if i look at my my little chart here south calgary and you're right south calgary and alta doors one in the same in terms of the in terms of the community associations but here it it shows a a massive difference in terms of how many of these permits are being brought forth into these these communities if i look at just my portion just in Ward 8 it's sixteen percent of the applications just in 2009 that's a huge amount what I would like to do is honor the fact that we have community representatives here that have volunteered basically their entire day to come and hear and speak to us about this issue I think they deserve an opportunity to be heard in a fulsome way where we can have their opportunity to discuss all of these with the industry with administration and the communities at a committee rather than just having a brief public hearing and they get five minutes I don't think that that's real community consultation so that's my clothes thank you your worship thanks alderman Mar so on the motion that you see on the screen to refer this item to lpt to return to council through opt no later than april 2011 are we agreed any opposed call the roll please ultimate Pincott yeah Haldeman pootmans yes alderman Stevenson no alderman Carra yes told me ship oh yes old one call the aircraft no Osman tomorrow yes alderman Farrell alderman Hodges yes alderman Jones no alderman Keating yes alderman Lowe no open McLeod no alderman Mar yes mayor Nenshi no it's carried your worship thank you very much oh I'd you wanted your motion arising alderman Pincott isn't it kind of moot now oh yeah I don't think you can do it now because it was referred all right on thank you where should I have a motion arising out of this last item and i have emailed two clerks a great degree of what we we heard from the communities was around trees and so I have a motion arising to this up on the screen now to to actually have a look at trees we can't we can't address trees and just one are not appropriate then we don't go down the path of having are going out in and engaging so this is is very clearly written to be in two parts to to have a look at both our public and private at the end of the day we may hear that this could inform the land use bylaw this could inform some of the very things that we heard about today so I hope that you will support this motion to to do some work to look at our options bring those oxygens back to us and then should there be an option that we like we can do some further consultation on it by by the end of next year thank you thanks Logan peacock you have a seconder all during McLeod thank you and just FYI alderman Pincott you found a great reason to add yet another page to the procedural bylaw because there is a not defined term in here but that's ok I'm going to allow it so on the motion arising on the motion arising anyone alderman Carra yeah i mean i i'm totally to you but I couldn't I missed that ultimate stations he said boat quick okay I guess I just being a new alderman and understanding sort of the budgetary considerations that were in right now and just asking administration to come up and do this work I just I just like a sense from administration about where they are in terms of their workload and what this does and etc etc etc most who the cheerily makara because we're talking to the urban force was really even force forestry part which is actually dr. hardoy charmers area which I would think would probably take certainly some of the lead in this certainly will be additional work of course the last motion may referral is going to be additional work so I mean that's what you have an administration for is to do work I doubt if this is going to break the bank as it were but it is going to take some more work given that we're coming back may depending on what is counsel to the size we could be coming back but name of the year certainly when we come back in May we can certainly discuss whether this is going to be a make-it-or-break-it thing but absolutely i mean that this is the challenge that council legitimately does all through the course of the year is comes up with good ideas and adds more work on top of the existing work program okay thanks mr. Wattson alderman Carra answer your question yes elder and Mar oh you worship I hate to be difficult I really do you're right that's true I don't oh I'm Mari let's let's be honest here well should we be honest my question now is that if we're going to refer this back should this not go back is the one bundle to the one that we just referred I understand which is exactly why I wanted to refer to CP ass in the first place but I think that this one starts to go into a slippery slope if we if we don't bundle it with the with the report that just left can i ELP tea tray if I may put words in alder anything cots mouth because I'm good at that I think all the Rings ping cots point in bringing this motion is precisely what you're saying is this is not about semi detached dwellings this is a much bigger issue and he deliberately is attempting to separate it from the other issues on semi detached dwellings feral drinking cup okay well it's a great tree canopy debate just never occurred yet the great tree canopy debate I look forward to it thank you it will be a fulsome discussion or toothsome discussion yes well it sure won't be to some alderman MacLeod thank you I think we've heard significant issues raised around the and I understand it's called a tree canopy it used to be just trees to me but but i think if we can raise these issues between community and Protective Services and planning and we actually elevate the conversation and create a bridge and I think there's some advantages to doing that thanks alderman MacLeod anyone else before I call alderman Pincott to close other in pink eye closed on the motion that you see on the screen then are we agreed opposed all right carried last item in this section then item 8.1 brentwood station area redevelopment plan land use re-designation deferral requests flipping to it now are you moving at all during through lesson yes alderman Mar seconding on the frilled you want to say anything about it just I think we just need a little bit more time isn't that the case I think that's right right mr. Watson so then we have a motion to defer this and it returned to counsel I think no later than 20 11 jun all right so alderman Hodges on this deferral request yes you worship I have no problem with it because we don't have these uh bylaws in front of us today in any case it's a request for deferral but to the chair again mr. Watson a humble plea but somebody engage the ward ultimately though it says brentwood it will involve the art of varsity on the south side of crowchild trail that's me okay the only time I hear about this these things are by rumor I heard this was coming on as a rumor in October as good it's good to have rumors but it's better to have to be communicated with I think that you have been heard loud and clear alderman Hodges yes mr. Watson all right on anyone else on the motion to defer then are we agreed any opposed very well that ends the public hearing portion of this meeting thank you all and we'll go into the regular portion of the meeting oh no we don't we've closed each individual item there they're gone already holds remark all right as we play a little musical chairs here that your worship I wonder if I could beg your indulgence to on the agenda absolutely why don't we do that now okay your worship I since you note up I've got a musk ten meeting here at the seven o'clock so I'd like to table items 8 1 10 11 18 ones down all right aight one's done all right sorry 10 1 and 10 12 and then to bring forward and deal with 10.2 and 10.2 to and 10.23 as their bylaws attached to them and we can get that done before supper Anya ok so the motion then is to table items 10.1 point 1 10.1 point 2 and 10 point to point one alderman Lowe know we can do all three of fun okay so 10.1 point one in ten point 1.2 and so after we consider ten point two point three in other words we're just moving the finance and corporate services forward do I have a seconder thanks alderman colley-urquhart any discussion on this Momo no motion to table or non-debatable so on this motion to table are we agreed any opposed too late okay so that takes this then to item 9.1 the council calendar alderman Jones your worship we need everyone here for this one 49.1 you mean all right so we'll just talk slowly until alderman pootmans there he is alderman Jones you worship thank you for noticing i didn't notice you worship on the calendar I'd like to move the table until December the 13th meeting of council so the procedure bylaw subcommittee can meet this friday so that if you talk about them and then we brought forward next Monday thanks alderman Jones alderman Stevenson seconding and I and I do think that was the purpose of not approving this in the first place so we've got another motion to table then motion to table item 9.1 the 2011 council calendar to December 13 again a non-debatable motion so on this one are we agreed rude sorry I have another item that would if we're tabling that would like to I'd like to have looked at at the same time for is it on today's agenda it no it is it is on the calendar we had there's another conflict that I would if we're tabling I would like to just bring it bring it forward to the procedure subcommittee drought dropping notes alderman Jones and I'm sure they'll consider it okay thank you okay so sorry we were in the middle of voting when you did that all during thank God but that's all right so on the motion to table are we agreed any opposed very well then so we are now at ten point to point one alderman Lowe thank you your worship I'll move the recommendations of all the finance and corporate services reports and I would ask to ask you to call the associated bylaws with 10.2 and 10.3 you're moving them all simultaneously we do it all right then do I have a seconder alderman colley-urquhart thank you any discussion on any of these so alderman alderman Lowe has moved ten point-to-point 1.7 point to point to you and the recommendations in ten point two point three all together so any discussion alderman Chabot thank you worship well respectfully if we can actually call them by the actual report numbers that might help me in assessing what it is that I'm voting on happy to do that so it's FCS 2010 21 this is the first one we're dealing with was the first one 23 and 24 okay so on on FCS 2010 dash 21 your worship if you could call the recommendations separately I I'm not necessarily supportive of some of the adjustments that are being proposed in here so we're happy to do so alderman Chabot is there anything you want to say about that we've we've kind of spent the last week or so debating some of these things that are being proposed in here so I'm not going to debate him further worship I'm just would like to be on record as not being supportive of some of these recommendations thanks alderman Chabot thank you alderman Mar on this motion okay no problem I think anyone else on these three recommendations so I'm gonna well three reports so i'm going to call them separately okay so alderman Lowe did you want to close i'll close on them individually worship on the left in CS 2010 21 closed ok so then on FCS 2010 21 administration recommendation number one received for information attachment one are we agreed any opposed very well on recommendation number to receive for information attachment to are we agreed any opposed on recommendation number three approve a one-time draw from the FS r if necessary to mitigate an overall City tax-supported unfavorable variants are we agreed any opposed to alderman Chabot and alderman Mar post number four approved the 2010-2011 capital budget adjustments as identified in attachment three are we agreed any opposed alderman Chabot and number five received for information attachment for the summary of the operating and capital budgets adjustments previously approved by council or approved by administration for the period april 12 September 30 of 2010 are we agreed any opposed alderman Chabot is opposed all right alderman Lowe on the second report then it's closed through our worship if you'll give three readings to bylaw 58 m 2010 thank you all right so then first on the recommend this is about the changes to the boundary of the angle would be ours ad on the administration recommendations are we agreed with any opposed first reading of the bylaw then first reading the bylaw are we agreed any opposed second reading of the bylaw are we agreed Oh before second reading I'm sorry i thought you said after second reading i apologize for this particular one because of the business revitalization zone regulation before we get to second reading we do have to ask if there are any taxpayers in the zone and people who would be taxpayers under the change in boundaries who wish to speak to council today anyone I apologize your worship I was supposed to bring that to your attention no mr. Tully did too but I misheard him i thought it was before third reading is there anyone who would like to speak to this who fits those categories very well in that case on second reading of the bylaw are we agreed authorization for third reading of the bylaw are we agreed any opposed third reading the bylaw are we agreed any opposed very well then carried and the final report alderman Lowe closed you worship from the dust for three readings of proposed bylaw 1m 2011 thank you so on the administration recommendation then that we give three readings proposed tax file are we agreed any opposed carried on first reading letter we agreed on second reading are we agreed authorization for third reading are we agreed any opposed and third reading are we agreed very well thank you Carrie so we will move back Oh alderman Lowe I'm just going to lift from the table the table items and bring them forward and deal with them thank you I don't even think we need a motion on that because we said we do it right after we considered this one so very well then we're flipping back to the CP and s reports there we are so strategies and options for southeast recreation opportunities report cps 2010 55 it is a deferral request other and why are you moving that your worship I will happily move all of the recommendations from community Protective Services from the committee thank you do we have a seconder Thank You alderman Keating any discussion on either of these reports all right alderman Mar you want to close close Don Hollinger ocean thank you then on the recommendations in cps 2010 55 are we agreed any opposed carried and there we are 56 I'm sorry I just was missing the number there on the recommendations in CP 2010 56 are we agreed any opposed carried all right then takes us to report from lpt alderman Chabot if you worship happy to move the recommendations of the committee although I'm not necessarily supportive of all the recommendations that's my own personal opinion and therefore as the chair more than happy to move the recommendations of committee but happy to introduce and clothes and on any and all items thanks alderman Chabot do I have a seconder alderman Mar Thank You alderman Stevenson thank you your worship at committee I moved some amendments in I made a mistake on one I don't know what this can be done as a friendly one or not but in number four it says including on the second page says including exploration of options three four and five it should be option should be options three four and six because number six deals with community enhancement were number five deals with local improvement so I just made a mistake so it's just the wrong number in there can will you accept that is friendly alderman Chabot all during modern mark yeah so that maybe three four and six thirty four or six yeah and if I can speak to it now then this this is something that takes me back quite a number of years I've been working on the what I consider to be a major looming problem for this city with the screening fences around communities and the inability of the communities to be able to keep them up and keep them looking consistent because the way it's set right now one neighbor can let his fence fall down the next one paints his pink and the guy after that painted black so we're trying to come up with a solution in two forms one is ongoing in other words what are we doing with the future develop and future subdivisions but also to try and help the communities on what they can do with the existing perimeter fences and as you'll read in the report there is a couple hundred kilometers of these fences around the city we're going to be running into more and more problems with them so I have asked to have this referred back that's what this motion is all about so that we can try and come up with something I was not happy with the way it was handled and so that's why I made a motion at committee to refer it back and then I will be working with the administration on it before it comes back the next time so thank you worship I encourage my colleagues to support this thank you I'm going to in that case I alderman Stevenson we're going to call them separately if that's all right and old when she will your intent was to put all four of them on the table yes okay alderman Carra uh nice yeah I just want to reiterate my colleague element Stevenson's sentiment that this is a looming problem I think it's sort of almost a canary in the coal mine type situation at and I look forward to the report on this committee and I just want to reach out to all them and students and please keep me in the loop and allow me to be of any support to you as you sort of lead this process forward Thank You alderman Carra anyone else on any of the lpt items that's 68 6267 7176 on any of them all right then alderman Chabot to close to close on 68 your worship you'll probably notice that I didn't support this in committee part of the reason that I wasn't supportive of moving forward or again revisiting this whole perimeter fence issue or stand or screening fence issues because administration that indicate that the majority of this fencing lies on private lands and so it would be somewhat problematic but if if alderman Stevenson believes that there's some value in exploring this further and initiating some additional work he's willing to to take the lead on that Who am I to begrudge him on taking on additional work so I will be supporting at your worship not considering you'll be very busy with the roadshow alderman Chabot thank you yours your foot all right then so on the recommendations of the SPC on report lpt 2010 68 recommendation number one direct administration to extend the revised screening face maintenance program to 2014 December 31st are we agreed any opposed on recommendation to approve roads capital program various street improvements is the source of a one-hundred-thousand-dollar annual limit for funding the city's portion of maintenance are we agreed any opposed on recommendation three receive private screening fence maintenance options for information purposes only are we agreed any opposed all right admin recommendation for direct administration to reconvene the discussion group are we agreed any opposed alderman Farrell is opposed Oh to close on 65 please I think just one is pretty straightforward your worship there wasn't I think a need for further debate on this issue so close okay so on the recommendation of the SPC that administration meet with the ward alderman and then the community to discuss alternative measures to a traffic circle at country hills boulevard and royal birch boulevard northwest are we agreed any opposed the people following along at home wyldermen colley-urquhart I know I know hey we crashed the website last week as you know our number 62 alderman Chabot thank you worship well there was a number of recommendations made by committee was identified on the status of outstanding motions that that these were not could not be amended by the committee and therefore had to be forward on to counsel for council to further ratify so the recommendations that are before us from the committee essentially will look at making some of those changes so members of council if you want to debate this further beyond what we've discussed in committee and be more than happy to address these issues as they come forward but on the basis of the fact that we had significant discussion on these issues i would encourage council to further support the recommendations in committee thank you i'm going to say that that was not your clothes cuz all been Hodges ladies on oh just to briefly worship by an interest of time there's 12 or 15 reports coming in on December 15 so they breed my brief question as it was it committee have we still got the 15 maybe the clerks are looking a little startled of the 15 reports coming into lpt still in the pipeline for December 15 that's a good answer there Jesus get a jury to the chair and the whole idea you ask just is to split them up a bit there's some that don't need to be there I don't think on December 15 summer status reports others are more important reports but there's a whole group here that we're do other what going to be due December 15 and it also looks like the effects of this motion which me to move at least three of them off of that day so all right then any further discussion on this one so then on the spc recommendation which is to change a bunch of dates for things that are coming back to the lpt are we agreed any opposed all right then number 67 alderman Chabot thank you your worship now oh I think I skipped number 6 i'm sorry alderman 460 oh yes sorry for that well I I'll just open with the with the I guess congratulate administration on coming forward with solutions whereby there we don't need to have a whole bunch of throwaway infrastructure and leave it open to the floor for the debate and if not if I don't need to happy to close on it as is anyone else on recommendation number 66 then that we approve the administration recommendation this is the one about calgary transit fare payment options so on that recommendation are we agreed any opposed alderman Hodges as opposed all right number 60 70 heating & Stevenson sorry I i missed your lights there so on 67 to open alderman Chabot thank you for allowing me that your worship because the think in this particular instance that the recommendations are somewhat misleading in regards to the outcome of the vote and I will be asking administration to look at the boat record specifically on this issue when it comes back to committee for the approval of the minutes because my recollection of the motions as they were placed were that I had moved or I had voted against the amendment as opposed to voting in favor of this recommendation the way it reads on the roll call for the vote it says that I voted for this and then everyone vote voted against against the amendment and then subsequently it was further amended in this is the motion that is before us now is the three recommendations from committee now having said that to worship I I'm not necessarily supportive of the direction that the committee has put forward and so I personally will be voting against it although I'm still putting forward to recommendations of the committee thanks alderman Chabot alderman Stevenson thank you worship did you know a number of us were in Edmonton for the am a conference and I chaired a meeting with the Minister of Transportation addressing the crowd Luka lat and so at one point and I know that alderman Demong and alderman Keating were there in this particular meeting and asked the minister transportation about the turnover of Deerfoot Trail and what what the plan was and I know that our administration has been talking with their administration but I want to make it clear what he said because there was a big crowd likely a hundred and fifty of people are so there and he said that in any case where a ring road is built around the community then they turned back the the old road and he said they there be nothing done until at the time that the ring road was completed down to Deerfoot at the south which is which is what this report says but then he went on to say that that they always sign an agreement to look after the road for 17 years after it's taken over and that everything would be at their costs including up grading and maintenance and everything up for 17 years right now if I no alderman Keating Scott is light on here if if anybody if he or alderman Demong understood it different I think he was very clear about that that it was that it was a 17 year agreement so I just wanted to throw that in there because it it looks as though we're saying here that that we don't want to resume the responsibility I don't think we're going to have any choice about taking it over at some point but if they will continue with the upgrades and do whatever is necessary so that at the end of the 17 years that the road is right up to what it should be then I don't think it's going to be as much of a problems thank you rich Thank You alderman Stevenson alderman Keating thank you worship I do follow along those lines and I I concur that that was the discussion during this committee meeting it seemed to say that we will not talk about the fact that the Deerfoot will be part of Cal Garriott at that time I I wasn't quite exactly sure which way we were going but I did vote against it even though I strongly believe that the City of Calgary has to begin that eventually it will be ours regardless of whether we say it will not be or not and I would like the sort of get the mind shift that we start working on the inherent problems with the Deerfoot and fix them before it is ours okay thanks alderman Keating alderman colley-urquhart well just to emphasize this is the reason why alderman Lowe and I brought this notice of motion forward together last year we were concerned about a lot of the issues that we were hearing with regards to this it was very very clear at our committee that members of committee are just not we want to clearly convey your worship and have you convey on our behalf that we're not interested in assuming responsibility for the Deerfoot at this time and we don't want that process to be accelerated and cast upon us sooner than they think it can happen so I hope members of council will support the recommendations before us thank you thanks alderman colley-urquhart and I did in fact make it clear my first meeting with the premier that this was an office-warming presence I did not want here's what I do want anyone else on this item on number 67 alderman Chabot to close thank you your worship and and I do appreciate the comments from some of my colleagues specifically in regards to their discuss with the minister my discussions were somewhat varied in regards to the way I understood how the transfer was going to occur and my understanding was that typically the province does continue to offer to provide I thought it was 15 years so again there's a two-year variance there in operations maintenance and repair not necessarily for upgrades and as identified in this report there's somewhere in the range of around seven hundred million dollars worth of upgrades that would be required overtime to accommodate the transit or the safety and an efficiency audit that was initiated by myself and alderman colley-urquhart some time ago so in light of that I don't think necessarily that we can say no to passing it or two re accepting the responsibility of it from the province so I would ask that it very least your worship they call recommendation number two separately because I'm not prepared to support it in its current form happy to do so thanks alderman Chabot so then on lpt 2010 67 relating to the potential transfer deerfoot trail to the city of calgary recommendation number one to receive the report for information or we agreed any opposed recommendation number two direct administration to clearly convey to the province the city of Calgary's not prepared to resume responsibility for deerfoot trail are we agreed any opposed call the roll please alderman Chabot no alderman colley-urquhart yes alderman Demong no alderman Farrell yes alderman Hodges alderman Jones yes alderman Keating no alderman Lowe yes Alton MacLeod yes osman mar ultimen Pincott yes ultimate pootmans yes alderman Stevenson no alderman Carra yes mare Nenshi no it's kara Jerusha thank you on recommendation number three continue discussions with the province on the basis of recommendations wanting to are we agreed any opposed alderman Chabot is opposed all right then that takes us now to number 71 I believe independent review of the land use bylaw and related processes aldrin should go to open and just open it to the floor your worship then address any issues that are identified in my clothes very well anyone have any comments on this one alderman Chabot to close close your worship thank you on the recommendation in lpt 2010 71 are we agreed any opposed alderman Hodges is opposed all right carried Thank You alderman Chabot we now go to the reports from the Audit Committee alderman Pincott thank you I'd like to move the committee recommendations of AC 2010 73 and AC 2010 79 thank you all during the cloud is seconding any discussion of these do you want to open them separately alderman Pincott or opened and closed yeah I might I might have waited just a second to see if anyone else had anything all right clothes on the recommendations then on getting close to supper all through my god on the recommendations and 2010 73 the functional analysis of the city auditor's office are we agreed with red commendations of the Audit Committee any opposed alderman Chabot is opposed and on number 79 real estate portfolio audit are we agreed on the recommendations of the Audit Committee any opposed very well then carried never let it be said that we can't whip through stuff when we want to this now takes us two items directly to council will start with 11.1 notices of motion 11.1 point 1 report 44 council report templates alderman Mar to it unfortunately this my electronic agenda is not working very well I'm going to scroll right down ah well do you want to come back after are you okay very well hammer it takes a second I've got to give hard it's not my fault thank you your worship I'll just introduce this briefly we have had a template that has been given to us by our administration that we've been using for the last several years it's been brought to my attention that we used to as a as a municipality have a variety of different reports which included significantly different and more information in my research and the work that my staff has done we have been able to ascertain that there is a variety of different parts of information that I would like to see in our reports which would include a more varied end recent discussion that would allow us to have multiple scenarios where alternatives would exist which if we were doing a major capital project I would like us to be able to have an opportunity where we get all the information that that administration has wade through normally when we have a recommendation is just the recommendation from administration I'd like to be able to see what other options were out there cost implications operating and capital up cost implications public consultation if it it's done we should be able to understand what our communities were saying how the administration went forth and and did a community consultation the funding sources these are things that some of the ones that are existing in our reports but i'd like to see justification for recommendation variety of other major major issues and that are not currently on our template now what I've been discussing with mr. tobert was the creation of a report where the administration we would select a report and it would be compared with the new template so council would have an opportunity to see two versions one as is or what we were normally doing and a second report which would detail much more fully some of the objectives that I've outlined here so you worship I hope that that explains what the intent of it is I know that in my discussions with the administration they have a better understanding and better of idea of what I'm trying to achieve here better information especially when we're talking about major capital projects like the southeast LRT like the ninety-sixth Street underpass and and others so I hope console will support me on this and I look forward to the discussion I do we have a seconder for alderman Mars notice alderman Keating Thank You alderman Chabot thank thank you your worship I almost hate to do this but I unfortunately being as it's before us I have an alternative but to to pick at this a little bit if you'll permit me or worship in regards to previous council direction in cases where by I find that the material is insufficient to properly assess the recommendations of the committee or council and so far as looking at previous council direction I I have staff for that this this motion essentially offloads the obligation that I think I have to I guess do my due diligence so I can't background that kind of falls in with the previous one whereby I get my staff to gather as much background information as I can where I find that the reports are maybe not sufficient as they should be triple bottom line analysis although it may be argued that triple bottom analysis that is currently on our reports may not be as efficient as it should be it is does form part of the current reports risk assessment something I guess that we could be doing beyond what we're currently doing again there may be some costs associated with that multiple scenarios and alternatives with detailed reporting on ramifications of each that sounds to me like a horrendous amount of work that goes far and beyond the scope of what's currently done through the recording process and and would have some very significant budget implications at least from my session assessment of it cost implications that that's already currently identified on our reports triple bottom line also assesses what the cost implications are and what the funding source is so that's another one that's a little ways down the line operating cost implications where applicable I think we're already doing cost implications of capital expenditures as well as cost implications and decisions that are made and and if it's not included in the report there's always one member of council that will stand up just like I am now and say can somebody please tell me what the cost implications are going to be at this report and and if it's not included in the report I'll be happy to do that at every single opportunity public consultation results I don't think we go up a public consultation on all issues there is a requirement and the Municipal Government Act that we must undertake public consultations in a number of areas and so to suggest that we should be doing this on every single issue I think we'll be here until next year just trying to deal with the things that we're supposed to be dealing with this month a worship so I can't support that cumulative budget implications I know there was at some point where we had asked what the cumulative budget implications were going to be and whether or not we could have an update of that on a regular basis so if I may maybe engage mr. Sawyer on this is this something that is planned on being reported back on thank you your worship there was some previous council direction and we actually do include cumulative impacts in our quarterly reporting thank you for that mr. Sawyer justification for recommendations I think that's what the reports all about now I could be missing something and some of the reports that I've read but typically there's cause and effect and things identified by administration on what the implications are going to be on either approving or not approving the recommendations from from administration so I this while it it seems to look at addressing some things that one member of council feels are deficient but one thing that I think that may not be particularly reported on here is multiple scenarios and alternatives with detailed reporting and to me that would have significant cost implications associated without having some idea what that would entail I can't support any of this sorry thank thanks alderman Chabot we've got about a minute before the break but I see alderman Lowe is next on the list and I know he suggested you might not be with us after the break so well thank you thank you or especially a lot of my concerns are very similar to alderman suppose the when I looked at it on another board i sat on some of the committee's which I attend will deal as a subcommittee will deal in detail some parts of this then the end result comes to the board so when I looked at this I the the one that got me was multiple scenarios of alternatives and detailed reporting of ramifications of each you know it seems to me if I it's probably a good idea to have the scenarios that are examined listened the recommended scenario will detail if I want more information about the other scenarios I agree with alderman Chabot I simply have to pick up the phone and get it that's part of my job so I guess my question mr. tobert is when maybe mr. mr. Logan if we did the 96th Avenue underpass how thick wood that report be to satisfy this which probably going to be as complex the waters are going to deal with for a while you worship that's exactly why I asked for the second page the insertion because otherwise this would be a rock exercise the message i heard was I don't like the reports the administration's giving make them better and so I said okay in order to narrowed the gap between expectations I wanted to actually bring a report in show a before and after so that we could deal with expectations to say here's how much detail will suffice because otherwise we just be shooting darts at a board though I it's a hard time be the report that we could have brought providing alternatives to what happened near the airport would be quite thick yeah and I guess it's without having the authors and the experts explaining each one to you as you went would be pretty heady to get soon or sunday night at home so having said that you worship you know I my inclination a message your worship sorry to interrupt reporting procedure let him finish it well I just before the gavel goes I'd like to move move to motion to extend this to finish this item waive the procedure bylaw sure you you could do that if you like but why don't we let alderman Lowe finish on Cory bang the gavel oh oh listen to you the I guess my I think the report we have generally speaking you're good there's probably some incremental improvements that we can do but I think this is far too far to go one call quantum leap regardless of what the reports say we still have our jobs to do so i'm i'm not going to skort this procedurally i think when we're doing that we can take a look at the Kent the content of the part of that thanks alderman Lowe alderman Mar you worship I understand that alderman Lowe has another meeting to go to so i would like to waive the procedure bylaw and extend this item make sure that we finish it so he can participate in in the discussion if it pleases council do we have a seconder it's not quite correct motion you are changing the ree for changing the time to recess and soul disk until consideration of this item is complete okay do I have a seconder for that alderman Hodges is seconding that so all in favor yes sorry are we agreed chairing a different different committee for a second there are we agreed any opposed call the roll please oh and it needs a two-thirds right alderman Farrell no alderman Hodges alderman Jones Oh ultimate keating but yes alderman Lowe no both in the cloud no alderman Mar yes alderman Pincott you know alderman pootmans no Oldman Stevenson no alderman Carra sure Oh Winship 00 old McCauley erica yes alderman Demong no mayor Nenshi no it's lost to worship all right then we are recessed we will be back here at five minutes after seven to complete this and 720 sorry 720 to complete this and their next day and we're back I have four on my speakers list alderman Farrell Pincott Cara and Keating alderman Farrell thank you um well I do think that there's some interesting ideas here but to expect that every report should include all this information perhaps is well I alderman Mar said not everyone and not every report and I don't think that's really clear it's a there are some interesting ideas here these are really pieces of information that should be part of a thorough report and one of the reasons we brought forward the whole idea of an executive summary is when I got on council we didn't have executive summaries we had in some cases 20 30 page reports and the recommendation was usually at the back and so we asked for something that would be bring forward the salient points I think it's been helpful but perhaps we need to now look at the next iteration I'm going to suggest that we send this back to the Governance Committee to look at to look at the contents of this all right so you're making a motion to refer this to the procedure it's now called the procedure bylaw subcommittee i'm going to call it the Governance Committee because I think that's what it should be I'd rather do that too but I think in the motions within the minutes we approved the other name all right in my head I'm calling it comprises meet me to alderman Farrell alright alright so we've got a motion to refer this to the procedures bylaw committee sorry and you have a time you want it to go there or to come back here other and throw I'm not sure when their work will be done and when they're going to report to Council but I imagine the Governance Committee well why don't why don't we give them until March to report back on this particular issue that would be fine okay all right then so we've got we've got a motion on the floor to refer this item to the procedure bylaw subcommittee to report back to council no later than March 2011 do I have a seconder for that motion seconder for the referral motion thanks alderman Hodges all right on the referral motion I'm going to ignore the lights just wave at me if you'd like to speak on the referral motion alderman Jones if we're gonna get it back that wake and we also have associated costs with it as well sure we can throw that in that's all right all tomorrow okay anyone else on this referral motion alderman Pincott I'm not clear I think this is work for administration not for the procedure bylaw committee because i don't think the procedure bylaw committee can come up with what the costs would be on list so I do honestly believe that if we're going to do this this is there's this is work for administration to do and costing it and sort of filling it out I think that I think the thought alderman Pincott is that it go right away to the procedures bylaw committee who refine it a little bit and then presumably would send it to administration to work on once it's been here till dawn a bit more I think that's what I heard all there in feral say if that's all right with you also refer others on this referral motion alderman Carra well I think the point of this motion is a couple fold I'm not the referral motion but the actual motion and so I'm going to speak to the referral motion in that regard I think the importance is to have I mean I've made the point several times today that I think we needed a more nuanced and comprehensive report from CPC and I partially want that for myself and I acknowledge alderman Chabot point that you know that's our job is to stay on top of it and send our staff after but I think in the spirit of transparent governance we want to have something that is readily apparent and understandable and accessible to the people watching at home and the people who come out and so we want to make I think the point of this is is not to have more and more information but it had better and clearer more concise information and I think it's important to have that discussion and to make that statement and if council feels that it's best and most effectively addressed at the governance what are we calling it now not the Gus the procedures by law subcommittee and maybe that's where we do it but I applaud alderman Mar for bringing this for because I think it has to be addressed Thank You alderman Carra anyone else on the motion to refer alderman Stevenson thank you worship well there may be some areas well there are some areas for sure that we'd like some more clarity on the reports I think we're trying to kill a mosquito with a sledgehammer here and it's going to be costly for all of us so I will not support the referral I would like to vote against the referral and then we can kill the motion thank you but not with a sledgehammer thanks alderman Stevenson anyone else on the referral okay all new cloud and now thank you your worship I was just going to say I'm not sure that the referral or the actual motion here that much different because they're both asking to come back with a report on what we might do differently so I see it as simply the only difference elder MacLeod is where it goes so does it go back to the procedure bylaw subcommittee or straight backs Council other than that same thing yeah alderman Keating I was hesitating because I was going to maybe wait till next one but I think they all fit together similar to alderman MacLeod said I would hope that everything listed here is pre-done in any report because any good report should have a number of these and probably all of these things done in it before it comes to us anyway so including some of them I don't think should be any what of a cost so as a referral I think they should vote on it and move forward okay anyone else on the referral motion all right on the motion to refer that do you want to close alderman Farrell okay on the motion to refer then are we agreed any opposed call the roll please so nope no sure no no no yes yes yes no yes yes thank you back to the main motion then alderman Pincott thank you while I appreciate the the desire for better reports as I look at the motion rights on the computer as I look at the motion I I can't help but think that if we want to see our administration grind to a halt this is probably the best way to do it have them report us to death and have to work on the kind of things that are in there things like detailed scenarios and justifications of ratifications for everything in within reports I agree with alderman Chabot a lot of that is work that we we as members of council can and should be doing of our own accord it is part of what is what i would call our due diligence and offload trying to offload our due diligence to administration certainly doesn't help to streamline and expedite anything so and it's certainly if if this does proceed then I certainly hope that any of these potential report formats would include costing because if I do recall last year there was a number thrown at us for just a standard report every time we asked for a report how much sort of a ballpark and I think that I think that we see that escalate exponentially most likely so I won't be supporting this Thank You alderman Pincott oven Cara I spoke to some of the things that I think are pertinent since motion when I was referring to the referral I will agree with all the man Keating statement that you know a lot of these things should be addressed before we get a report to Council and what this is really about is the report to Council and I mean I don't want to see something that's larger and larger and larger I want to see something that's more and more accessible and I think if you flip the green page over and you look at now therefore now be it further resolved that council directs administration to prepare and submit directly to members of council at the earliest opportunity a test case that has the way it's currently reported and maybe a look at how it could be done differently and we can start refining it from there but i think i would hope that everyone can agree that our current reports the council are not as helpful as they could be and they're certainly unhelpful to people who aren't paid to be experts in them and that's the public who we want to be more and more open and engaging of so i think there's enough room in this motion to accomplish that and i encourage everyone to support it Thank You alderman Carra alderman Keating thank you your worship going back to further comments the writers of any good report would include these and I would suspect a number of different areas I do want to i guess raise the question as saying is it's not much I could be wrong and saying it's not my job to do my due diligence and research and all of those sorts of things but I would suspect again that most of the research and all of these things are done in any good report before it comes to us so if it's there make it readily available to us and I would propose that it is my job to discern that information coming forward and making a qualified decision on that aspect therefore I will support it thank you thanks alderman Keating alderman Jones like your worship but just a question for dirt overt you're the one then you and your jams are the ones that are going to have to do this how do you read this it Stewart thank you worship well we will see after we do the test case I honestly think that we do do a good job on the reports you have and any time that you have a question on a report that we currently have set submitted to counsel or have over the past year you call us and we give you additional information I mean are we trying to fix something that's broken or not although it was exactly the reason for my question is that you think that we already do this or should we do the test case and go from there that's a very difficult question to answer that's that that's for council to decide I think you should ask yourself are you happy with the quality of the reports that you seem to help you make your decision on this vote okay let me ask it in a different way do you think there's going to be an Associated cost of this we will do more work to provide you with more information if that's what you want that cost more money things will take longer that costs more money and do you have the staff to do this things will take longer because we don't have more stuff to do this work so it's the same amount of staff doing more work because it takes more work to put more in the report simply put thank you your worship thanks alderman Jones alderman Stevenson thank you again for GM tobert the first resolved is very direct that's its directing you to do these things how do you see that resolve compare working together with the further be at resolve can you explain to me what you have to do on this first report sherbert well that's the whole purpose of the second now further be it resolved because if this was asked for in every single report every single report would get much much longer even the small ones that would get much much longer so you know we actually had a discussion at the lunch break about whether or not we needed to when council commission's report they should actually give us do you want the heavy medium or light because then we're really talking about expectations on reports and how much detail do you want because we're here to give you what you need to make good decisions but if something is not in a report we can call you and you get it for us right and you do that now yes absolutely okay thank you or two thanks alderman Stevenson anyone else before I call an alder and Marta close alder and Marta close before I close I've just got a couple of quick questions for for the administration because mr. tobert you can't really old anymore were you allow it already solution on this item okay well I can I can move right along if council has a look at the first results it says such information to include but not be limited to most of the information you're right is already there yes there is previous council director what I'm saying is we want to make sure that we're receiving the information that we need so obviously we want to be able to be how do we get to this this place how what's the background what is the risks the triple bottom a lot bottom line analysis that I see right now is very light I would like more detail on that multiple scenarios an alternative obviously we're not going to ask this for absolutely every report we were not going to anticipate that if you were doing a name change a street name change or a road closure or something that's that's quite simplistic usually they will say triple bottom line assessment risks none things like that it's a one-liner it's it's a syllable for crying out loud we're not actually asking for council to reinvent or sorry administration to reinvent the wheel when we are talking about a billion dollar project for example the West LRT when three years ago of probably pretty close to three years ago today newly elected alderman Connolly and myself were asked to work with our community on a brand new West LRT a billion dollar system would it have been helpful to have more information I think it would have been and many of you know that a lot of the changes that were made in the West LRT was a result of all port that appeared mysteriously in my mailbox this is something that I want future councils to have to be able to avoid how would this help it alderman Chabot I think that what we would be able to see is providing the information is given to us in a time of the way to with alternatives we well it was it was a it was a mysterious report certainly but it eventually made it to the light of day and I think that that's something that we want if we are making decisions on the best but sorry for for calgarians ensuring that we have the best information we will trust our administration to send it to us clearly we're going to need them to be able to vet and choose which of the reports are are in need of these alternatives how we got to where we're going justify the recommendation that they're making all them in stevenson is preparing for a major major infrastructure project in the northeast the airport tunnel or the 96th avenue underpasses we like to we'd like to refer to it now don't you want the best information have you been able to get all the best information that you've been requesting throughout the entire time because I seem to recall many times you going back and back and back and back for more information so I think this is exactly what you want this is exactly what we need and especially when many of us campaigned on greater transparency people that are picking up the agendas at home want to know how did you get to this decision this tells them it's very transparent it's better governance it's just the right thing to do and I'd ask for a recorded vote thanks alderman Mar so a recorded vote on notice of motion I've forgotten the number but you all know what it is on council report templates 11 1.1 well NM 2010 44 that's what I was looking for no it doesn't obscure believe in the clear on the recorded boat alderman Mar for alderman Hodges for alderman Farrell against alderman Carra for alderman colley-urquhart for alderman Chabot against alderman Demong for alderman MacLeod for alderman pootmans against alderman Keating for alderman Stevenson against alderman Jones against alderman Pincott against bernanke for scary chipper sure Thank You alderman colley-urquhart your worship on the next item it's this urgent matter of business on the police connection not yet motion arrived oh we've got so we got 11.2 first which is one we added on the louise station briefly oh well yes but i was just hoping that we could discuss this item in camera because there's a letter to circulate for members of council before we go into brief you on a bit for a bit of background in camera so i was just going to say let's not deal with that urgent matter right now okay so the best way to do that alderman colley-urquhart is why don't you give me a motion to table item 12.1 until after the in-camera so what that was what I intended that's exactly what I said yeah thanks babe worship on a motion on a procedural motion if we're going to do a motion arising on the last motion should have not be immediately following the motion did you have one I would like to put flow so I'm inhale your card I'm going to put you on clothes I'm sorry alderman Chabot I can ask go ahead thank you worship on that to last motion that was approved by council I think we need to provide further direction on that to direct administration to also provide some cost estimates on providing these this format of reporting on an ongoing basis okay alderman Jones is seconding that so you just have a simple motion that administration also be requested to provide cost estimates arising from arising from notice of motion 2010 44 correct very well and alderman Jones is seconding any debate on that matter hey on that matter then are we agreed any opposed carried now alderman colley-urquhart thank you your worship I would like to table the urgent a matter of business 12.1 till after the in-camera session and if madam clerk would circulate the letter on behalf of the chairman of the Commission to members of council now so they can see this very well do you have a seconder on that table in motion alderman Mar and he just no it's not debatable yeah so on that motion then to table item 12.1 until after the in-camera session or we agreed any opposed alderman Hodges is opposed all right very well then now we move to section 11.2 Louise station I'm proposing Council that we play this one as follows well ask mr. Stevens to make his presentation council will have the opportunity to ask him questions I'll then accept a motion to accept his report for information and you'll have a chance to debate it then I'm going to rely very closely on mr. Tully if there are issues that mr. Tully suggests given pending litigation or other matters are better dealt with in camera i will just alert you to that at that time all right so mr. Stevens thank you maybe your worship members council how's that I can do it from there I can i can flip back and forth if that's okay much better thank you how's that there we go we have connection thank you your worship and members of council for the opportunity to be able to brief you on this file this this is a project that has created safe affordable housing and some municipal facilities in downtown Calgary it's been referred to at different times as different kinds of files and i'll tell you why that is in in just a moment you can see you're familiar with the project it's up and operating now its success of the project was successfully incorporated into a mixed-use and a mixed-income development model the project really consists of two sites and this is the 838 fourth avenue southwest site referred to as the louise station site the other property that we're going to talk about in the moment refers to oh Claire so that's why you're seeing them referenced in two different ways the site that is currently up and operating is as eighty eight units of affordable housing 116 units of market housing a fire and EMS station three floors of office at grades and supporting retail along with four levels of underground parking and that's that underground parking is a significant issue that we'll come back to in in a moment the other property is a 727 first avenue southwest or the eau claire property it's a 10-story 72 unit affordable housing building built back in two thousand 1970 and you'll see throughout my presentation that in approximately two thousand five the calgary housing company began discussions about whether or not they were wanted to continue to operate that facility in what they would do with that building the ville now the replacement property at louies station was built and then the property in Eau Claire could then be vacated with the tenants moving out I wanted to provide you with the same context that I provided land committee with and this was not just a affordable housing project that just kind of dropped into our plates on in 2005 2006 there was a significant amount of history that predated this this transaction starting all the way back in two thousand when there was a status report on homelessness and affordable housing initiatives quite a lengthy report that went to committee and the key result coming from that report was a direction to the administration to go out and seek partnerships joint venture opportunities and really seek opportunities to partner with private the private sector and the not-for-profit sector in the development of affordable housing initiatives this was an attempt and in a direction by counsel to the administration to really transform the way we were doing affordable housing to get away from the traditional model of just bending inland and walking away it was really a way to do something new and innovative by involving the private sector and not merely just rely on the government and the not-for-profit sector in July of 2002 report 2002 57 there was an additional update the corporate affordable housing strategy where we took some of the earlier direction from two years previous and began to develop a strategy that council endorsed to increase affordable housing through the reprofiling of existing stock which is what happened on this file and to seek revised operating agreements with the province of Alberta again with specific reference to do so in the context of the new partnership opportunities as a way to leverage what limited resources we had by way of land this was followed again in 2003 report 2003 44 the corporate affordable housing implementation plan and the key outcome of this report again was the first time that we really saw the direction from City Council to start talking about 200 units of affordable housing every year that was the first time we saw that goal it emerged and they said what would counsel said to us as a result what would it take how much money would we need in order to leverage money from the province to create 200 units of affordable housing every year those discussions were then moved forward and many of you participated in some of you who weren't even on council who are here today participated as part of the mayor's roundtable on affordable housing there were two sessions in november 2003 and the first session had approximately 50 representatives from the development industry building industry the finance industry and the not-for-profit sector and there was some outcomes of the first session leading to the second session were over 77 people from the same industries join together with the outcome of trying to figure out a way that we could organize the way things were happening there was some work being done in the not-for-profit sector there was work begin done and the government sector both municipally and provincially and there was a desire to coordinate what was happening and so the key result of that was the city of calgary i was asked and did approved funding for the establishment of a quarterback position which was really the first step seen towards facilitating the delivery of affordable housing through new and innovative means it wasn't again this was the first step to really move away from that traditional model and many of you will know that previous alderman Longstaff was the first quarterback that was retained and served as with the kaveri homeless foundation that's where the position resided based upon the funding from the city of calgary so working now in consultation with the private industry i should say that as part of that mayor's roundtable that's where we got our first look at this project the lewis the lease station project was something that was discussed as part of these some hundred and over well over a hundred people coming forward to look at the various opportunities it was publicly discussed as an opportunity and seen or given to the administration to see whether or not this was something worthy of further pursuit so in 2004 we brought a further report forward saying okay now we have direction from the publicly held Prost us through the mayor's roundtable what kind of funding do we need in order to have a sustainable resource management plan going forward and council provided that to us and it was provided to us in two phases and that was when we began to see the real evolution of a be funding through the province of Alberta in 2005 we got down to the specific details we were able to cost units we were able to determine what the cost of wood frame versus concrete those kinds of things we could really see how much money it was we're going to be required in order to either acquire or construct affordable housing the this issue became so important at the initiative of aldermen Hawksworth I remember being at a strategic planning session with the City Council where they began that this was a fairly hefty price tag in order to ensure that we were going to try and build 200 units there was a fairly hefty price tag because again provincial funding was only providing a portion of the funding and so there was some discussion as to whether or not City of Calgary was going to be able to afford and sustain its effort to create these 200 units every year and it became such an important issue that they were incorporated into the overall corporate goals to initiate 200 units of affordable housing in 2006 2007 and 2008 and City Council at that point in time made a considerable commitment to match the funding lied there thirty percent to match the seventy percent provincial funding in order to move this program forward at this time there began to be discussions as I referenced early with the Calgary Housing Company I know some of you were sitting on Calgary housing company at the time where they began to talk about the asset at first avenue and what would be done with it and in CHC 2005 49 the audit risk committee actually put together a task force specifically to deal with the future of 727 first avenue and in 2005 54 that was when a calgary housing company came back with recommendations that based upon the previous discussions of counsel to find a private sector partner and to get into the reprofiling of assets that this asset was a primary provided a primary opportunity to be able to do that social setting many of you will recall was some substantial social programs social problems that were happening at that location unfortunately culminating in a murder-suicide that through the community for a loop as well as administration to really determine what was going to happen so although I didn't sit on see it was not sitting on CHC at the time going back and reviewing all the information I can see that the decision and the recommendation coming forward to counsel was really in three different areas there was the social part of that the operating model was not working the property was throwing a severe loss every year and the revenue coming in was nowhere near the amount required in order to meet the operating costs of 727 First Avenue and so ultimately the recommendation was to repro file that property and there was some discussion about whether or not or how much it was going to cost to actually deal with the renovation of that property and depending upon whether it was 80 or 90 thousand dollars a unit you could be spending anywhere from five and a half to approximately six and a half million dollars on an asset that had about at a market value of approximately 3.8 million dollars so between the operating costs between the capital value of the capital asset the social problems that were happening there I believe that was the basis of the recommendation ultimately to come forward get rid of the building be able to provide Andrey profile that site and at that point in time the discussions around the project that I'm briefing you on today really began to pick up in 2006 there was a financial plan financial update given to City Council with respect to affordable housing in the strategic financial plan there were opportunities the administration had been asked to go can find additional opportunities for funding so we had brought back pieces of land that we could look at selling to create money for the addition or creation of affordable housing with respect to the specific transaction there began to be discussions in early 2006 discussions and negotiations independent appraisals were commissioned but I can tell you that at that point in time City Council had just approved a new real estate by law in consultation with the industry we had heard that some of the frustrations that were there was is that when the private sector private individuals were dealing with City Council often lots of money was spent spent was money was spent on appraisals it was a lot of work done bringing a potential real-estate transaction to the City of Calgary only then to be presented to City Council and city council would say what was the basis of this so we went back and redid the process we cut six weeks out of transaction times we were really trying to figure out a better way to do with real estate transactions and what we did we introduced a new method of disposition we called it and said before the parties run out and spend a whole bunch of money on transactions let's come to City Council right at the outset let's find out whether or not the basics of the transaction are what council would ultimately whether or not they would consider that what that would be a good opportunity for us to do so in MLAs 2006 144 that report a publicly available report was brought to City Council for discussion where we laid out the general terms of the agreement we had were in very early on in negotiations we had had some appraisal information but we said here's the general concept new prop new properties will be built at the fourth avenue property the first avenue property will be sold the building will be demolished this is how it will be funded here's generally what we know would you like us to proceed and with some specificity City Council said yes and in report that was discussed both at land committee and publicly at City Council there the important parts was that there was approval to do a direct negotiation with the developer at the time and we were to use independent appraisals to be able to do the verification of the valuations and I can tell you that throughout that has been the case the valuations of the First Avenue property and the fourth avenue property have both been based upon independent evaluation evaluations that were discussed discussed extensively at at land committee in shortly after once we got council approval to continue on there was some concern raised over the varying amounts of the appraisal differencing differences of opinion in the valuations and so what the administration did is we went back out to the independent appraiser and got an updated valuation we got some facts updated and we got another independent appraisal confirming the value at 4.2 million dollars the actual negotiation actually ended up giving the citizens of Calgary 4.5 million dollars so we got more money than what was set out in the independent appraisal at the time there were actually three independent appraisals to commissioned by the developer one commissioned by the city of calgary now the other important part of the method of disposition is is that that is traditionally the date that the administration sets for the valuation of land and the reason for that is is that the City of Calgary has no authority nor do we speculate inland so we try as best we can to nail down the price of a future option at the time that City Council gives us the approval and that was in this case approximately October of 2006 that was the date of the valuation because we do not speculate and land so on a future transaction of course the land values can go up the land values can go down we do not play the market when it comes to real estate and where we can we try and fix that date as of the date of the approval of City Council which was October of 2006 so the updated appraisal information was provided and we then came back to City Council a second time we had been further down the line with discussions and negotiations with the developer and we came back to City Council land committee and City Council a second time in a publicly discussed report in 2007 111 where we had moved the process further and said to City Council we have a little bit more detail we have some initial designs we can see how the fire hall is going to be integrated into the overall process would you like us to continue we've not gone out to tender any of the buildings or anything like that would you still like to continue and I can tell you that at that point in time there was some initial indications and I remember a fairly lengthy debate at land committee over three specific items the amount per door and I think I reference this is the very beginning the cost of this transaction per door and we went through the pro forma several times because of the audit cost of underground parking this was for grounds for ground four floors of underground parking which had a significant impact on the cost of these units so we went through the performace several times with City Council that was the first number that we talked about the second number was the option number and the third number was the valuation for the fourth avenue property long discussions long debate in land committee over that information because i distinctly remember the discussion about why these units are costing three hundred and twenty thousand dollars a door quite frankly it was they were different from the other projects that we were doing at crestwood and a couple of other projects primarily because of the underground parking in the downtown so again 2011 2007 111 council said yes go ahead continue on with the negotiations again public document the only document that wasn't public at the time was the heads of agreement because it was still evolving we were still in negotiations and that was the document that was not made public the final report again for the last time in two thousand mate 73 we came back a third time to City Council because what had happened is that when we had actually tendered the project in order to get the LEED certification that we wanted for the fire hall the cost had gone up approximately two million dollars so we came back to City Council and said we have a budget but we need an appropriation if you'd like us to get the leads standard we've tendered we have not made any commitments yet would you like to proceed with the project before we make any commitments would you like us to to proceed at that point in time we got final approval to go ahead and complete the transaction which which we have done at following the completion of the 2008 73 of the City of Calgary engaged a quantity surveyor firm by the name of a Cuthbert Smith that we used in order to ensure that the allocation of costs between the market housing and the affordable housing was kept separate and distinct now this is a firm that was used by banks for mortgage processing and financing and we use them and every invoice that we received from the developer we had reviewed by the independent third-party the quantity surveyor to ensure that the cost citizens were paying were for the two buildings that were going to be owned by the citizens not the market tower so the that takes us to where we are today the the project at louies station has was completed the affordable housing tower was officially opened in February 2010 and a few months later in May 2010 the the fire station was was officially opened with that I think I'll conclude your worship and take any questions that members of council might have thank you very much mr. Stevens I was just going to say I have a whole bunch of questions and I don't see any lights on but alderman colley-urquhart beat me to it no go ahead I'll go at the end Thank You mr. Stevens for your presentation can you confirm whether or not at 8 f AR should be at 21,500 5001 35 square feet for about a hundred and seventy two thousand square foot building that's in your uh that's in your documentation not at this so ahead I so happy that they are or could one of your staff flesh that out for me if we had the right numbers we could probably do some work I see James working on some now a time maybe I think your direction by maybe I could simplify it more where did the 12,000 square out of land for the market tower at louies station come from well maybe I can add a little clarification mr. Stevens I I think I understand at all during colley-urquhart is asking the price that was paid to us for the louies station land appears to have been calculated according to LA s 2007 111 on a 227 dollar per square foot for 12,000 square feet approximately however at the 8 f AR it seems that the building is considerably larger than that so was the square foot number wrong or the price per square foot wrong or done your ship is that the I don't have that level of detail here I can tell you that again the the independent appraiser that was used that was the basis of the information that we used it was for the fourth avenue property that you asked for the louise station yes so yes independent appraiser was the one that went out gave us the information had done some analysis and review of the FA are in the area but I be honest I don't have that calculation sitting here right uh if there are a number of questions that we have that if we were to ask to go away and have these questions answered would probably be the best way your worship to do this pin you are you able to comment on the fact that in the engineering report that that the city-owned 72 unit affordable housing complex was in poor condition versus an engineering report that said it was in good condition you worship as I understand the reports there was one report that talked about the building being fairly sound structurally but there was two issues that were evolving the systems were in terrible need of repair I think members of council recall the huge additional cost of security that was put into the building in the operating costs and finally there were systems if you go if you drive by the site now you know that many of the this building was built in nineteen seventy so many of the systems are actually on the ground floor and if there were a flood you can actually see it's actually built below the flood plain now there were serious concerns that if that were the case it would shut down the building so some of the costs that were involved dealt with moving some of those based systems up to the roof or one of the top floors resulting in losses of affordable housing units so so you may not have the detail on this question either but another question I had was based on your comparison of effective land values x component the appraisal was commissioned and completed by Durant consulting and the effective date of that report was May tenth 2006 and this was about 14 months before the approval of la s 2007 111 do you recall that or is that something that we should get answered later no no your worship the effective date as I indicated is the date of the method of disposition that's the date that council actually improves the transaction and that's the date where we try and avoid speculation so I I said I think I've said earlier my presentation the evaluation came back at 4.2 million part way through 2006 the date the council actually gave approval was October of 2006 and so the amount was adjusted an additional $300,000 moved from 4.2 to 4.5 so that we could set it at the date that council actually gave us the initial approval which was October 2006 so I was wanting to have you comment more on parking in the parking stalls and the arrangement that occurred there in relation to the affordable housing component with the parking stalls no I'm not sure I could in what respect I'm not certainly call your cut you want to try that one yeah I was working my way through the numbers of the last one it's just this this this is difficult I think what's best is probably to bring forward a motion and then if we all have questions that we would submit them to whoever is going to review this as I think I think you're likely right alderman Carra so it sounds like the questions are at a level of detail that we're not going to get answers on them tonight and so i'll just ask other members of council to think about what mr. Stevens can legitimately answer to us this evening all during the cloud thank you your worship perhaps my question falls in the same category because it's about parking can you tell me how many parking stalls per unit as compared to know okay sorry any sense of what the incremental cost of parking was in relation to the unit cost I think I haven't gone specifically I believe that the parking that one of the reports that I'd seen it was in the neighborhood of thirty five thousand forty thousand dollars just all part of me I'm at the time again that could be order of magnitude I remember the discussion at land committee talking about a significant increase to the three hundred and twenty thousand dollar per door being significantly related in the pro forma to the cost of parking Thank You mr. Stevens opener club and that of course just punctuates another issue that affordable housing in the core area and the requirements for parking it's an ongoing problem it's good to see that the city has the same problem as the nonprofit's to providing that party thank you all the McLeod alderman pootmans thank you your worship yeah I exactly on parking as well this is four stories below grade my understanding is that going down four stories lots become significantly more than thirty five thousand dollars Tina just some sense of they were approaching in terms of not with me i'm recalling from memory that fairly long discussion we had at land committee about that pro forma and what the impact of the cost of parking woes I could be off by hopefully not a big magnitude but I distinctly remember that discussion of an coming thank you your worship then are we going to prepare quite what do you know what a view we forget it a process for I think all of us would like a little more detail and probably all have a lot of questions what will what will the price I do have a process that I was actually the Dalton Collier Kirk and I have a process that shall suggest going forward but let's get out the questions now that we can and then we'll have an opportunity to talk about those older and more thank you in worship all of improvements in all McLeod went quite along the same path that I wanted to go in terms of the parking because that seems to be one of the major discrepancies in terms of the land costs and how we ended up at three hundred and some 1,000 dogs bird or one of the other questions you had mentioned that this was in the floodplain and it was in nineteen seventy or so building were there any other issues with the building that would have required us to demolish it rather than to to restore can you speak to that a little bit was it had it been flooded before things of that nature no I think the answer the last question is no I'm looking around because I think some of my colleagues maybe had more more an understanding of actually what happened in that old Claire district then I do I don't believe there was ever a flood I do know that it was close I do know that there was a worry one night during a winter thaw I do remember seeing that in one of the reports but I don't know if it actually ever came to be that there was a concern again the discussion really resulted around how much additional money do you want to spend on an asset that it was had been valued at about 3.8 million dollars and we can tell you not at the time I can tell you now having gone into the building and knowing there are asbestos problems and challenges but probably weren't taken into account at the time but would have to have been taken into account and you have to have to understand that at the time the provincial money did not you couldn't use provincial money to renovate units was there oh that's interesting to note yeah either bought or you either bought or built that was the provincial funding program at the time and that was one of the requirements in order for the city to move forward you would have had to have this money the provincial money because that represented what percentage of the cost I was about 12 million dollars of toll or which represents what percentage think it was 28 7 about 28 million dollars using round number so 12 million of the 28 okay so almost half about forty forty five percenter give or take a further substantial amount okay my next question you mentioned asbestos and and some other issues was it also post in tension cable or is it it oh do you remember I don't know you don't know that that's not something that's been in the report that I've seen okay because that obviously has has implications in terms of safety of the building and things of that nature now many buildings of this vintage this era had their utilities located in the main floor but in the basement where with where was the utilities for this in the basement and in the basement and in the event that there was a flood it would Brenda the building virtually useless is on all right yeah more than virtually I think it would be useful okay and now you mentioned the program where the City of Calgary sorry not City of Calgary the province of Alberta it is very clear in public in those documents that you could not proceed without having a new building either purchased or constructed renovating existing units this was this was a goal the province to add to the housing inventory not said not to change the existing inventory it was about buying or building okay if my point was was this is that information public and it has been for some time yes okay I'm interested in hearing what the rest of my colleagues are going to say but that's a very very interesting point thank you thanks alderman Mar alderman Chabot thank you worship so that was a mandate to provide X number of units per year and this was one of the projects that had come forward for council to consider was there was there other projects that had come forward that were delayed or put off as a result of moving forward with this project no as I indicated when council gave us the direction and actually incorporate excuse me incorporated the goals of 200 units per year they put their money where their mouth was they actually gave us a we were actually involved in other projects crestwood this two grand there were other projects that were going on at about the same time they may have been further advanced but there were other projects that we were doing to add to the affordable housing inventory that's just a static mr. Shue so there were other projects some of them were considerably less per door right yes so this particular project as you indicated that was into some debate in committee as to the cost per door and I think part of the debate of course was what is considered to be affordable housing and but this form part of achieving the 200 units per year it did there was difference in cost of parking as I indicated this was not at grade parking and this was concrete this wasn't wood construction there was some others that we were involved in that was there were work instructions of the costing was different okay so council gave approval in May of 2006 and the sorry October of 2000 so that's when the decision was ratified by council right and it was based on an appraisal done in me there's that the way I understand so just run that again we had done some initial appraisals early in 2006 at 4.2 later in 2006 when council actually gave us approval that was the date that we wanted to set so we weren't speculating in land that yielded the adjustment from 4.2 million to 4.5 million to take into account that difference but prices were escalating quite a bit around that time anyways right yes so the fact that we're able to get a little more a little bit more money is more reflective of what was going on in the market than anything I think that's fair okay so now there's been some suggestion that in what in 2007 2007 111 what exactly transpired at that point that's when we entered into a contract agreement to build the new units no so 2011 we had come back with a status report and attached to that was a heads of agreement saying we're still negotiating here's what we've got some design now we've spent a little bit of money we haven't actually go into tender but we've got some designs this is what we think it's going to look like this is how we're going to integrate with the EMS we had been up to the community we had done some community consultation and we were now reporting back to say you still want to go see these this cost is going to be significant we've not expended too much cost now and you still want to proceed with the project okay so meanwhile both as far as the sale of the building that that deal was pretty much written in stone couldn't alter that agreement which building the Louise building the fourth Avenue building on the agreement had not been signed to used to that that had not transpired him but it all formed part of the whole part of a whole that's right and this again at that point in time no formal commitments we were back to council saying do you want to proceed we've been out to the community we're still negotiating here's the heads of agreement we talked about the three numbers that we discussed that lengthen camera but put that at the transaction to not closed so 2008 73 what was that oh yes that was when we came back a third time and said now we've gone out and we've cost it the developer has gone out and tendered information and we now have the costing on what it's going to get us to have leads fire hall still not committed you want to go our recommendation was to go and count that's when council said go and after that that's when we started to finalize everything and that's when we were committed okay so here as cost were escalating in her own that time would it not have been possible to renegotiate the price at the 4.5 million on the fourth Avenue build or is that part of the whole negotiation so you always could and and let's be clear about that if council wants to give the administration directors and to speculate on that we could we could let it go we could we could determine whether or not land values go up or go down but at that point in time though it's with a number that had been negotiated we discussed it at committee and said these are the negotiated numbers based upon the independent appraisals as of that date we're sticking to our desire to not speculate and that's the number see I wish the school board worked on that same premise because of David Diehl insight we could have bought at 1.98 million at one point ended up paying six million for school board anyways those are all the questions I have for now I'm certainly looking forward to looking up some of these reports and see if I can put together in my own mind as to why I voted the way I did and why we didn't ask administration to speculate on an ovoid understand that that's not the business that we're in your worship I think ultimately there may have been some decisions that council made that could have potentially got us more money for that facility when the salesmen enemies I'll listen to some more discussion Thank You alderman Chabot alderman Carra thanking you worship um I just scribbled something here and I don't know if it's amusing but I think it sort of highlights something that I think should be sort of put into mind and systems upgrade for a 1970s building X million dollars moving those systems from the below the flood lane to the top of the building X million dollars and then revamping a structurally sound circa 1970s social housing building into something livable for its tenants priceless and I think that that's something that doesn't go into these valuations is the fact that the social housing of that era might have been structurally sound but it was you know heroic genius architect planners experimenting on human guinea pigs and they were failures and so how you evaluate that is is something to consider thank you for your presentation I'm glad you came this is very similar to the report we received an LA s in camera and at that time the big threat was the pending lawsuit and I don't mean but right now we have a new sort of thing that's come up there's the Calgary Herald report they've hired an independent consultant they feel this independent consultant feels like we got hoes to the tune of five to ten million dollars rather than try and pull individual numbers out of you I'm going to try and do what I did in camera and just ask you to give us your best guess as to what the basis of those numbers are and what that evaluator is thinking and why they might be thinking that and maybe explain the gap between what you're presenting to us and what and what you're getting um you're welcome to answer that mr. Stevens mr. Tully says it's okay but understanding that this is a guess on your part yeah understanding that it's a guess my apologies and I it would be again I'm not an appraiser and the basis of that as I indicated at the very beginning there were two things that we brought to City Council is the basis of the deal one a direct negotiation with the developer into that both transactions would be verified by an independent appraisal so I've reviewed the appraisals I've cross-examined appraisers in my past I have a very good understanding and but to speak to what went into their valuations I it would be a guess I can tell you from Calgary housing company's point of view the concept that you had about a social part of that building was really a key consideration in moving forward on the project yeah I I appreciate I'm not asking for you to sort of give me a different appraisal order I'm so I mean I guess what I'm asking you is that what the Calgary heralds report is coming down to is a totally different appraisal than the appraisals we were basing our deal on or is it something else in your estimation we're veering closely into a speculative stuff alderman Carras bat mr. Stevens if you want to your worship I would prefer that I think there is an issue of would be an in-camera issue to discuss with regard to that all right okay thank you alderman Pincott well thank you and Altamont rob was asking similar questions that that that I want to ask around the I mean kind of the nub of the thing is is people feeling that there's different appraisals out there and that and so if those questions need to be answered in camera I I would support a motion to to go actually I would move to building camera after I asked one quite one specific question mr. Stevens one of the questions around the cost is so much per door it's a lot of money per door for affordable housing that is driven by ultimately by the location you're forced to do underground parking if you do parking in that type of site at what point the council have its direction around affordable housing to have affordable housing throughout the city that its goal was to to look at making sure that we were supplying affordable housing everywhere I don't want to overstate it to say direction but that was one of the topics that was really discussed at the mayor's round table that we wanted to get beyond imbi ism we wanted that was one I think there was 8 tenants that came out of them and one of them was to put together and then be strategy so that we could do away with some of the myths of affordable housing and so I don't want to say that was a direction but as early on in 2003 I would say there was a discussion and a desire to have affordable housing in all areas of the city okay all right so so that so it's quite clear that that preceded this discussion so at least by three price was the pure sure thing around it then it would all be in stick built in the suburbs yes if you yeah if you didn't want to do you would go to that you try and find the cheapest part of every input costs land materials labor yeah you try and build it as cheaply as you as you could surface parking the like okay so so this also so as part of the the 200 per year it was also tied into we're putting we're looking at at having affordable housing yes and members of council the previous members of council will know that there have been other projects that were acquired for exactly that reason the acquisition costs were in the range that were acceptable to City of Calgary but the dominant issue was is that we wanted to have affordable housing in as many communities as we could get and certainly we've had those those issues about other affordable housing projects since I've been on council for the very same same reason and thanks that's my question alderman Carra raised a very important point about how we do affordable housing now versus how it was done in the 60s and 70s and it's it's it's almost like be the first Street building was set up for failure and and there was no I mean I was I wasn't on council I wasn't around on Calgary housing company board of directors at that time but I can well imagine the conversation around that building and how it just cannot work as an affordable housing project it's just set up for filler with that I would I only have two more on the speaker's lists can I ask you to wait and and i would i'd like a place of motion so we go in camera to discuss our next step is to go into any camera portion of our meeting you getting this and some other things alright so if i can exhaust the speaker's list then we can do that you gotta thank thank you i have a calm and holy your cart your light is on and i have some questions too you've spoken on this but i was just going to say your worship it's very difficult to drill down into any kind of detail and i thought that we would share this motion to to just find a mechanism if anyone has any questions at all to submit them if we were to hire an expert in this area I don't see that many answers will be answered in camera in a verbal session it'll just go round and round so I'll move that whenever it's appropriate let's take the opportunity in camera because mr. Stevens did mention there was one item he wanted to bring up there and then when we rise in report I suspect we'll be able to move that motion mr. Stevens if I may as you know I have six big questions and i'm not sure if you'll be able to answer many of them but i'm going to ask you one and this is the one that has always been sticking with me the issue with the city's decision to charge only for the land on the first avenue property and take on the cost of the demolition of the building ourselves and transfer that is bare land I've just never heard of this before is this consistent with industry practice do you have examples of when this has been done before I don't have specific examples but I can tell you that was discussed and it was discussed thoroughly at land committee to say it's a it was a it was a detractor to the land it was it was seen and there are many times I don't have them and I can get them to you where there's actually an improvement on the land that detracts from the value of the land itself and and we know that at a minimum this building required eighty to ninety thousand dollars per unit of upgrade between six and a half five and a half and six and a half million dollars at a minimum to upgrade and to find someone who wanted to spend that on a 3.8 million dollar asset I believe from my reading of the documentation again I wasn't on CH see that was that was not going to happen in the marketplace in the real estate market place in path time you can understand of course though mr. Stevens that with the benefit of hindsight a decision to not spend 5 to 6 million and rather spend close to 30 million seems to be a very strange decision again your worship if you did it just upon the numbers yes but i would say that there's three different elements that went into the decision of CHC to recommend that they move away from the asset thank you I don't know that you'll be able to answer this but I'm going to ask it anyway one of the strange things about the cost of construction on this is that we have two different three different projects really going in on the same parcel of land and just looking at the sale price of the market value housing I'd be surprised if their price for nicer units with balconies etc was three hundred and twenty thousand per unit given what they're selling them for do you have any sense of what the apportion of common costs was between the three across the three projects not with me I just took a peek back again I I could probably find that out because we did hire an independent quantified surveyor who looked at every receipt or every bill that was sent to us by the developer to make sure that the construction costs were apportioned appropriately between the three facilities this may be more question for alderman Pincott actually in his role as chair of the Calgary housing company but there was some two questions really number one was have all of the tenants from the o'clair been transitioned into Louise station and the second question is there was some talk in the media about how Louise station actually has fewer deep subsidy units than oh Claire did could you talk about both of those please yes it does have fewer deep subsidy deep subsidy units it has a total of twenty six people that's right so that just in in and of that no they were not transitioned and i'm not sure i don't have the date that they would have moved out of the first street look at the eau claire location but but nonetheless there no they did not transition where we meet you know if we were able to find housing for them all I mean I don't know that specifically but you know honestly miss mr. Stephen says yes okay so I was going to say I'm sure we did that said the Louis station site operates as a mixed income model the Eau Claire site did not operate as a mixed income model that was part of how the Eau Claire site was set up for quite frankly failure failure of the building and we were but most importantly we were failing the people who actually lived there the successful models that we know are ones that are mixed income and the Louise station site is exactly that it is a 26 units that are deep subsidy there are eight accessible units and the rest are a range up to near what we call near market so nineteen ninety percent of market so up to near market that is a model that sets up the building for success as it requires less security it requires less ongoing maintenance it requires less it requires less social supports that sets the building up for success it also sets up everybody who lives there for success it is a building that is operated on a completely different model we have learned a lot about how we do this and Louise station is set up on a model to be successful within the portfolio that it resides the Louise station is also set up to operate on what we call on a break even so the the costs of operating the building are are established to be paid for by the rent within the building so it's set up to be a break of even building it is not subsidized it by any level of government in its operation thank you anyone else with questions for mr. Stevens madam clerk before I take a motion to go in camera we have a number of other items that will deal with in the same in-camera session given that do I need to take a motion to accept this report for information before we move forward ok and then and Part B of this is on our in-camera agenda so I will take a motion then to accept Thank You alderman Pincott do I have a seconder alderman Chabot any discussion on that very well then to accept this report for information are we agreed all right I'll take a motion now to move into the in-camera session alderman Hodges all during Pincott yeah are we agreed great all right we'll just move back here so we have a number of in-camera items that we will be covering in this session and we will come back and rise and report on all of them shortly well move that council rise and report you worship thank you we agreed we okay very well I'll do not just move that we extend our meeting tonight that's not quite the wording we extend tonight's meeting to finished completely today's agenda by the seconder thanks alderman Jones on the motion to extend the agenda and so they complete extend the meeting time and fill the completion of the agenda are we agreed any opposed okay very well alderman colley-urquhart so your worship I don't know which one we're dealing with on the matter of urgent business in relation to the Police Commission what we were asking was for the law department to go away and bring back and amending by law for next Monday which mr. Tully is quite prepared to do but if we don't deal with it tonight and it's going to be delayed till January so let me suggest let's finish the item the current item yes and then I will recognize you on that is so madam clerk you have the the motion that we will put before council and the warehouses are many of the questions that were asked after mr. Stevens gave his presentation and I think we found that there probably wasn't an ideal venue to to get some of the detailed answers that we were looking for so on the operative part of the motion madam clerk if you could just put that in bold and increase the font so the motion is that council retain an expert in assessment and construction to answer the above questions and any other questions members of council may have along with any other applicable documentation and that such experts report back directly to council no later than April of 2011 and your worship as I understand this we want this to go through an RFP process that which transparent process that takes a while and then it will take a while to review the documentation at hand so so mr. tobert you were saying the first quarter okay yes good that's okay alderman Mar your second did it thank you so your worship maybe you want to speak to this as well I'll just hey thank you your worship and I appreciate the last minute addition in regards to governance because what I was going to ask is whether or not the identified skill sets to properly assess that would be identified through this mechanism and whether it was just a construction person and a real estate person whether they're we needed to have some additional skill sets in regards to properly assessing all the documentation I think I think the an expert or experts language probably covers us on that alderman Chabot if you're comfortable with that little steering committee we just invented not being able to assess that yeah and thank you for that final edition so I will support this recommendation i'm looking forward to to the findings of that committee I I still feel pretty confident in the decision that that council had made in the past and I really don't see this as an issue other than just making it more transparent so I will be supporting this hey thanks alderman Chabot alderman Hodges yeah just briefly you worship back kenna clerk produce a copy of this motion for us so we can get it later tonight or tomorrow morning please do we have given it to me thank you very much in the instant response anyone else on this motion oh this I'll just speak on it for a second before I call on you to close over and call your card we had a we have had good discussions about this item however there are as we suggested in the public portion of it earlier there remain unanswered questions and this is a process that will allow us to answer some of those questions without going too far down the proverbial rabbit hole so I think that this is a good compromise were responding to a great deal of interest from the public of finding up more answers on this on this item whilst really being careful about the fact that there is litigation going on and we don't want to go too far down the school so I strongly support this anyone else I'm gonna call your cards close close thank you so on the motion that you see on the screen are we agreed great any opposed carried alderman colley-urquhart members of council you'll have in front of you a letter from mr. Sheikh the good it was just you turned you off okay you'll have a letter in front of you from the Calgary Police Commission requesting that we add an additional two police commissioners to the Calgary Police Commission and under the police act the Alberta please act the Commission can have up to 12 members we've had nine members on the Police Commission for the last 22 years you can see in the motion that alderman Mar and I are bringing forward and and really members of council this request gets down to the workload that these citizen members have there are four standing policy committees over there that they that they have to work on it there's also a tremendous responsibility they have as far as being a district liaison to many of the different district offices and doing ride-alongs and so on and so forth and and also some of the commissioners also have other responsibilities on the Canadian Association to choose to please the board and also on the Albert Association of police commissions so we're bringing this forward at their request and the motion is that we asked the law department to bring forward and demanding by law in section 3 increasing the number 211 and that the reason for the urgency is that we wanted to use the resumes that have been submitted from org day of which there were about a hundred names in there and so we wouldn't need to advertise thanks you thank you thanks alderman colley-urquhart aldrin MacLeod and all burnsville thank you your worship I'll be very brief i am going to support this motion but I have some concerns about this arising from growing population because if you continue to grow your board at the rate of the population you're going to have a problem this board I assure is a governance board and needs to focus on governance as its primary activity everything else is optional and it sounds like 12 is limit anyway so thanks alderman MacLeod alderman Chabot that's good I'll ask a question while you're thinking I'll Demetriou something is like well I you can just answer it alderman colley-urquhart do we pay the citizen members they get it they get a small stipend nothing okay this is not like other boards okay that's all yeah I lost it okay anyone else before I call on alderman colley-urquhart to close I'm in colley-urquhart thank you yes alderman MacLeod I agree with you it's been at the same number for many many years and but where we really noticed an increase in the workload is with all the extra prevent and federal funding that have come in to police and and a lot of the interest around moving more to a community-based policing and this has to be one of the best governance boards that I've sat on in my years of service so I hope council will support this request thank you thanks alderman colley-urquhart on the motion urgent business are we agreed any opposed alderman Hodges is opposed excuse me carried all right I will accept a motion then to table the for in-camera items relating to appointments to committees alderman Carra seconded alderman Chabot so we'll table those two next Monday mm-hm oh I thought that one was gone on sorry all five then yep all right so all five to an in-camera session of council next Monday 13th December on that motion to table are we agreed administrative inquiries okay seeing none alderman Hodges move we adjourn second thanks alderman Jones and are we agreed any opposed adjourned thank you all

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