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>> GOOD MORNING, COMMITTEE. WE'LL BEGIN OUR AGENDA. FOR THOSE OF YOU IN THE AUDIENCE, WE HAVE ONE ITEM BEFORE WE HIT FLUORIDE. IT SHOULD BE A RELATIVELY QUICK ITEM. ON THAT NOTE, WE DO HAVE A SPEAKER'S LIST. WE'D LIKE YOU TO SIGN UP IF YOU WISH TO SPEAK ON FLUORIDE SO WE CAN GO FROM THE LIST. YOU DON'T ALL HAVE TO RUSH AT ONCE. OKAY. YOU CAN ALL RUSH AT ONCE. OUR FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS IS THE CONFIRMATION OF THE AGENDA. MOVED BY ALDERMAN STEVENSON. ARE YOU AGREED? OPPOSED? THAT'S CARRIED. NEXT ITEM OF BUSINESS IS CONFIRMATION OF THE MINUTES. MOVED BY ALDERMAN MacLEOD. ANY ERRORS, OMISSIONS, DELETIONS? ARE YOU AGREED? OPPOSED? THAT'S CARRIED. ITEMS OF NEW BUSINESS. FIRST ITEM IS UE 2011-01 THE GLENMORE BEARSPAW WATER TREATMENT PLANT UPGRADES. IS THERE A REQUEST FOR A PRESENTATION? NOBODY REQUIRES A PRESENTATION? IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS FOR ADMINISTRATION? IS THERE ANYBODY FROM THE PUBLIC THAT WISHES TO SPEAK TO UNE 2011-01? ANYBODY FROM THE PUBLIC THAT WISHES TO SPEAK TO THIS? SEEING NONE, ALDERMAN COLLEY-URQUHART. >> THANK YOU, GOOD MORNING. I WONDER IF YOU COULD JUST SPEAK TO THE RISK CATEGORY IN YOUR REPORT. IT SAYS THAT THE MANAGEMENT TEAM WAS SUCCESSFUL IN MANAGING RISKS RELATED TO THE PLANT SHUTDOWNS AND TIE-IN ACTIVITIES. ANY LEARNINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT PROCESS WOULD BE ONE QUESTION I HAVE. ANYWAY, THAT'S WHERE USUALLY WE LIKE TO FOCUS ON. SO IF YOU COULD JUST COVER OFF THAT. >> THE PROGRAM MANAGER AND INSTRUMENTAL IN THE WHOLE PROGRAM WILL SPEAK TO THAT. >> THANK YOU, SIR. >> DURING THE COURSE OF THE PROGRAM, OVER SEVEN YEARS, WE REQUIRED SHUTDOWNS AT BOTH PLANTS, BOTH AT BEARSPAW AND AT GLENMORE TO TIE IN THE NEW PROCESSES AND THE NEW PIPING. THIS WORK WAS COORDINATED WITH OPERATIONS, AND WE DEVELOPED PLANS TO ENSURE THAT WATER SERVICE WAS NOT INTERRUPTED. SOME OF THE LEARNINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT WAS WE DID LEARN THAT THERE ARE SOME CHALLENGES IN TRANSMITTING WATER FROM ONE PLANT TO THE OTHER. THERE WERE OCCASIONS WHERE THE CITY WAS BEING SUPPLIED BY ONE PLANT ONLY. AND WE PERFORMED SIX PLANT SHUTDOWNS, AND THEY ALL WENT VERY WELL. AND WE LEARNED AND GOT BETTER AT DOING THEM EACH TIME THAT WE HAD TO DO THEM. >> EXCELLENT. OKAY. KEEP GOING. ON THE REPORT, DO YOU HAVE IT IN FRONT OF YOU THERE? THE RISKS? >> SO WE INDICATED THAT USING A CONSTRUCTION MANAGER WAS AN ADVANTAGE IN GOING THROUGH THESE PLANT SHUTDOWNS. WE HAD A PARTNERSHIP WITH OUR ENGINEERING CONSULTANT AND THE CONSTRUCTION MANAGER. AND BECAUSE WE WERE IN A LONG-TERM PARTNERSHIP, THE LEARNINGS AND THE TEAM, THE CORE TEAM, WAS CONTINUOUS THROUGHOUT THE PROGRAM. AND IT ALLOWED THE WHOLE CONSTRUCTION TEAM TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW THOSE PLANTS WORKED. BECAUSE WE'RE OPERATING AND CONSTRUCTING AT THE SAME TIME. >> THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. >> THANK YOU, CHAIR. JUST DECLARING AN INTEREST. >> I JUST TURNED SOMEBODY OFF. WHO WAS IT? MOVED? ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, ALL IN FAVOUR? OPPOSED? IT'S CARRIED. NEXT ITEM OF BUSINESS IS FLUORIDE. UN 2011-02. THERE IS NO PRESENTATION ON THIS BY ADMINISTRATION FOR THE REASON BEING IT'S NOT AN ADMINISTRATION RECOMMENDATION. IT'S A RECOMMENDATION MADE BY COUNCIL. AND I'D LIKE TO TELL -- OR ASK THE PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE, BECAUSE OF THE LENGTH OF THE DAY THAT WE'RE ANTICIPATING, WE DO TAKE A BREAK FROM NOON UNTIL 1:15 AND WE DO TAKE A BREAK AT 3:15 TO 3:45. IF NEED BE WE'LL TAKE A DINNER BREAK FROM 6 O'CLOCK UNTIL 7:15. AND I'M HOPING THAT WE DON'T GET TO THE DINNER BREAK, BUT WE MAY. YOU'RE ALLOTTED FIVE MINUTES TO SPEAK. WHEN YOU COME FORWARD WE WOULD ASK YOU TO GIVE YOUR NAME. ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION, IF SOMEBODY'S ALREADY SAID WHAT YOU PLANNED TO SAY, WE DON'T NEED TO HEAR IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN. BECAUSE IT BECOMES LIKE A FORM LETTER THEN. SO IF YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING NEW TO ADD, WE APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT EVERYBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO SPEAK AND WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO SPEAK IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING NEW TO SAY. BASED ON THAT MADAME CLERK COULD YOU GIVE ME THE FIRST PAGE OF THE SPEAKERS' LIST SO I CAN START? ALDERMAN FARRELL. SO TO OPEN THIS, I'LL GO TO ALDERMAN FARRELL SEEING AS HOW IT'S HER NOTICE OF MOTION. ALDERMAN FARRELL. YOU CAN REMAIN SEATED. >> THANK YOU. WELL, I OF COURSE BROUGHT THE MOTION FORWARD TO COUNCIL WITH NINE OF MY COLLEAGUES COSIGNING THE MOTION. BUT IT WAS EXPRESSED BY SOME NEW MEMBERS OF COUNCIL, PARTICULARLY, FOR THEIR DESIRE TO HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC ON THIS MATTER. SO ALTHOUGH I HAVE AN OPINION, I WANT -- FOR THE COURTESY OF MY COLLEAGUES, I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THEY HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC. SO MY RECOMMENDATION WAS TO REFER THIS TO COUNCIL TO PROVIDE THAT OPPORTUNITY. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE TODAY. THERE'S TWO PARTS TO THE MOTION. IT INCLUDES REMOVAL OF FLUORIDE AND I IMAGINE THAT WILL BE THE TOPIC OF THE MAJORITY OF THE PRESENTATIONS. BUT ALSO THE QUESTION OF IF WE DO REMOVE FLUORIDE FROM OUR DRINKING WATER, WHAT WOULD BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CITY IN PROVIDING SOME ACCESS TO DENTAL CARE OR FLUORIDE TREATMENTS FOR PEOPLE OF LOW INCOME? AND SO THAT WOULD ALSO BE A TOPIC OF PRESENTATION, I'M HOPING. WHAT WOULD THAT GO FORWARD LOOK LIKE? AND THE MOTION IS FAIRLY SPECIFIC THAT WE ASK FOR ESTABLISHING A COMMITTEE TO LOOK AT THAT FURTHER. SO I GUESS WE'LL GET STARTED THEN. >> MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE, ADMINISTRATION HERE IS TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS FOR CLARIFICATION. IF YOU HAVE NO QUESTIONS OF CLARIFICATION, I'M GOING TO LET THEM GO. AND THEY'LL COME BACK LATER ON IN THE MEETING. Mr. PRITCHARD WILL STAY HERE. SO IF YOU -- BEFORE I DO THAT, THOUGH, I SEE ALDERMAN STEVENSON HAS A PRESENTATION? >> THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. WE HAVE WITH US TODAY A GROUP FROM THE AGAPE LANGUAGE CENTRE AND THE TEACHER IS KAREN KAJORNEEN AND SHE HAS MAUREEN NELSON AND CLAIRE GATES WITH HER. IF WE COULD GET THAT GROUP TO STAND. ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THAT. [Applause] THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING AND WE HOPE YOU ENJOY YOUR TIME HERE AT CITY HALL. >> WELCOME TO CITY HALL. ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU. AND I'M NOT SURE IF IT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR OUR MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND FOR MEMBERS OF COUNCIL TO GET AN OPINION FROM THE ADMINISTRATION ON THE LEGALITIES OF MOVING FORWARD, WHAT OUR CHOICES WOULD BE. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT CERTAINLY COULD COME AFTER THE PUBLIC HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK. BUT I'M ASSUMING THAT WE'LL WANT THAT INFORMATION. I'VE MET WITH THEM, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF ALL MEMBERS OF COUNCIL UNDERSTAND THE OPTIONS IN GOING FORWARD. >> ARE YOU DIRECTING THAT? >> NO, I'M JUST SUGGESTING THAT IF MEMBERS OF COUNCIL WANT TO DO THAT. THAT WOULD BE A LIKELY OUTCOME ANYWAY. >> ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> JUST SOME QUESTIONS FOR CLARIFICATION FROM ADMINISTRATION WITH REGARDS TO COSTS INVOLVED. >> YOU DON'T NEED TO STAND. WE'RE IN COMMITTEE. >> SALUSKI? [Inaudible] >> IS YOUR MICROPHONE ON? >> HOW'S THAT? >> THERE WE GO. >> SORRY. SORRY ABOUT THAT. >> MUCH BETTER. >> OKAY. CURRENTLY OUR OPERATING COSTS ARE ABOUT $750.000. OF THAT 750.000, IT'S ABOUT IN THE RANGE OF 600 TO 625 FOR THE ACTUAL CHEMICAL ITSELF. THE REMAINDER OF THE COSTS ARE OPERATING COSTS, AND ADMINISTERING THE FLUORIDE AT OUR TWO TREATMENT PLANTS. CURRENTLY, WE ALSO HAVE AN ENGINEERING CONSULTANT, WHICH IS DOING AN ASSESSMENT OF OUR FACILITIES AT BOTH PLANTS TO SEE WHERE WE ARE IN THEIR LIFE CYCLE AND WHAT UPGRADE IS NECESSARY TO BE DONE TO THE EQUIPMENT AT THE PLANTS. AND WE'RE HOPING THAT ASSESSMENT WILL BE DONE PROBABLY IN THE FIRST QUARTER OF THIS YEAR. >> OKAY. I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT NEEDING TO UPGRADE THESE FACILITIES AND WE DON'T HAVE AN ESTIMATE AS TO WHAT THOSE COSTS MAY WELL BE YET? >> WE HAVE A ROUGH IDEA RIGHT NOW. WE WILL BE RELYING ON OUR CONSULTANT TO COME BACK WITH A MORE ACCURATE COST ESTIMATE. CURRENTLY WE'RE ESTIMATING IT COULD BE IN THE ORDER OF 3 TO $4 MILLION FOR THE TWO PLANTS. >> IS THERE A PRIORITY IN HAVING THESE DONE? LIKE, WHAT IS THE TIME FRAME THAT WE MAY OR MAY NOT NEED TO DO WITH THIS -- WITH THESE UPGRADES? >> THAT'S ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT WILL BE COMING THROUGH THE CONSULTANT'S REPORT AS TO THE TIMING OF THE UPGRADE, AND THAT'S BASED ON HIS CONDITION ASSESSMENT OF WHAT'S REQUIRED TO BE UPGRADED. THESE WERE INSTALLED A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO AND HAVE THERE BEEN ANY INSTALLATIONS AT OTHER EXTREME PLANTS. >> IN THE SAME WAY YOU GAVE US A ROUGH ESTIMATE OF WHAT THE COSTS ARE EXPECTING TO BE, IS THERE ANY WAY YOU CAN GIVE US A ROUGH ESTIMATE AS TO A TIME FRAME REQUIRED OR WHERE THESE REPAIRS MAY BE REQUIRED TO BE DONE? WHEN, RATHER? >> NOT RIGHT AT THIS TIME. I'D BE ESTIMATING WE'D PROBABLY BE LOOKING AT SOMETHING NEXT YEAR OR IN A TIME FRAME SHORTLY THEREAFTER. PROBABLY IN THE 2012-14 BUSINESS CYCLE. >> THANK YOU. NO MORE QUESTIONS. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> JUST FOLLOWING UP ON ALDERMAN DEMONG'S QUESTIONS, ARE THERE RESERVE FUNDS IN PLACE TO COVER THOSE COSTS, OR WHERE WOULD THE COSTS OF THE UPGRADE COME FROM? >> THE COSTS WOULD BE COVERED THROUGH OUR CURRENT CAPITAL PROGRAM. SO WE DO HAVE SUFFICIENT FUNDS IN OUR CAPITAL PROGRAM TO COVER THAT. >> SO THESE ARE ANTICIPATED COSTS? >> I BEG YOUR PARDON? >> THESE ARE ANTICIPATED COSTS. >> THESE ARE ANTICIPATED COSTS RIGHT NOW. AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, OUR CONSULTANT WILL BE COMING BACK WITH A MORE ACCURATE ESTIMATE, AND THEN WE WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT WHERE IT FALLS WITH THE PRIORITIES OF OTHER CAPITAL INITIATIVES THAT WE HAVE. >> I GUESS MY QUESTION WAS MORE IN RELATION TO -- I'M NOT SURE HOW LONG WE'VE HAD THE EQUIPMENT BUT WE ANTICIPATED THIS EQUIPMENT WOULD EVENTUALLY NEED TO BE REPLACED OR ENHANCED SO THERE'S RESERVE FUNDS FOR THAT AND THAT'S BUILT IN THE BUDGET AND THE CAPITAL COST. >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, YOU'RE FREE TO STEP DOWN. YOU CAN STAY IF YOU WANT. [Inaudible] >> NO, YOU CAN'T ASK QUESTIONS FROM THERE. WE'LL CALL PEOPLE UP. FIRST ON MY LIST IS DAN MEADS. >> IT'S ON NOW. IT'S ON. >> HELLO? IS THAT BETTER? HI THERE, MY NAME IS DAN MEADS, I'M THE DIRECTOR OF VIBRANT COMMUNITIES CALGARY. IT'S A NONPROFIT THAT WORKS ACROSS SECTORS TO TRY TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF POVERTY IN OUR COMMUNITY. I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT FLUORIDE. I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT WHAT'S GOOD OR BAD FOR MY TEETH, AND I KNOW IF I STAYED FOR THE DAY, I WOULD BE MO CONFUSED AFTERWARDS THAN I AM NOW KNOWING NOTHING AT THE BEGINNING. AND SO IT'S NOT MY PLACE TO RECOMMEND WHETHER FLUORIDE IS A GOOD IDEA OR A BAD IDEA IN DRINKING WATER FROM A MEDICAL POINT OF VIEW. I TEND TO TRUST DOCTORS AS MUCH AS I CAN. AND IF WE COULD GET THEM TO AGREE, I'D ADVISE THAT. WHAT I DO KNOW, THOUGH, IS ABOUT POVERTY IN OUR CITY. IT MIGHT BE THE ONLY THING I KNOW ABOUT. AND IT'S BECAUSE I SPEND MY TIME TALKING TO PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN POVERTY IN CALGARY AND ASKING THEM WHAT THEY NEED. ASKING THEM WHAT OUR CITY CAN DO TO MAKE OUR COMMUNITIES STRONGER, TO MAKE THEIR LIVES EASIER, TO EASE THE PRESSURES ON THEIR FAMILIES. AND YOU KNOW THE ANSWER I'VE NEVER HEARD? GOSH, THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT FLUORIDE. THE ANSWER I'VE NEVER HEARD IS, I'M SO GLAD WE HAVE FLUORIDE IN OUR DRINKING WATER. AND SO IF IT IS TRULY AN ISSUE OF HEALTH, AND WE CAN GET THE DOCTORS AND THE DENTISTS IN THE ROOM TO SUGGEST THAT FLUORIDE IS ABSOLUTELY THE BEST WAY TO PREVENT -- OR TO MAINTAIN DENTAL AND ORAL HEALTH FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. I KNOW THAT THEY CAN'T SAY THAT. AND THE REASON I KNOW THAT IS BECAUSE EVEN WITH FLUORIDE IN THE WATER, THEY TELL US ALL TO GO TO THE DENTIST. AND SO IF FLUORIDE WAS DOING THIS PREVENTIVE HEALTH WORK, I WOULDN'T NEED TO GO TO THE DENTIST. AND I ASSURE YOU IF THERE'S ONE PERSON IN THIS ROOM THAT WOULD GET OUT OF GOING TO THE DENTIST IF WE COULD, IT'S ME. HERE'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY IF WE WANT TO CARE FOR THE ORAL HEALTH OF LOW INCOME CALGARIANS, LET'S DO THAT. I MEAN, LET'S REALLY DO THAT. AND MYSELF AND THE OTHER MEMBERS OF VIBRANT COMMUNITIES CALGARY WOULD BE HAPPY, EAGER TO HELP DO THAT. WHEN WE LOOK AT THREE-QUARTERS OF A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR AND THREE OR FOUR MILLION DOLLARS TO UPGRADE FACILITIES, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE SOME AMAZING USES FOR THAT MONEY. WE COULD CHANGE THE NATURE OF THIS CITY FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY WITH THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY. WE COULD FUNDAMENTALLY IMPROVE PEOPLE'S LIVES WITH THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY. AND I'M NOT CERTAIN THAT FLUORIDE IS DOING THAT AS IT IS TODAY. AND SO THE MOTION BEFORE US IS AN INTERESTING ONE. THE AMENDMENT, THE SECOND BIT OF THAT MOTION FROM ALDERMAN FARRELL AND HER COLLEAGUES IS THE BIT I'D LIKE TO SPEAK TO. AND THAT'S THAT IF WE REALLY DO THINK THAT THIS -- IT'S THE WILL OF THIS COUNCIL TO LOOK AFTER THE ORAL HEALTH OF PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY, THERE ARE MANY, MANY WAYS TO DO THAT. AND SOME OF THOSE WAYS DON'T INVOLVE FLUSHING MONEY OR ANYTHING ELSE DOWN TOILETS. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. IF I'M TO SUMMARIZE THE ASPECT OF WHAT YOU SAID, IT MAY BE MORE DIRECTLY BENEFICIAL IF WE ACTUALLY HAD A PROGRAM THAT SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED FUNDS TO THOSE THAT NEED THE FLUORIDE IN DENTAL OR HYGIENE THROUGH OTHER METHODS RATHER THAN WATER? >> SURE. AND THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION, ALDERMAN, IT'S A GOOD ONE. I'M NOT CERTAIN IF FLUORIDE IS THE BEST WAY TO PROVIDE DENTAL CARE TO PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY. I WOULD BE REMISS TO TRY TO COMMENT ON THE MEDICAL ASPECTS OF THAT QUESTION. HAWHAT I DO KNOW IS IF FLUORIDE IN DRINKING WATER WAS DOING THE JOB, NONE OF US WOULD NEED TO GO TO THE DENTIST. AND THAT IF WE REALLY WANT TO CARE FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY, ON THE LIST OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY TELL US ARE VERY, VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO THEM, FLUORIDE'S NOT ON THAT LIST. AND SO I THINK IF ORAL HEALTH FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY IS SOMETHING THIS COUNCIL WANTS TO DO, LET'S DO THAT. BUT LET'S DO THAT IN THE HIGHEST AND BEST USE OF OUR TIME AND MONEY. I'M NOT SAYING I KNOW WHAT THAT ANSWER IS, BUT I'D BE HAPPY TO WORK THROUGH THE PROCESS OF EXPLORING IT WITH THIS COUNCIL. >> ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY Mr. MEADS AND THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR WORK ON POVERTY ISSUES. THAT'S OFTEN THE REASON THAT WE -- THE PROPONENTS OF FLUORIDE, THE REASON BEHIND THEIR SUPPORT OF THE SUBSTANCE IS IT HELPS PEOPLE IN POVERTY SITUATIONS. SPECIFICALLY CHILDREN. AND THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING FORWARD THE AMENDMENT ALONG WITH Mr. KEATING. ALDERMAN KEATING. BUT WHAT -- I DON'T PROPOSE TO KNOW WHAT THE BEST USE OF THAT FUND WOULD BE. AND WHO WOULD SIT AT THE TABLE? I TALK ABOUT ESTABLISHING A COMMITTEE. WHO WOULD BE THE BEST -- I MEAN, IT'S ABOUT DENTAL HEALTH. IT'S ABOUT NUTRITION, HYGIENE, ALL THOSE THINGS. SO HOW WOULD YOU SEE US GOING FORWARD IF THE MOTION PASSES TODAY AS I'VE PRESENTED IT? >> CERTAINLY. THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION. WHEN WE THINK ABOUT POVERTY, THE FIRST WORD THAT NEEDS TO COME TO OUR MIND IS "COMPLEXITY." IF THAT'S NOT THE FIRST WORD WE THINK OF WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOW WE ADDRESS POVERTY IN CALGARY, WE'RE GOING TO GET IT WRONG EVERY TIME. AND SO HOW DO I SUGGEST THAT WE THINK THROUGH PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY AND HELPING THEIR LIVES? I THINK WE DO SO BY HONOURING THE COMPLEXITY OF THE SITUATION AND RECOGNIZING THAT HEALTH CARE IS A MAJOR PIECE OF THAT PUZZLE. BUT SO IS EDUCATION. SO IS TRANSIT. AND SO IS INCOME. AND IF WE JUST SPEND OUR TIME THINKING ABOUT ONE OF THEM, AND NOT THE REST OF THEM, WE'RE GOING TO GET IT WRONG EVERY TIME BECAUSE WE'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT THE COMPLEXITY. AND SO DO I THINK THERE'S ROOM FOR THIS CONVERSATION IN A BROADER MUNICIPAL POVERTY REDUCTION STRATEGY OR POVERTY PLAN? ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE MUNICIPALITY HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT AS DOES THE PROVINCE AS DOES THE COUNTRY. AND SO I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A PIECE OF THIS CONVERSATION THAT CAN START HERE. AND I THINK THIS BIT OF MONEY THAT MAY BE SAVED BY A DECISION THAT'S MADE HERE IS A WONDERFUL BIT OF MONEY TO START THAT PROCESS. OF THINKING THROUGH WHAT IT MEANS TO BE POOR IN CALGARY AND WHAT IT MEANS TO HELP PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY IN CALGARY. >> THANK YOU. SO YOU'RE WILLING TO WORK WITH US ON THAT. >> OH, MY GOODNESS, OF COURSE. EAGER TO, NOT JUST WILLING. >> THAT'S VERY CLEAR. THANK YOU. >> AL MacLEOD. ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION, I APPRECIATE IT. SO IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY, PART OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT THE MONEY COULD BE REDIRECTED AND PERHAPS BETTER SPENT ON DENTAL CARE FOR LOW-INCOME FAMILIES. IS THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, CERTAINLY. >> SO DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OR A VISION OF HOW -- WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE? ARE YOU THINKING DENTAL PROGRAMS? FREE DENTAL CLINICS? HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO -- >> CERTAINLY. THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION, ALDERMAN. I'M AS YOU KNOW A FAIRLY SIMPLE GUY AND I TRY TO MAKE ANSWERS AS SIMPLE AS I CAN. AND SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOW WE CAN PROVIDE DENTAL CARE TO PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE BRING THEM TO THE DENTIST. I MEAN, IT'S REALLY THAT SIMPLE. AND SO WE HAVE FREE DENTAL CLINICS IN LOW INCOME NEIGHBOURHOODS IN CALGARY AND WE MAKE SURE THAT EVERY CLIENT OF THE DROP-IN CENTRE AND THE SALVATION ARMY CENTRE OF HOPE AND THE MUSTARD SEED, EVERY CLIENT OF CALGARY HOUSING HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO THE DENTIST. BUT NOT JUST THE DENTIST. TO THE DOCTOR. AND TO SCHOOL. AND IDEALLY TO A PLACE WHERE THEY CAN WORK FOR A CIVILIZED LIVING. AND SO WHEN WE THINK DIRECTLY JUST ABOUT DENTAL CARE, YES, THE ANSWER IS FREE DENTAL CARE TO PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY. NO QUESTION. IF THERE WAS A REPLACEMENT FOR FREE DENTAL CARE, WE WOULDN'T HAVE AS MANY DENTISTS IN THE ROOM AS WE HAVE BECAUSE THEY'D ALL BE OUT OF BUSINESS. AND YOU THINK A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR OR WHATEVER THE COST WOULD COVER -- >> OH, I'D BE REMISS TO NOT RECOGNIZE THE COMPLEXITY OF THAT PROBLEM. I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH A MILLION DOLLARS IS GOING TO COVER IN DENTAL CARE. I HAVE NO IDEA. I DO KNOW IT WOULD BE A WONDERFUL PLACE TO START. >> OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, Mr. MEADS. >> THANK YOU ALL. >> OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS GARY JOHNSON. >> GOOD MORNING. I'LL START OFF WITH CONGRATULATIONS TO THE COUNCILLOR, THE MAYOR AND OUR NEW PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING OUR CITY HERE. I RAN FOR THE MAYOR'S JOB LAST TIME, AND I APPRECIATE WHO WE HAVE IN PLACE, AND I'D LIKE TO THANK THE AUDIENCE FOR BEING HERE ALSO. SHOWS INTEREST. AND I'M GOING TO START OFF WITH SAYING TO YOU PEOPLE DID I MY OWN SURVEY. I CALLED FOUR CITIES IN THIS FINE CANADA OF OURS -- >> CAN I INTERRUPT YOU JUST FOR ONE SECOND. EVEN THOUGH I'VE SAID YOUR NAME, YOU HAVE TO -- >> I CAN'T HEAR JE. >> COULD YOU PLACE STATE WHO YOU ARE? >> MY NAME'S GARY JOHNSON. AND I PHONED FOUR CITIES. ONE OF THE FOUR, I DIDN'T GET ALL BECAUSE IT TAKES TIME, ONE OUT OF FOUR, VANCOUVER, DOES NOT USE FLUORIDE BECAUSE WE HAVE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF WATER, FOLKS. I PHONED THE DENTIST ASSOCIATION OF TORONTO. THEY TOLD ME THEY'RE IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDE BECAUSE IT PREVENTS CAVITIES AND ALL THE SUGARS OUR CHILDREN ARE GETTING FROM PARENTS NOT GUARDING WHAT THEY'RE EATING. WHICH YOU CAN'T DO ALL THE TIME. HAVE I GRANDCHILDREN, I'M PROUD OF THEM. IF THEY COME TO LIVE IN THIS CITY, I WANT EVERYTHING TO GIVE THEM GOOD HEALTH. LIKE YOU ALL DO. MY CHILDREN ARE MY PRIDE. AND I FEEL Mrs. FARRELL HAS STEPPED OUT OF HER BOUNDS BECAUSE SHE IS NOT QUALIFIED TO HAVE -- I DON'T THINK SHE HAS A HEALTH CERTIFICATE, HAS A DENTIST BACKGROUND, HAS NOTHING -- >> WE DON'T TAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS. >> VERY APOLOGETIC. BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE, AND WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT SOON. OKAY? IT'S IMPORTANT TO EVERYBODY. IF IT'S GOT TO GO TO A REFERENDUM, SO BE IT. THIS IS PEOPLE'S HEALTH WE'RE DEALING WITH. I'VE BEEN ON FLUORIDE ALL MY LIFE. MY TEETH ARE EXCEPTIONALLY WELL. I'M 64 YEARS OLD. THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING, THEY SAY. IF ONE ROTTEN APPLE SPOILS THE BARREL, LET'S GET THE ROTTEN APPLE OUT OF THERE. BUT I'M IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDE. FOR MY GENERATIONS TO COME BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT IS A PREVENTIVE WAY TO SAVE PEOPLE'S TEETH WHICH -- WE DON'T HAVE TEETH, WE'RE ALL IN TROUBLE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> SEE NOTHING QUESTIONS, THANK YOU, Mr. JOHNSON. OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS -- I BELIEVE IT'S PATRICIA BROWNLY. >> DO YOU WANT ANY COPIES OF THIS FOR FILING? >> SURE. MADAME CLERK? >> THANK YOU. I'M ALREADY ON TIME HERE. MY NAME IS PATRICIA BROWNLY AND I WISH TO PRESENT TO THE COMMITTEE MY PERSONAL OPINION ON THE ISSUE OF FLUORIDATION OF PUBLIC DRINKING WATER. I'M ORIGINALLY FROM ONTARIO, AND ONE OF THE COMMUNITIES OF BRANTFORD WAS PART OF THE ORIGINAL TESTING BACK IN 1945. CITY COUNCIL IN TORONTO HAS PROVED ANOTHER ADDITION IN '55. VIGOROUS PROTESTS DELAYED THE ACTUAL IMPLEMENTATION FOR SEVERAL YEARS. A STRONG OPPONENT TO FLUORIDATION WAS A RADIO AND PERSONALITY NAMED GORDIAN SINCLAIR -- GORDON SINCLAIR. MAYBE YOU'RE ALL TO REMEMBER HIM. I DOUBT IT. HE OBJECTED TO BEING FORCED TO TAKE MEDICATION HE DIDN'T WANT, AND OFFERED HIM NO BENEFIT. Mr. SINCLAIR VIEWED THIS ISSUE AS ONE OF GOVERNMENT INFRINGING ON HIS BASIC RIGHTS AS A CITIZEN. I TOO TAKE THAT POSITION. THE ISSUE BECAME ENTANGLED IN YEARS OF LEGAL WRANGLING. UNTIL THE CITY FINALLY ORDERED THAT A PLEBISCITE BE HELD IN 1962. THE FINAL RESULT WAS A PAPER-THIN VICTORY OF FLUORIDATION OF 50.1% IN FAVOUR AND 49.9% OPPOSED. AND HERE WE ARE 50 YEARS LATER WITH PUBLIC OPPOSITION TO THIS PROCEDURE IN CALGARY. WHERE FLUORIDATION HAS BEEN DISCONTINUED IN COMMUNITIES FROM CANADA, THE FORMER EAST GERMANY, CUBA AND FINLAND, DENTAL DECAY HAS NOT INCREASED BUT ACTUALLY DECREASED. I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT HAPPENS. THERE'S SOME REFERENCE IN MY MATERIAL THERE. THE CENTRES FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION FROM 1999 TO '01 HAS NOW ACKNOWLEDGED THE FINDINGS OF MANY LEADING DENTAL RESEARCH. THE MECHANISM OF FLUORIDE'S BENEFITS ARE MAINLY TOPICAL AND SYSTEMIC, THUS WE DON'T HAVE TO SWALLOW FLUORIDE TO PROTECT TEETH. AND A PIECE OF HISTORY WHICH REALLY DISTURBS ME IS THAT DESPITE BEING PRESCRIBED BY DOCTORS FOR OVER 50 YEARS, U.S. FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION HAS NEVER APPROVED ANY FLUORIDE PRODUCT DESIGNED FOR INGESTION AS SAFE OR EFFECTIVE. RECENTLY, AS I HAVE LOOKED AROUND ON TOOTHPASTE WARNINGS, I HAVE FOUND ONES THAT STATE FOR CHILDREN UNDER 6 YEARS, KEEP ONLY. SOME ARE FOR ONLY UNDER 12. AND DEFINITE WARNING, IF MORE THAN USED BY BRUSHING, WHICH IS A SMALL PEA-SIZED AMOUNT RECOMMENDED FOR CHILDREN, HAS BEEN SWALLOWED, TO GET MEDICAL HELP OR CONTACT POISON CONTROL CENTRE IMMEDIATELY. THATHAT KIND OF MAKES ME WONDER WHERE WE'RE AT. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT DECLARATION GIVES THEM SOME PROTECTION AGAINST LEGAL LIABILITY. FLUORIDE IS A CUMULATIVE POISON. ON AVERAGE ONLY 50% OF FLUORIDE WE INGEST EACH DAY IS EXCRETED. THE REMAINDER IS IN OUR BONES, PINNIAL DAMAGE AND KIDNEYS. THERE WAS ISSUES ABOUT THE PLUROSIS WHICH I FIRST BECAME AWARE OF BACK IN EARLY 1960s. MY CHILDREN HAD IT, TOOK THEM TO DENTISTS AND DOCTORS, THERE WAS NO ANSWER OTHER THAN IT WAS A TRAUMA AND THE TEETH WOULD FALL OUT ANYWAY SO DON'T WORRY. I'VE SINCE LEARNED THAT THERE'S MUCH MORE TO IT THAN THAT. MY CURRENT ISSUE THAT CONCERNS ME IS ABOUT SKELETAL FLUORISIS. IT WAS A FLUORIDE INDUCED BONE AND JOINT DISEASE THAT IMPACTS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN INDIA, CHINA AND AFRICA. I WOULD IMAGINE IT'S HERE AS WELL. IT MILLICS THE SYMPTOMS OF -- MILLICS THE SYMPTOMS OF ARTHRITIS. ACCORDING TO A REVIEW ON FLUORIDATION BY CHEMICAL AND ENGINEERING NEWS, BECAUSE SOME OF THE CLINICAL SYMPTOMS MIMIC ARTHRITIS, THE FIRST TWO CLINICAL PHASES OF SKELETAL FLUORISIS COULD BE EASILY MISDIAGNOSED. THAT'S MY CONCERN. ONE IN THREE AMERICANS NOW HAVE SOME FORM OF ARTHRITIS. IT COULD BE RELATED TO THE GROWING FLUORIDE EXPOSURE WHICH IS PLAUSIBLE. THE CAUSE OF MOST FORMS OF ARTHRITIS IS UNKNOWN, EXAMPLE IS THE OSTEOARTHRITIS. IN SUMMATION I WOULD LIKE YOU TO CONSIDER THAT AS WE LIVE AND LEARN AND GROW AS AN INDIVIDUAL OR A COUNCIL OR SOCIETY, WE CAN ADMIT OUR MISTAKES. I ACCEPT THAT FLUORIDE TOPICAL APPLICATION IS BENEFICIAL FOR TEETH. HOWEVER, THIS SEEMS TO BE TOO MANY POSSIBLE HEALTH SIDE EFFECTS TO CONTINUE PUTTING FLUORIDATION IN OUR DRINKING WATER. WHEN WE KNOW MORE, WE CAN MAKE WISE, INFORMED DECISIONS AND I'M SURE YOU'LL LEARN A LOT TODAY AND PERHAPS TOMORROW. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION. [Applause] NOT SUPPOSED TO APPLAUD. >> TO THE AUDIENCE, WE DON'T ALLOW OUTBURSTS LIKE THAT OR WE HAVE TO CLEAR THE ROOM. DON'T DO IT AGAIN. ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> THANK YOU. AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING DOWN TODAY. I APPRECIATE THAT. AND I APPRECIATE THE TIME YOU TOOK TO INFORM ME AS WELL. WE HAD A ONE-ON-ONE MEETING. JUST A QUICK QUESTION. THE INFORMATION THAT YOU PRESENTED TODAY WAS BASED ON THE READING THAT YOU'VE DONE OR -- >> MANY, MANY YEARS OF RESEARCH. IT'S SO MUCH EASIER NOW WITH INTERNET. >> BUT YOUR BACKGROUND IS -- LIKE, YOU'RE NOT A DENTIST OR HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. >> NO. JUST VERY INTERESTED CONSUMER OF MEDICAL ATTENTION. >> I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR QUITE SOME TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING DOWN TODAY. APPRECIATE IT. >> THANK YOU, MISS BROWNLY. OUR NEXT SPEAKER I BELIEVE IT'S JOHN CHEN? >> GOOD MORNING, COUNCILLORS. MY NAME IS JOHN CHEN. I AM AN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION OFFICER, ALTHOUGH I'M HERE AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN. THE BRIEF I'M BRING TO PRESENT HERE COMES FROM MY OWN PERSONAL RESEARCH AND IT DOES NOT REPRESENT MY OFFICIAL CAPACITY AT ALL. THE FIRST THING I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT IS THAT FLUORIDE IS AN INDUSTRIAL... [Indiscernible] PRODUCT FROM THE ALUMINUM INDUSTRY. FLUORIDE IS ALSO KNOWN TO BE ONE OF THE MOST ACTIVE ELEMENTS KNOWN TO MAN. AND TOXIC LIKE MERCURY. IN THE LAST TWO DEBATES IN THE CITY OF CALGARY ABOUT FLUORIDATION, I HAVE TO POINT OUT, WITHOUT BEING TOO INCHARITABLE, THE OFFICIAL OF THE CALGARY HEALTH HAVE FAILED TO KEEP UP ON THE LATEST LITERATURE AND RESEARCH ON THE UNACCEPTABLE HEALTH RISKS CAUSED BY ANOTHER ADDITIONS OF POTABLE WATER. AND ALSO HAVE DISSEMINATE MISLEADING INFORMATION DURING THIS FLUORIDE DEBATE -- THE PAST FLUORIDE DEBATE. THIS LACK OF DUE DILIGENCE AND SUBSEQUENT MISINFORMATION CONSTITUTE OFFICIAL-INDUCED ERROR. AND IS FLIRTING WITH MEDICAL MALPRACTICE. THE LATEST STUDY HAVE CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED THAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS UNSAFE FOR INGESTION. THAT MEANS BY SWALLOWING. WHILE FLUORIDE AS DENTAL TREATMENT, TOPICALLY, HAVE SOME LIMITED EFFECTIVENESS. ONLY WHEN IT'S ONLY APPLIED TO THE TEETH. SO WHY ARE WE SWALLOWING IT? WHY ARE WE INGESTING IT? BECAUSE THE CITY IS IMPOSING MASS MEDICATION ON FLUORIDE ON THE DRINKING WATER. WHERE MOST PEOPLE JUST SIMPLY CANNOT AFFORD BOTTLED WATER ON THE DAILY USE. FLUORIDE, THE PROPONENTS OF FLUORIDE INCLUDING Dr. HAROLD... [Indiscernible] AND Dr. COX, THOSE ARE THE FIRST PROPONENTS AND LEADING DEFENDANTS FOR FLUORIDE -- CLAIMING FLUORIDATION IS SAFE. THOSE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WAS INVOLVED IN INJECTING JOURNAL WITTING PATIENTS WITH PLUTONIUM WITH Dr. HODGE WAS INVOLVED WITH THIS HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENT. THESE ARE ALSO THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WORK WITH THE MULLIN INSTITUTE THAT WAS HIRED BY THE ALUMINUM INDUSTRY. BUT BEFORE IT WAS FOUND SUBSEQUENTLY TO BE PROFOUNDLY TOXIC TO HUMAN, Dr. PHYLLIS... [Indiscernible] IS A PHARMCOLOGIST AND A TOXICOLOGIST BY TRAIN, AND IN THE 1980s THE DOCTOR WAS HEAD OF THE TOXICOLOGY DEPARTMENT OF THE... [Indiscernible] DENTAL CENTRE, A WORLD RENOWNED RESEARCH INSTITUTION AFFILIATED WITH THE HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL. SHE WAS INVITED TO START THE... [Indiscernible] TECHNOLOGY DEPARTMENT BECAUSE OF HER EXPERTISE. SHE IS PRESENTLY IN THE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL MEDICAL CENTRE IN BOSTON. THE DOCTOR, ACADEMIC APPOINTMENT, PROFESSIONAL PHYSICIAN HEALTH, TEACHING EXPERIENCE, AWARD HONOUR AND MANY SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH ARTICLE TO HER NAME ARE NUMEROUS, AND THOSE ARE ALL READABLE FOR US TO LOOK AT. THE TESTS BY THE DOCTOR WAS ASKED TO PERFORM AT THE FORSYTHE DENTAL CENTRE WAS RELATED TO THE... [Indiscernible] OF FLUORIDE. AND BY DOING RESEARCH ON HEALTH IMPACT ON FLUORIDE IN HUMANS, WHEN SHE COMPLETED HER REPORT SHE WAS PROMPTLY FIRED WHEN SHE REFUSED TO CANCEL HER PUBLICATION OF HER REPORT THAT FOUND NEUROTOXICITY OF FLUORIDE THAT CAN CAUSE SERIOUS NEUROLOGICAL DAMAGE AMONG MANY OTHER HEALTH ISSUES. WHILE WE WILL SEE THAT ON THE OTHER SIDE THEY HAVE CLAIMED THAT FLUORIDE IS SAFE, IF WE TRACE BACK TO THE SOURCE, FLUORIDE IS INDUSTRIAL WASTE PRODUCED FROM THE ALUMINUM INDUSTRY. ANOTHER PERSON CONDUCT EARLY SCIENTIFIC SITES ON FLUORIDATION IS GERALD COX -- >> Mr. CHEN? HAVE YOU GOT A CONCLUDING STATEMENT? YOUR FIVE MINUTES IS UP. >> ALL RIGHT. THEN LET ME SKIP TO CONCLUSION THEN, Mr. JONES. BASICALLY WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS MASS MEDICATION WITHOUT CONSENT, AND BY ANY... (AUDIO DIFFICULTIES) I'M SORRY. AND AS FAR AS THE CONCERN ABOUT LOW INCOME CHILDREN THAT HAVE TO HAVE DENTAL CARE AND THEREFORE FLUORIDATION, THE ARGUMENT IS JUST NOT THERE. WE HAVE PLENTY OF FLUORIDE AND MANY DIFFERENT SOURCES. TOOTHPASTE ITSELF HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH FLUORIDE CONTACT AS RECOMMENDED BY DENTISTS. SO THIS MASSIVE EXPENDITURE IS NOT ONLY UNNECESSARY, BUT IS UNSAFE AND IT'S EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. AND IF WE WANT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF LOW INCOME CHILDREN, THE FRACTION OF WHAT WE SPEND ON FLUORIDATION COULD EASILY ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES BY JUST IMPROVING THE NUTRIENT OF THE CHILDREN, AND BY IMPROVING NUTRIENT THE IMPROVEMENT OF HEALTH -- DENTAL HEALTH ARE JUST AS GOOD AS USING FLUORIDE. SO IN CONCLUSION, I STRONGLY URGE ALL THE COUNCILLORS TO MAKE JUDICIOUS DECISIONS WHEN YOU COME TO VOTE ON THIS MOTION TO DISCONTINUE FLUORIDATION OF OUR POTABLE WATER. SO THANK YOU. >> I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU. ALDERMAN MacLEOD? >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR THAT PRESENTATION. IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY, YOU HAVE A BACKGROUND IN SCIENCE? >> I DO. >> AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT FLUORIDE IS UNSAFE TO INGEST. AT WHAT LEVELS IS IT UNSAFE? >> THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT IMPROVEMENT IS CONCLUSIVELY BY ANY SCIENCE STUDY TO SHOW THAT IT'S SAFE. WHAT IT SHOWS IS THE LOW DOSE THAT WE COMMONLY APPLY THROUGHOUT MUNICIPALITY IN NORTH AMERICA IS SHOWN THAT IT CAN CAUSE HEALTH ISSUE. BUT THERE IS NO SCIENCE OUT THERE TO PROVE THAT LOW DOSAGE AT A PROLONGED EXPOSURE IS SAFE. >> SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT WE SHOULD TAKE THE NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER AS WELL? >> I'M NOT AWARE THE NATURAL FLUORIDE CONTENT IN THE WATER. WHAWHAT I AM SAY IS THIS THE SCIENCE IN THE PAST THAT CLAIM AND DEFENDED THE FLUORIDATION IS SAFE, IF CORPORATE SCIENCE, IF TOBACCO SCIENCE, IF ASBESTOS SCIENCE, THEY ARE FRAUDULENT SCIENCE, THEY'VE BEEN ROUNDLY PROVEN BY PEER REVIEW, AND ALL THIS INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE AT THE SITE AND I HAVE SENT THAT INFORMATION TO ALL ALDERMENS BY E-MAIL. SO YOU CAN EASILY USE THAT AS A REFERENCE. >> OKAY, I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION. SHOULD WE BE TAKING NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER? >> I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO SAY THAT. I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT NATURAL FLUORIDE. BUT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT A CHEMICAL FLUORIDE THAT IS ACTUALLY INDUSTRIAL WASTE PRODUCT THAT IS CURRENTLY INTRODUCED TO OUR POTABLE WATER. BUT I'M NOT HERE TO ARGUE ABOUT NATURAL FLUORIDE, AND I DON'T BELIEVE THE NATURAL FLUORIDE CONTENT IS ACTUALLY OF ANY CONCERN. >> SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THEN IS THAT THE NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE IS DIFFERENT THAN THE FLUORIDE THAT'S BEING ADDED? >> NO, I DID NOT SAY THAT. I'M SAYING HAVE I NO CONCERN ABOUT IT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE NATURAL CONTENT LEVEL OF FLUORIDE. BUT I DO KNOW ABOUT THE CHEMICAL FLUORIDE THAT HIS CURRENTLY BEING INTRODUCED IN THE WATER. >> I GUESS I'M STILL CONFUSED ABOUT THAT. YOU MADE SOME VERY STRONG STATEMENTS ABOUT THE PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICERS ARE MISLEADING THE PUBLIC WITH INFORMATION AND INTENTIONALLY DOING SO. CAN YOU CLARIFY THAT, PLEASE? >> WELL, THEY HAVEN'T USED THE LATEST RESEARCH, SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, MATERIAL THAT'S AVAILABLE. THERE IS AMPLE BODY OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION AVAILABLE, INCLUDING THOSE THAT CAN BE SENT BY Dr. JIM BECK WHO IS IN THE AUDIENCE HERE TODAY. >> SO IT'S YOUR OPINION THAT THERE'S NOT A DIVERSITY OF OPINION ON THE RESEARCH, IT'S THAT THEY'RE INTENTIONALLY IGNORING CURRENT RESEARCH. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? >> I'M SAYING THEY HAVE NOT KEPT UP WITH THE MOST RECENT SCIENTIFIC STUDY. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, Mr. CHEN. >> THANK YOU. >> I BELIEVE OUR NEXT SPEAKER... [Applause] LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THIS WILL BE THE SECOND TIME I'LL WARN YOU, YOU CANNOT APPLAUD IN HERE. SORRY. I'M GOING TO APOLOGIZE FOR SOMEBODY IF I CAN PRONOUNCE YOUR NAMES OR NOT BECAUSE YOUR WRITING IS ABOUT AS BAD AS MINE. ALDERMAN STEVENSON? >> THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. I JUST WOULD LIKE TO RECOGNIZE AND WELCOME SOMEONE THAT WE HAVE IN OUR AUDIENCE HERE TODAY, AND THAT IS HIS WORSHIP PETER BROWN, THE MAYOR OF AIRDRIE. STAND UP, PETER. WELCOME. THANK YOU. WE'RE ALLOWED TO CLAP FOR THAT. >> OUR NEXT SPEAKER I BELIEVE... OKAY, WELL, I THINK IT'S COLLEEN CHAN. >> HI, I'M COLLEEN CRAN, SORRY FOR THE CHICKEN SCRATCH. THIS MORNING IN THE CALGARY HERALD, Dr. BRYCE ADAMSON IS QUOTED AS SAYING CHILDHOOD DECAY IS ONLY INCREASING SINCE I'VE BECOME A DENTIST. IT HASN'T DECREASED. SO DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS THAT WE'VE BEEN SPENDING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ADDING FLUORIDE TO OUR DRINKING WATER THAT IT HAS HAD ZERO EFFECT IN REDUCING TOOTH DECAY IN THIS CITY? WHEN I WAS AT SAIT DOING THE DENTAL ASSISTING PROGRAM, THEY TAUGHT US ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT FLUORIDE EXCEPT THAT TOO MUCH CAUSES DENTAL FLUROSIS. WHEN I GRADUATED NOT ONLY DID I NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FLUORIDE BUT I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT DENTAL FLUROSIS WAS. IN 1989 ALL THAT CHANGED. I FOUND OUT WHAT WAS WRONG WITH MY ADULT SON'S TEETH, PERMANENT DENTAL FLUROSIS FROM TOO MUCH FLUORIDE. TEETH THAT CANNOT BE REPAIRED, ONLY COVERED UP TO HIDE THE DAMAGE. POOR CHILDREN CAN'T AFFORD COSMETIC DENTISTRY. I HAD TO LEARN ABOUT FLUORIDE THE HARD WAY. IF I'D HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE ASPECTS OF FLUORIDE, THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO MY SON. I WILL NEVER FORGIVE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN PROMOTING THE USE OF THIS CHEMICAL, THE VERY PEOPLE WE RELY ON FOR INFORMATION ON GOOD DENTAL HEALTH, ESPECIALLY TO OUR CHILDREN. AFTER MY SON WAS BORN, I IMMEDIATELY STARTED HIM ON VITAMIN DROPS WITH FLUORIDE. WHEN HE WAS OLD ENOUGH I SWITCHED HIM OVER TO FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENTS DISPENSED THROUGH THE PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE. FOR SIX YEARS I ONLY MISSED GIVING HIM FLUORIDE FOR FIVE DACE. THIS INVOLVED WITH FLUORIDE TOOTHPASTE, HIGH LEVELS OF FLUORIDE IN HIS PABLUM AND BABY FORMULA AND OTHER FOOD AND BEVERAGES. HE DRANK MORE WATER IN A DAY THAN MY HUSBAND AND MYSELF COMBINED AND THIS WATER NATURALLY FLOUR DATED AT 3 PARTS PER MILLION, HE NEVER HAD A CHANCE. WHEN I PULLED UP THE WEB SITE THIS WEEK AND DISCOVERED THEY NO LONGER ENDORSE FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENTS FOR CHILDREN BEFORE THEY GET THEIR PERSONAL TEETH, I WAS OUTRAGED. THIS POSITION BY THE CDA IS 25 YEARS TOO LATE FOR MY SON. AND OTHER CHILDREN. THOSE PROMOTING FLUORIDE MADE ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT TO DETERMINE HOW MUCH FLUORIDE WE ARE ALL INGESTING, ESPECIALLY CHILDREN, BECAUSE I THINK THIS WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE. NOW THE CDA IS RECOMMENDING THE AVAILABILITY OF FLUORIDE FROM A VARIETY OF SOURCES MUST BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT BEFORE EMBARKING ON A SPECIFIC COURSE OF FLUORIDE DELIVERY. AGAIN, 25 YEARS TOO LATE FOR MY SON. HOW COULD SUCH A TOXIC CHEMICAL LIKE THE FLUORIDE THEY'RE PUTTING IN OUR DRINKING WATER HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH REDUCING TOOTH DECAY? THIS CHEMICAL IS SLOWLY ACCUMULATING IN ALL OF OUR BODIES. IF YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT FLUORIDE IN OUR DRINKING WATER, DON'T BOTHER WITH THE CITY OF CALGARY WEB SITE. IT PROVIDES MISLEADING INFORMATION AND AVOIDS ALL ASPECTS THAT MAKE WATER FLUORIDATION CONTROVERSIAL. FLUORIDE HAS INVADED ALL ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES FROM TOOTHPASTE TO DENTAL FLOSS, TEETH WHITENING PRODUCTS, MOUTHWASH, DENTAL OFFICE PRODUCTS, ALUMINUM TEFLON COOKWARE, FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENTS, PESTICIDES SPRAYED ON OUR FOOD, GENERAL ANESTHETICS, WATER FLUORIDATION, PHARMACEUTICALS AND MANY OF OUR FOODS AND BEVERAGES BECAUSE THEY DO NOT REMOVE THE FLUORIDE BEFORE PROCESSING. AND THE LIST GOES ON. THE INTERNATIONAL FIGHT AGAINST FLUORIDATION IS GROWING. FROM NEW YORK CITY TO AUSTIN, TEXAS, CORNWALL, ONTARIO AND MANY OTHER COMMUNITIES IN NORTH AMERICA AND THE WORLD, AND WHY MIGHT THAT BE? PEOPLE ARE GETTING EDUCATED ON THIS ISSUE. AND REALIZING THAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS NOT WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE. EDUCATION IS THE REAL ENEMY TO THE SURVIVAL OF WATER FLUORIDATION. HOW MANY PRO-FLUORIDE COUNCIL MEMBERS HAVE SPENT TIME IN THE LAST THREE WEEKS READING UP ON FLUORIDATION. IF THE ANSWER IS ZERO, HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION ON THIS ISSUE? THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DEMOCRATIC ABOUT HOLDING ANOTHER PLEBISCITE ON WATER FLUORIDATION WHEN IT GIVES UNINFORMED PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD CONTINUE DISPOSING THIS TOXIC CHEMICAL INTO OUR DRINKING WATER. IT IS TIME TO STOP PASSING THE BUCK ON THIS ISSUE AND END WATER FLUORIDATION NOW LIKE MANY OTHER COMMUNITIES HAVE DONE. ONE DAY WATER FLUORIDATION WILL BE BANNED AND I HOPE THAT ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE PROMOTION OF THE USE OF THIS CHEMICAL WILL BE HELD LIABLE FOR ALL THE HARM THEY HAVE DONE TO OUR ENVIRONMENT, OUR HEALTH AND OUR TEETH. >> THANK YOU, MISS CRAN. ALDERMAN DEMONG. DO YOU HAVE QUESTIONS? [Inaudible] >> THANKS FOR COMING OUT TODAY. YOU MENTIONED YOU'RE A DENTAL ASSISTANT. >> I WAS. >> HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST TO HAVE THIS FLUROSIS CAPPED OR COVERED. >> I THINK THE DAMAGE TO MY SON'S TEETH IS TOO SEVERE ANDS COULANDCOSMETIC DENTISTRY IS ONN YEARS. SO YOU CAN GET VENEERS PUT ON BUT YOU WILL BE REPLACING THEM EVENTUALLY AND THE COST IS JUDGE HUGE. AND IT IS NOT A SOLUTION. >> YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU -- IF YOU'D KNOWN ABOUT THIS YOU WOULD HAVE TAKEN OTHER METHODS TO AVOID USING THE ANOTHER DATED WATER OR AT LEAST -- FLOUR DATED WATER OR AT THE VERY LEAST STOP USING THE DROPS. IS THERE SOME METHOD YOU WOULD BE SPECIFICALLY USING TO TAKE THE FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN DRINKING? >> I'VE BEEN BUYING BOTTLED WATER SINCE THE WATER BECAME FLUORIDATED. MY DAUGHTER WAS 3 YEARS OLD WHEN I FOUND OUT ABOUT FLUROSIS, SHE'S NOT USED FLUORIDATED WATER. I DO NOT HAVE DENTAL FLUORISIS. I REALLY HAVE WORKED HARD TO TRY AND AVOID THOSE. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY, MA'AM. HOW MUCH DOES TO COST YOU TO PURCHASE BOTTLED WATER? >> WELL, DEPENDING ON HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE AT HOME THAT WEEK, I SPEND $4 FOR A FIVE GALLON BOTTLE. >> $4 A WEEK. >> $4 A WEEK. PLUS CARRYING IN A HEAVY BOTTLE BUT I PERSEVERE. >> NOW, I'VE RECEIVED PROBABLY OVER A THOUSAND E-MAILS ABOUT THIS ISSUE. AND I WOULD SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER SYSTEM. MANY OF THEM ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, AND I DON'T INCLUDE THOSE IN MY STATISTICS. BUT IT'S INTERESTING THIS REMAINS CONTROVERSIAL AROUND THE WORLD. BUT I'VE RECEIVED QUITE A FEW E-MAILS FROM DENTAL HYGIENISTS, AND I'M WONDERING, WERE YOU A HYGIENIST? >> I WAS AN ASSISTANT. >> THERE MAY BE HYGIENIST THAT COMES FORWARD. I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THEY'VE LEARNED ABOUT FLUORIDE AND ABOUT BODY SYSTEMS. BUT -- >> MY GUESS IS THEY'VE LEARNED NOTHING, BECAUSE IF THEY HAD, THEY WOULD NOT SUPPORT THE USE OF FLUORIDE IN OUR DRINKING WATER. >> I CAN'T PREDETERMINE THAT. BUT THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. >> THANK YOU. OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS DAVID KEEGAN. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, Mr. CHAIR, ALDERMEN AND FELLOW CITIZENS. I'M A FAMILY DOCTOR HERE IN THE CITY OF CALGARY AND AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR IN THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY ALTHOUGH I'M HERE SPEAKING AS AN INDIVIDUAL NOT ON BEHALF OF THE FACULTY. I'M MARRIED AND WE HAVE THREE KIDS AND I'M HERE SPEAKING IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDATION. MY TAKE OF THE SITUATION OVER THE LAST MONTH OR SO WHENEVER THIS FIRST CAME OUT WAS THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE TWO ISSUES: ONE A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGH NOT IN THE AMENDMENT BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE COUNCILLORS AND OTHERS TALKING TO MEDIA AND IN COMMUNICATION WITH MYSELF AND COLLEAGUES HAVE SAID THAT MAYBE THERE'S NOT EVEN A ROLE FOR A CITY TO BE INVOLVED IN PUTTING FLUORIDE IN THE WATER IN THE FIRST PLACE. MAYBE THIS IS AN ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES ROLE OR SOMEBODY ELSE'S ROLE. NUMBER ONE SOMEBODY THIS A CITY ROLE. NUMBER TWO IS THIS A GOOD THING ON BALANCE. I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS THE FIRST THING. I THINK CALGARY IS AN ABSOLUTELY GREAT CITY. IT'S WHY WE MOVED HERE. BUT I WON'T GIVE YOU MY IMPRESSION OF WHY CALGARY IS A GREAT CITY. I'LL QUOTE ALDERMAN DREW FARRELL FROM HER WEB SITE, LETTER VISION OF A GREAT CITY OF CALGARY. "A GREAT CITY IS ABOUT ADVANCING THE HEALTH, QUALITY OF LIFE AND DIGNITY OF ITS CITIZENS WHILE ALWAYS KEEPING AN EYE ON THE BOTTOM LINE." I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. ONE OF THE REFERENCES SHE QUOTES IN HER AMENDMENT -- HER PROPOSAL IS THE CENTRE OF DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION, AND THEY SAY QUITE CLEARLY WATER FLUORIDATION IN THEIR EVIDENCE, IN THEIR TAKE AND CONTINUAL EXPLORATION OF THE LITERATURE, ONE OF THE TEN BEST ADVANCES IN PUBLIC HEALTH IN THE WORLD. AND THIS IS ONE OF THE PRIMARY SOURCES THAT SHE QUOTES. AND I AGREE WITH DRUH FARRELL. I AGREE WITH HER ABOUT WHAT A GOOD CITY IS. EARLY YEARS AGO THE CITY AND ITS PARTNERED ENGAGED IN IMAGINE CALGARY. THIS WAS A WORLD-LEADING CITIZEN INVOLVED VISIONING EXERCISE ON THE FUTURE OF A GREAT CITY. WHAT'S CALGARY SUPPOSED TO BE LOOKING LIKE 100 YEARS FROM NOW? AND THEY SET UP TARGETS. UNDER HEALTH AND WELLNESS, THE CITY AND ITS COLLEAGUES AND COLLABORATING GROUPS FELT THAT HEALTH AND WELLNESS WAS A KEY THING FOR A CITY TO BE INVOLVED IN. IT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS FOR SOMEBODY ELSE. IT WAS FOR THE CITY. ONE OF THEIR KEY TARGETS, T 5, BY 2036 THE INCIDENCE OF PREVENTIBLE DISEASE, INJURY AND DEATH IS REDUCED. THE CITY HAS SINCE EMBRACED THE IMAGINE CALGARY PLAN AND HAS CREATED AN OFFICE OF SUSTAINABILITY TO SUPPORT REACHING THIS VISION. I WOULD ARGUE CLEARLY THE CITY AND THE ALDERMEN AND THE CITIZENRY FEEL THAT A CITY GOVERNMENT HAS A ROLE IN HEALTH PROMOTION AND DISEASE PREVENTION FOR ITS CITIZENS. AND I'M GLAD. BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES HA MAKES A CITY GREAD THAT'S ONE OF THEIR ROLES. IS WATER FLUORIDATION A GOOD THING? I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN PUBLIC HEALTH AND PROMOTION BUT I HAVE LOOKED AT A GAZILLION -- ABOUT EIGHT TO TEN SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS WHICH ARE REVIEWS THAT BRING TOGETHER USING FORMAL METHODS TO LOOK AT WHAT DOES ALL THE RESEARCH SAY AND BRING IT TOGETHER. AND BRINGING TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH A CONCLUSION. VERY CLEARLY THE ANSWER IS THAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER METHOD OF FLUORIDATION AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE. IT'S BETTER THAN TOOTHPASTE ALONE, IT'S BETTER THAN FLUORIDATION DROPS AND SO ON. THE ANSWER IS WHY? BECAUSE YOU CAN CONTROL IT. IT'S A NATURALLY OCCURRING SUBSTANCE, AS ALDERMAN MacLEOD HAS SAID, THE BOW RIVER WATER SUPPLIES A .1 TO .2 PART PER MILLION. THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNTS THAT MOST EXPERTS AGREE IS 7 PARTS PER MILLION. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SUPPLEMENTING, NOT MEDICATING THE WATER, TO A LEVEL THAT GETS SOME BENEFIT FOR DENTAL DISEASE PREVENTION WHILE NOT GETTING INTO THE RANGE OF CAUSING SIGNIFICANT RISK AND INJURY. AND THIS IS NOT JUST ME SAYING IT, THIS IS SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS. THIS IS THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT COMMISSIONED A MAJOR STUDY AND LOOKING AT ALL THE RESEARCH THAT WAS UP TO DATE AND BRINGING IT TOGETHER WITH A FINAL CONCLUSION. WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT WATER FLUORIDATION IS THAT IT'S CHEAP, FAR CHEAPER THAN FAMILIES TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW IN THE WORLD DO I PUT FLUORIDE IN MY CHILD'S WATER IF THE CITY'S NOT GOING TO DO IT. AS HAS BEEN MENTIONED, WATER FLUORIDATION IS A GREAT WAY OF LEVELING SOCIAL INEQUITIES. IF YOU TAKE WATER FLUORIDATION OUT, IN BRITAIN IT WAS SHOWN DENTAL HEALTH DECLINED. DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR ANY OF THIS. YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU, THE PUBLIC DOESN'T KNOW THIS, THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE HAS OFFERED TO DEVOTE ITS EXPERTS IN PUBLIC HEALTH TO LOOK AT THIS ISSUE ON BEHALF OF CITY. YOU RECEIVED THIS OFFER ON MONDAY. I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE THAT COMING OUT OF TODAY'S MEETING YOU AS A COMMITTEE DECIDE TO DEFER THIS MOTION, TAKE THE MEDICAL SCHOOL UP ON ITS OFFER AND HAVE ITS EXPERTS, AND I WON'T BE ON IT BECAUSE I'M CLEARLY IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDATION, HAVE ITS EXPERTS LOOK AT THE ISSUE AND COME BACK TO YOU WITHIS ANSWERS OF WHAT THE SUM KNOWLEDGE SAYS TODAY. THANK YOU. >> A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS FOR YOU. THE FIRST ONE IS ALDERMAN KEATING. >> THANK YOU, CHAIR PERFORM I APPRECIATE YOU COMING BECAUSE PART OF THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS IS TRYING TO GET A TRUE AND MEDICALLY AND ETHICAL STANCE ON WHERE WE ARE. SO DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE -- BECAUSE ONE OF THE ISSUES IS WHETHER THEY'RE DRINKING WATER OR DRINKING OTHER SUBSTANCES. DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHETHER OR NOT FLUORIDE IS IN THE POPS, JUICES FROM CONCENTRATE WHERE WE ADD WATER AND ALL OF THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, IS IT STILL THERE OR ALTEREDDOR DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE? >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S IN SOFT DRINKS. AS A FAMILY DOCTOR I ADVISE ALL MY PATIENTS NOT TO HAVE SOFT DRINKS SO I WOULD NOT BE LOOKING AT THAT AS A FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENT ROUTE. IF THERE'S FLUORIDE IN THE WATER, IT WOULD ASSUME WHERE ARTIFICIAL DRINKS WERE MADE SO IF THERE WAS FLUORIDE IN THE WATER WHEREVER IT WAS MADE, I ASSUME IT WOULD BE IN THERE BUT THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW. WE WOULD NOT ADVISE GATORADE -- OR SOFT DRINKS OR WHATEVER NOW AGAIN ARE PROBABLY OKAY AS A RARE THING BUT THEY SHOULDN'T BE USED AS A REGULAR SOURCE OF HYDRATION. >> ABSOLUTELY. AND I AGREE WITH YOU A HUNDRED PERCENT. THE ISSUE IS WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THE FLUORIDE AND HOW AND AT WHAT CONCENTRATE AND WHAT DOSE. PART OF IT IS IF WE'RE NOT GIVING IT IN THE WATER, THE ISSUE IS THEY'RE GETTING IT EVERYWHERE ELSE SO MAYBE IT'S TOO MUCH. BUT WE LOOK AT SLURPEES AND THE BIG GLUPS AND ALL OF THESE THINGS AND THAT'S WHERE I'M COMING FROM. WHERE IS THE DOSE? DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE -- AND WE HEAR MANY COMMENTS ABOUT MEDICAL EFFECTS. DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE ON WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE CERTAIN INDICATIONS MEDICALLY WHERE THEY SHOULD NOT BE INGESTING FLUORIDE SPECIFICALLY I'VE HEARD KIDNEY DIFFICULTIES, ANTIREJECTION DRUGS FROM TRANSPLANTS AND INFANTS. >> I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON PUBLIC POLICY OR WATER FLUORIDATION. OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, A FAMILY DOCTOR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR A WHOLE LOT OF MONTH BUT I HAVE DEVOTING TEEM TO THIS ISSUE WHENEVER I -- TIME TO THIS ISSUE WHENEVER I COULD. IN THE AUSTRALIAN STUDY WHICH IS THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF WATER FLUORIDATION, I DID NOT SEE THAT THAT WAS IDENTIFIED. AGAIN, THOUGH, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THIS COMMITTEE POSE THAT AS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS TO AN EXPERT PANEL THAT THE MEDICAL SCHOOL CAN CREATE FOR YOU. >> JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THAT, THERE ARE NO MEDICAL CASES WHERE THEY SHOULD NOT INGEST FLUORIDE, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE. >> I DIDN'T FIND THEM. THERE'S BEEN SOME RECENT QUESTIONS OVER SHOULD WE BE USING FLOURIDATED WATER TO MIX INFANT FORMULA. WE RECOMMEND ALL BABIES ARE BREAST-FED FOR THE FIRST SIX MONTHS OF LIFE AND CONTINUE FOR THE FIRST YEAR OF THEIR LIFE. FOR THOSE WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY HAVE TO HAVE FORMULA THERE MAY BE SOME QUESTION ABOUT SHOULD YOU USE FLOURIDATED WATER FOR THAT. I DON'T THINK THE JURY IS IN FOR THAT. I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY QUESTIONS THAT HAVE COME UP TODAY THAT WE DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER FOR. I THINK THAT THE COUNCIL HAS AN OFFER OF EXPERTISE TO ANSWER SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS. AND I THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE A HELPFUL THING FOR YOU. >> THANK YOU. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE AS A DOCTOR, THERE ANY OTHER MEDICAL BENEFIT TO FLUORIDE OTHER THAN TEETH, ORAL HEALTH OR IS IT STRICTLY FOR TEETH? >> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION. THERE'S MAYBE SOME BENEFIT IN PREVENTING FRACTURES, BUT NOT HIP FRACTURES LATER IN LIFE, WHICH IS TOO BAD. HIP FRACTURES WOULD BE A GREAT THING TO PREVENT. BUT FOR OTHER FRACTURES LATER IN LIFE THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS THIS. DENTAL AND ORAL HEALTH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. THE REASON WHY IS IF YOU PREVENT CHILDREN FROM GETTING A LOT OF CAVITIES IN THEIR MOUTH, YOU IMPROVE THEIR LIVES AND PREVENT THEM FROM HAVING ISSUES RELATED TO PAIN. YOU IMPROVE THE IMPACT ON THEIR FAMILY, THEY'RE NOT HAVING TO TAKE TIME OFF TO BRING THEIR CHILD TO MULTIPLE DENTAL SURGERIES AND SO ON. YOU IMPROVE THEIR ABILITY TO SPEAK. AND YOU IMPROVE THEIR ABILITY FOR GOOD DICTION AND INTEGRATION INTO SOCIETY. GOOD ORAL HEALTH MEANS OTHER THINGS TOO. IT HELPS A POPULATION'S CHILDREN THRIVE BY HAVING NOT TO BE EMBARRASSED ABOUT BAD TEETH, BY BEING ABLE TO HAVE GOOD DICTION IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT MISSING TEETH AND LESS IMPACT ON THE FAMILY THAT POOR ORAL HEALTH BRING. >> AM I CORRECT IN ASSUMING THERE'S FLUORIDE IN OUR BONES THAT WILL HELP STRENGTHEN IT? >> YES. BONES TURN OVER AND, YES, THERE IS FLUORIDE IN BONES. THE GREATEST IMPACT OF WATER FLUORIDATION IS ON TEETH. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING. >> DO YOU KNOW IF THERE'S ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE AND THE ARTIFICIAL FLUORIDE? >> I HADN'T HEARD THAT CONCERN UNTIL TODAY BUT FLUORIDE IS AN ELEMENT AND IT'S LIKE ANY OTHER ELEMENT THAT IF IT'S IN A PURE FORM WHETHER IT'S THROUGH INDUSTRIAL MEANS OR NATURAL MEANS, IT'S FLUORIDE. I THINK THOUGH THAT IT WOULD BEHOOVE YOUR COMMITTEE TO ASK YOUR CITY ADMINISTRATION TO CLARIFY THE QUALITY PROCESSES THAT GO IN TO CHOOSING THE SOURCE OF FLUORIDE THAT GOES INTO THE WATER AND I'M SURE THERE'S VERY GOOD EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THAT IT'S A PURE FORM OF FLUORIDE. IT WOULD BE NO DIFFERENT BECAUSE FLUORIDE IS AN ELEMENT, A NATURAL SUBSTANCE. >> THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN STEVENSON. >> THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. TELL ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE -- OR WHAT DO YOU HAVE AS PROOF THAT THERE'S BENEFIT TO CALGARIANS SINCE WE'VE ADDED THE FLUORIDE? WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE OF ANY BENEFIT? >> SO, I DON'T HAVE A STUDY TO POINT TO. THERE MAY BE ONE DONE, BUT I'M NOT AWARE AFTER STUDY THAT WAS DONE LOOKING AT CALGARY AS PREFLUORIDE VERSUS POST FLUORIDE. THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY POST FLUORIDE MAY HAVE GOTTEN WORSE IS BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY MORE PEOPLE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE VARYING DEGREES OF DENTAL HEALTH. THEY MOVED TO CALGARY AND BROUGHT WITH THEM LESS GOOD ORAL HEALTH AS A STARTING POINT. I DON'T THINK WE KNOW THE ANSWER HAS CALGARY BENEFITED. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THERE ARE NUMBERS OF NOT JUST STUDIES BUT SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS WHERE ALL THE RESEARCH IS PUT TOGETHER USING FORMAL METHODS TO LOOK AT WHAT THE OVERALL BOTTOM LINE CONCLUSION. THE BOTTOM LINE CONCLUSION IS EVEN TODAY WATER FLUORIDATION IS A GOOD THING, NOT A BAD THING. I HEAR THE SORT OF SCENARIO THAT OUR PREVIOUS SPEAKER HAD AND THAT SOUNDS VERY DIFFICULT, AND SHE'S NOT HERE AT THIS MOMENT, BUT IT MAY HAVE BEEN AT THOSE TIMES THERE WERE TOO MANY SOURCES OF FLUORIDE. LIKE ANY SUPPLEMENT, YOU CAN HAVE TOO MUCH OF A GOOD THING. BUT IN THE PROPER DOSE, THE PROPER TINY DOSE WELL CONTROLLED, THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS IN THE WORLD TODAY SHOW THAT CLEARLY STILL TODAY WATER FLUORIDATION IS A GOOD THING, NOT A BAD THING. >> WELL, THERE'S BEEN A DEFINITE DECLINE, A SIGNIFICANT DECLINE, IN TOOTH DECAY IN THE LAST 30 YEARS. THE DATA SHOWS THAT FROM 1975 TO 2005, OVER THAT 30-YEAR PERIOD, THAT WHEN THEY DO THE DATA AND THE STUDY ON 12-YEAR-OLDS AND THEIR TOOTH DECAY, THERE'S A HUGE DECLINE. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE UNITED STATES AND AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND, THERE'S NO MORE IMPROVEMENT THERE THAN THERE IS IN BELGIUM AND FINLAND AND ITALY WHICH DO NOT FLOURIDATE. TELL ME HOW WE KNOW THE FLUORIDATION IS PLAYING A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN THIS DECLINE. >> WHEN YOU SET UP A PROPER STUDY, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE COMPARING APPEARINGS TO APPLES. WHAT WE EAT IN CANADA THE U.S. AND AUSTRALIA MIGHT BE MORE SOFT DRINKS, MORE CANDY BARS THAN MAYBE WHAT THEY EAT IN ITALY. WE DON KNOW. WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU SET UP A STUDY LIKE THIS IS COMPARE AREAS THAT HAVE FLUORIDATION VERSUS NOT AND YOU ENSURE THEY'RE MATCHED SO YOU'RE COMPARING COMS TO APPLES AND YOU CHANGE ONE VARIABLE AND THEN YOU SEE THE OUTCOME. MY UNDERSTANDING IS WHEN THEY'RE WELL DONE, CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTS WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY KEY VARIABLE THAT CHANGES, THERE ARE LESS CAVITIES IN THE POPULATION. IN ALL SOCIO-ECONOMIC GROUPS BUT PARTICULARLY THE LOWER SOCIO-ECONOMIC GROUPS. >> SOME OF THE MAJOR STUDIES IN THE STATES TODAY, THERE'S REALLY A DENTAL CRISIS IN DETROIT, NEW YORK, AND YET THEY'VE BEEN FLORIDATED FOR YEARS. >> IF THEY PULL OUT WATER FLUORIDATION IT WILL GET ONLY WORSE BECAUSE THERE'S OTHER THINGS THAT ARE CAUSING IT. >> YOU'RE SAYING IT'S DIET FOR THE FLUORIDE. >> A COMBINATION OF THINGS. I'M IN CHARGE OF BRUSHING MY KIDS' TEETH AT HOME. IT'S INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT. ONCE IT'S BECOME CLEAR TO ME, I ASK MY PATIENTS, PARENTS, REGULARLY WHO'S IN CHARGE OF BRUSHING THEIR TEETH, IT'S USUALLY THE CHILD. AND I THINK WOW IF I AS AN ADULT, A DOCTOR WHO KNOWS HOW IMPORTANT IT IS, I HAVE TROUBLE AND THE DENTAL HYGENIST SAYS THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD JOB YOU'VE BEEN DOING, JOHN'S DAD, BUT YOU COULD BE DOING A LITTLE BIT BETTER. IF I HAVE TROUBLE, THEN HOW CAN A 6-YEAR-OLD CHILD BE DOING GREAT DENTAL CARE TO THEMSELVES. THAT'S WHAT FLUORIDATION GIVES YOU. IT'S AN EXTRA SAFETY BUFFER AND AS LONG AS IT'S DIALED DOWN TO THE PROPER LEVEL SO THAT IT GIVES GOOD VALUE AT A VERY LOW RISK OF COSMETIC PROBLEMS, IT'S A VALUABLE SECOND BUFFER BECAUSE THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF REASONS. FLOSSING, BRUSHING AND A DIET PEOPLE CONSUME, HOW FREQUENTLY THEY BRUSH, GRAZING OF FOOD. ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO POOR ORAL HEALTH. >> YOU DON'T CONSIDER IT MEDICATION. >> NO. I CONSIDER THIS TO BE A SUPPLEMENT. SORT OF LIKE IODINE SALTS. SORT OF LIKE IRON IN BABY CEREAL, PABLUM, ONE OF THE GREATEST CANADIAN INVENTIONS OF ALL TIME. >> I TAKE INVIT TAKE VITAMIN C Y BUT WOULDN'T FORCE IT ON EVERYBODY ELSE IN CALGARY. >> I WOULDN'T EITHER BECAUSE THE RESEARCH ON VITAMIN C IS A BIT TRICKY. >> WE'LL DISCUSS THAT SOME OTHER DAY. THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> THANK YOU. AND THANK YOU FOR THE PRESENTATION. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE HEARD IS THERE'S ALTERNATIVE WAYS OF GETTING FLUORIDE. HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THAT? >> MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS ARE CLEARLY THEY'RE GOOD BUT NOT AS GOOD AS WATER FLUORIDATION. AND SO THE VALUE OF HAVING IT IN THE WATER IS THAT IT DOES GET INTO YOUR BLOOD AND SO YOU'RE CONTINUALLY BATHING YOUR TEETH IN TOPICAL FLUORIDE BY YOUR SALIVA. THAT'S WHY WATER FLUORIDATION WORKS WHEREAS BRUSHING YOUR TEETH TWICE A DAY WHILE A GOOD THING IS NOT ENOUGH. YOU SPIT OUT THE FLUORIDE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO INGEST A BIG LUMP OF FLUORIDE AT ONCE. THAT'S ONLY A TWICE A DAY APPROACH. BY HAVING IN THE WATER THROUGH THE SYSTEM YOU'RE CONSTANTLY BATHING AND THAT'S WHY IT'S A BETTER ROUTE -- OR IT'S SUPERIOR ABOVE ALL THESE OTHER SYSTEMS. >> THANK YOU. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE SYSTEMATIC STUDY IN AUSTRALIA. SO I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS, I GUESS. ONE IS WHEN WAS THAT DONE. BUT THE OTHER IS CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME -- LIKE, IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY, A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW IS YOU TAKE ALL THE RESEARCH OUT THERE AND GO THROUGH IT ALL? AM I ANYWHERE -- YOU GO THROUGH IT ALL AND COME UP WITH AN ON-BALANCE WHAT'S THE RISK AND WHAT'S THE BENEFIT. >> YES. I'M NOT A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW EXPERT. HAVE I HAD MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE EXPERTS LOOK AT THE ONES THAT I COULD FIND AND THEY SAID THEY ARE WELL DONE. YOU FIRST ESTABLISH CRITERIA. WHAT WOULD A GOOD STUDY LOOKS LIKE. A STUDY THAT RANDOMLY REPORTS THE DENTAL HEALTH IN DETROIT WOULD IN THE BE INCLUDED BECAUSE THERE'S NO COMPARISON. A STUDY IN BRITAIN THAT COMPARES TWO TOWNS SIDE BY SIDE ONE THAT HAS FLUORIDATION ONE THAT DOESN'T SIMILAR DEMOGRAPHICSIZE WOULD BE INCLUDED. YOU FIGURE OUT WHICH STUDIES DO YOU INCLUDE, WHICH DO YOU NOT. YOU SET UP OTHER QUALITY CONTROL MEASURES. AND YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR CONCLUSION WATT AND LINE THEM UP AND THERE'S SOME STATISTICS THAT GOES WITH THIS AND FIGURE OUT THE POWER OF THE FINDINGS. AND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A STUDY HERE OR A STUDY THERE THAT'S OUT OF KEEPING. BUT WHEN THE VAST MAJORITY LINE UP IN ONE SORT OF AREA, ONE SIDE OF THE BAR THAT SAYS IT'S A GOOD THING AND ONLY ONE OR TWO TO LINE UP TO SAY IT'S A BAD THING, THE OVERALL CONCLUSION WOULD BE IT'S A GOOD THING. IF THE REVIEW SHOWED THE IMPACT WAS IN A DIFFERENT SKEW AND YOU SET UP STATISTICS TO MEASURE ALL THESE THINGS, THEN THE CONCLUSION WOULD BE DIFFERENT. NOW THERE'S NOT JUST BEEN ONE SYSTEMATIC REVIEW, THERE'S BEEN MANY. THE DATE OF AUSTRALIAN WAS TUITIOTUITIO2006OR 2007. IT WAS A MEGA REVIEW. SINCE THEN SOMEONE DID AN UPDATE AND I FORWARDED THAT PAPER TO MISS FARRELL'S OFFICE. THE ANSWER IS NOTHING REAL REALLY CHANGED, THE SCIENCE SAYS SO FAR ON AVERAGE IT'S A GOOD THING, NOT A BAD THING. >> THANK YOU. I GUESS IT'S GOO GOOD TO KNOW TT YOU'VE GOT CURRENT INFORMATION. I SAW THE LETTER ABOUT THIS PANEL SUGGESTION THAT WAS MADE, AND I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT HAS A LOT OF APPEAL. BUT MY CONCERN ON IT IS HOW CAN WE AS COUNCIL MEMBERS AND THE PUBLIC BE CONFIDENT THAT THE PANEL IS NOT BIASED? >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION WHICH IS WHY I'VE SAID TO OUR DEAN I DON'T WANT TO BE ON THIS PANEL BECAUSE I'VE COME OUT PUBLICLY IN SUPPORT OF WATER FLUORIDATION. HOW CAN YOU BE SURE IT'S NOT BIAS, AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH IN OTHER PEOPLE. IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE AS CITIZENS HAVE FAITH IN YOU AS ALDERMEN THAT YOU WILL BE TRYING TO BALANCE IT AND WITH THE RIGHT DOLLAR FIGURE. WHAT YOU DO IS ENGAGE IN DISCUSSION WITH Dr. FEASBY AND SAY HERE IS WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE. HOW CAN WE BE SURE? I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST THAT MAYBE YOURSELF ALDERMAN MacLEOD JOIN THE COMMITTEE SO YOU CAN BE AN INSIDE PERSON TO BE SURE THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF BIAS, THAT -- SO THAT YOU BECOME THEN AN EXPERT FRANKLY IN SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS ON WATER FLUORIDATION. IT WOULD BE GOOD INSIDE KNOWLEDGE TO HAVE. I THINK THAT YOU ASK FOR WHATEVER MEASURES YOU NEED SO THAT YOU AS A GROUP WILL FEEL CONFIDENT THAT THIS WILL BE AN UNBIASED REVIEW AND YOU ASK SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. JUST LIKE ALDERMAN KEATING SAID, CAN YOU ANSWER THESE THREE QUESTIONS, AND THEN THEY'LL GET BACK TO YOU WITH THE ANSWERS. AT SOME POINT IF THE QUESTIONS ARE 0 20, IT MAKES IT A LONGER REVIEW. THE EASIEST WAY TO PREVENT BIAS IS HAVE ONE OF YOURSELVES ON THE COMMITTEE. I THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO BRING FORWARD THE VISION OF IMAGINE CALGARY TOGETHER WHEREAS ORGANIZATIONS WORKING IN COLLABORATION TOGETHER TO ACHIEVE COMMON GOALS, THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY IS ONE OF THE PARTNER GROUPS IN IMAGINATION CALGARY -- IN IMAGINE CALGARY. >> THANK YOU. THE THOUGHT OF SITTING ON THAT PANEL SORT OF MAKES ME HEART STOP A LITTLE. I'M NOT SURE I PAID GOOD ENOUGH ATTENTION TO PHYSICS IN HIGH SCHOOL TO FULLY UNDERSTAND AND APPRECIATE WHAT IS INVOLVED IN THIS. IF I'M HEARING YOU CORRECTLY, THOUGH, PART OF THE BENEFIT OR THE -- HOW WE STRUCTURE THE PANEL WILL BE THE TERMS OF REFERENCE, WHAT QUESTIONS WE ASK THE PANEL WOULD BE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS WHO'S ON THE PANEL. >> I WOULD THINK BECAUSE THAT GIVES THE PANEL A CLEAR JOB TO DO. AND THERE ARE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF WATER FLUORIDATION, OBVIOUSLY. WE'VE SEEN THEM IN THE FIRST SIX SPEAKERS HERE TODAY. THE PANEL WOULD NOT BE WEIGHING IN ON THAT. THEY'D BE ANSWERING SPECIFIC AND SCIENTIFIC ANSWERS. WHAT ARE THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS THAT WOULD HELP YOU AS ALDERMEN DO WHAT YOU DO EVERY DAY. I WOULD THINK THIS IS A HANDY RESOURCE, RATHER THAN HAVING ME COME UP AND IT'S GOOD AND HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE WHO IS A PROFESSOR COME UP AND SAY IT'S BAD, THIS WOULD BE A GOOD THING. >> THAT'S PART OF THE APPEAL BECAUSE AT SOME POINT YOU DO HAVE TO DEFER TO THOSE THAT ARE TRULY EXPERTS AND PAID BETTER ATTENTION TO PHYSICS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I DON'T THINK I HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS AT THIS POINT. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU. AND THANK YO THANK YOU FOR BEINE TODAY. I KNOW WE DISAGREE ON THIS TOPIC, ALTHOUGH I THINK WE PROBABLY AGREE ON OTHER THINGS. AND ONE OF THEM IS THE ROLE OF HEALTH, ALTHOUGH NOT HEALTH CARE, BUT HEALTH FOR CALGARIANS. AND SO THAT'S THE SUBJECT OF PART 2 OF THE MOTION. THAT WAS A CONTROVERSIAL PART OF THE MOTION. BECAUSE MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES BELIEVE IT'S NOT THE CITY'S RESPONSIBILITY. TO GET INVOLVED IN HEALTH CARE. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO -- IF THE MOTION IS SUCCESSFUL, THE FIRST PART OF THE MOTION, THEN WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO LOOK AT THE SECOND PART. AND THAT IS THE SUBJECT OF MY FIRST QUESTION. DO YOU THINK IF WE ARE SUCCESSFUL IN REMOVING FLUORIDE FROM THE DRINKING WATER IN ITS ENTIRETY WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO LOOK AT OUR OTHER CHOICES? >> WELL, I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. I THINK CITY DECISION MAKERS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. AND IF THERE'S AN INCREDIBLY WELL DOCUMENTED WAY TO PROMOTE ORAL HEALTH PARTICULARLY IN PEOPLE IN LOW SOCIO-ECONOMIC CLASSES AND YOU AS A GROUP OF CITY ALDERMEN AND MAYOR AS A GROUP DECIDE TO ABANDON THAT, THEN YOU'VE CAUSED A PROBLEM, I WOULD SUGGEST. AND THEN IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO THINK HOW CAN YOU BEST ADVOCATE TO ENSURE THAT THOSE WHO WILL BE MOST HARMED BY THAT DECISION, AND THERE WILL BE, CAN BE BEST PROTECTED. FOR THE GENTLEMAN, Mr. MEADE, WHO TALKED EARLIER TALKED ABOUT DIVERTING THE MONEY FOR FLUORIDATION TOWARDS SOM SOME ST OF DENTAL CARE PROGRAM, AND WHILE THAT MAY SOUND ATTRACTIVE I'M QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW FAR THREE-QUARTERS OF A MILLION DOLLARS WILL STRETCH ACROSS A CITY THIS BIG AND IT WILL LIKELY BE EXHAUSTED IN NO TIME WITH VERY ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO MEASURE BENEFITS DERIVED. IT WOULD BE A FAR MORE EXPENSIVE PROGRAM. AS YOU SAY, YOU'RE KEEPING AN EYE ON THE BOTTOM LINE. WATER FLUORIDATION IS YOUR BEST, CHEAPEST WAY TO PROTECT THE ORAL HEALTH OF CALGARIANS. PERIOD. AND SO IF YOU DO SOMETHING ELSE, IT'S GOING TO BE INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE. I DON'T KNOW IF THE CITY WANTS TO TAKE ON THAT BURDEN, BUT, BOY, YOU AS ALDERMEN WILL TAKE ON THAT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HAVING MADE THIS DECISION THAT AFFECTS THE ORAL HEALTH OF SO MANY PEOPLE. >> I WOULD SUGGEST THAT SOME MAY THINK BY FLOUR DATING WATER, WE'RE DEALING WITH THE POVERTY ISSUE. PERIOD. AND I THINK THERE'S EVIDENCE IN MANY, MANY CITIES THAT HAVE HIGH RATES OF POVERTY, THEIR TOOTH DECAY RATES ARE GOING UP. AND SO IT'S NOT A PANACEA. >> NO, IT'S NOT. >> NOR SHOULD WE SEE IT AS BEING DONE. I THINK THAT'S MY POINT. NOW, ONE OF THE CRITICISM -- AND YOU HAD MENTIONED CONTROLLING THE DOSE. AND CERTAINLY ONE OF THE CRITICISMS I'M HEARING FROM CONSTITUENTS IS WE CAN'T CONTROL THE DOSE. PEOPLE DRINK VARYING AMOUNTS OF WATER. SOME PEOPLE DRINK VERY LITTLE. SO THEY -- IF FLUORIDE'S A BENEFIT, THEY'RE NOT CONSUMING TAP WATER. AND OTHERS DRINK COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF TAP WATER. SO THE DOSE ISN'T BEING CONTROLLED. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE CRITICISMS. >> SO I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WOULD BE A GREAT QUESTION TO ASK AN EXPERT PANEL. HOW BIG AN IMPACT DOES THIS VARIABILITY OF FLUORIDE IN THE CITY HAVE. >> SO IF FLUORIDE IS REMOVED FROM THE WATER AND WE HAVEN'T BEEN COMPARING -- THERE WAS NO STUDIES IN CALGARY ON THE EFFECTS -- OR BENEFITS OF FLUORIDE SPECIFIC TO THIS CITY, WHICH I WOULD SUGGEST IS AN ETHICAL ISSUE PERSONALLY, IF WE DO REMOVE IT THEN SHOULD WE BE OLD GAITED TO REVIEW THE IMPACTS OF REMOVAL ON THE HEALTH OF THE POPULATION? WATERLOO JUST REMOVED FLUORIDE FROM THEIR WATER. ONTARIO FLOURIDATES WIDELY. QUEBEC DOES NOT. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HEALTH -- DENTAL HEALTH IS STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT. SO WOULD WE BE THEN OBLIGATED TO STUDY THE IMPACTS OF OUR DECISION. >> THE REASON FOR A DIFFERENCE IN DENTAL HEALTH BETWEEN QUEBEC AND ONTARIO COULD BE FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, NOT JUST WATER FLUORIDATION. I WOULD CAUTION PLEASE AS ALDERMEN YOU DON'T MAKE A DECISION ON RAPID EASY COMPARISONS WHICH YOU DON'T KNOW WHY THE DIFFERENCES MAY BE. >> BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE HEARING TODAY AND WHAT WE'LL CONTINUE TO HEAR ALL DAY IS A DIVERSITY OF OPINION. 60 YEARS INTO IT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING AS FUNDAMENTAL AS OUR DRINKING WATER. AND SO I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THE JURY'S STILL OUT. THAT CONCERNS ME WHEN IT'S MY TASK AS A DECISION MAKER WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING AS FUNDAMENTAL AS DRINKING WATER. >> I WOULD DISAGREE. THE JURY WORLDWIDE IS IN. MADAME FARRELL, THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE SYSTEMATIC REVIEW THAT I COULD FIND THAT SAID WATER FLUORIDATION WAS A BAD THING. >> AND MY QUESTION IS THEN EVALUATION. WOULD IT BE OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK AT EVALUATING THE IMPACTS OF OUR DECISION FROM TODAY OR IF WE CHOOSE TO REMOVE FLUORIDE, SHOULD WE THEN STUDY IT? AND LOOK AT THE IMPACTS OF OUR DECISION IN THE FUTURE? >> I THINK IT WOULD MAKE SENSE. I THINK IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A WELL-DESIGNED STUDY TO DO THAT BUT I THINK THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE. >> NOW, THE LAST TIME WE WENT TO AN EXPERT PANEL, THE EXPERT PANEL RECOMMENDED LOWERING THE AMOUNT IN THE DRINKING WATER. THAT WASN'T MADE -- THAT RECOMMENDATION WASN'T MADE BY HEALTH CANADA. AND IT WASN'T MADE BY ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, ALTHOUGH ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES PARTICIPATED IN THE PANEL. BUT IT WAS A RECOMMENDATION TO REVIEW IT BY THE CITY OF CALGARY. THAT LOWER DOSE THEN HAS NOW BECOME MANY, MANY YEARS LATER THE NEW STANDARD, WHICH WAS VERY INTERESTING. SO PRIOR TO THAT, PEOPLE WERE CONSUMING TOO MUCH FLUORIDE. WHAT DO WE SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO WE ASSURED AT THAT TIME THAT EVERYTHING WAS GREAT AND THEN SINCE THEN LOWERED THE ACCEPTABLE DOSE? SCIENCE CHANGES, AND WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE REVIEWING SCIENCE. >> I WOULDN'T SAY THAT SCIENCE CHANGED IS THERE'S LIKE A PENDULUM AND IT EVENTUALLY SWINGS RIGHT BACK TO THE MIDDLE SPOT. IT MAY BE IN THE PAST WHEN FLUORIDE FIRST CAME OUT IT SWUNG TOO FAR AND THERE WERE A LOT OF STUDIES THAT SHOW IT WAS TOO SUPPLEMENTED -- >> WHEN FLUORIDE FIRST CAME OUT, IT WAS 50 YEARS OF FLUORIDE -- OVERDOSING ON FLUORIDE. 50 YEARS. THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I'M SO CONCERNED IS IT TOOK US THAT LONG TO GET TO THAT POINT IN OUR KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCE. AND SO WHEN DOES THE NEXT BIG LEAP COME WITH OUR KNOWLEDGE? AND IT'S CONCERNING ME. SO I IMAGINE -- >> THE ANSWER TO THAT IS IT'S ONLY IN THE RECENT 40, 50 YEARS THAT THE SCIENCE OF HOW TO DO THESE STUDIES HAVE BEEN FIGURED OUT. YES, I THINK YES, YOU EVALUE AND MAYBE THE NUMBER SHOULD BE LOWER THAN .7. MAYBE IT SHOULD BE .6. DO WHAT YOU DID BEFORE. YOU HAD GOOD SUCCESS IT SOUNDS LIKE. CALGARY DID THIS BEFORE AND HAD A VERY GOOD SUCCESS WITH THAT AND IN FACT WAS A TRAILBLAZER SO DO IT AGAIN. >> IT WAS A TRAILBLAZER BECAUSE OF CITY COUNCIL. IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, I HAVE TO SAY, OR HEALTH CANADA. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN COLLEY-URQUHART. >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. MY QUESTION THAT I WANTED TO DRILL DOWN A LITTLE DEEPER ON WITH YOU WAS YOUR COMMENT ABOUT PEOPLE WILL BE HARMED. CAN YOU DRILL DOWN ON THAT AND BE VERY SPECIFIC ABOUT WHICH PEOPLE, WHICH AGE GROUP AND WHAT THE HARM WOULD BE. >> OKAY. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT WATER FLUORIDATION BENEFITS PEOPLE BY PREVENTING A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF CAVITIES OR CARRIES OVER TIME. >> SO THE HARM? >> SO THE HARM IS THAT IF YOU STOP DOING THAT, YOU WON'T GET AS GOOD PREVENTION. WHAT WILL HAPPEN -- I'M NOT AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST WHO CAN SAY BASED UPON A HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WHAT THE HARM WILL BE. BUT BY LOWERING THE WATER FLUORIDATION OR REMOVING IT TO JUST AN ACTUAL LEVELS MY UNDERSTANDING THERE WOULD BE LESS CAVITIES, THEREFORE MORE CAVITIES PREVENTED. >> WITH THE HOLE POPULATION? >> I UNDERSTANDING THAT AFFECTS THE ENTIRE POPULATION. THERE WAS A STUDY IN BRITAIN WHICH LOOKED AT AREAS ON THE WEST COASTS OF BRITAIN, Dr. JIM DICKINSON HAS READ THIS PAPER IN DETAIL AND HE'S A BIT OF AN EXPERT ON SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND THESE SORTS OF THINGS AND SO I CAN PUT YOU IN TOUCH WITH HIM ON THE DETAILS OF THIS. BUT WHEN THEY WITH DREW WATER FLUORIDATION AND STUDIED IT CAREFULLY, THEN THEY FOUND IN ALL AGE CATEGORIES AND ALL SOCIOECONOMIC CLASSES THERE WERE MORE CAVITIES AND IT AFFECTED PEOPLE AT THE LOWER END OF SOCIO-ECONOMIC CLASSES MORE. THAT'S MY UNDERSTAND. >> WHAT OTHER HARM? >> OF REMOVING WATER FLUORIDATION? >> YEAH. >> THEN AS I SAID TO I THINK ALDERMAN STEVENSON OR KEATING, THERE'S POSSIBLY A BENEFIT FOR FLUORIDATION FOR FRACTURE RISKS. MAYBE TAKING POWER ADDITION OUT WOULD REMOVE -- FLUORIDATIO FLUN OUT. THE HARM IS THE REMOVAL OF GOOD PREVENTION. THAT'S THE HARM. IF YOU TAKE WATER FLUORIDE OUT YOU LOSE ALL THE BENEFITS THAT FLUORIDE BRINGS. WHATEVER FLUORIDE IS GOOD FOR, IF YOU REMOVE IT, YOU LOSE ALL THAT. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN PINCOTT. >> JUST TO DECLARE AN INTEREST. >> ALDERMAN DEMONG, QUESTION? >> YOU MENTIONED THE AUSTRALIA STUDY. I'VE GLANCED AT A FEW -- WELL, QUITE A FEW OF THESE MYSELF AND THERE ARE STUDIES FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM SAYING THAT IT'S GOOD AND IT'S BAD. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT A STUDY DONE BY THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE IN CALGARY OVER A SIX, EIGHT-WEEK PERIOD IS GOING TO GIVE US A DEFINITIVE ANSWER ONE WAY OR THE OTHER WHEN STUDIES OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS SEEMS TO STILL, ALTHOUGH CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING, LEAVE SOME DOUBT IN THE MINDS OF APPROXIMATELY 50% OF THE POPULATION? >> SO WHAT YOU WOULD BE ASKING THEM TO DO IS NOT TO DO A MASSIVE NEW -- COMMISSION A NEW RESEARCH STUDY THAT WOULD TAKE THREE YEARS. YOU'D BE ASKING THEM TO REVIEW THE AVAILABLE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT BY AGREED-UPON STANDARDS MEET CERTAIN LEVELS OF QUALITY OF HAVING BEEN CONDUCTED AND LOOKING AT THOSE CONCLUSIONS AND BRINGING THEM TOGETHER AND REPORTING BACK. AND IT MAY BE -- I COULD HAVE JUST SIMPLY MISSED SOME SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THAT SHOWED THAT THERE WATER FLUORIDATION IS NOT A GOOD THING. I DID FIND ONE THAT HAD SOME SLIGHT CAUTION. BUT IT WASN'T ABLE TO DECLARE CLEARLY THAT IT WAS A BAD THING. AND SO THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE ASKING THEM TO DO IS TO LOOK AT WHAT'S AVAILABLE OUT THERE. NOT TO CREATE NEW STUDIES AND NOT NECESSARILY EVEN TO LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL STUDIES BUT TO LOOK AT PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES ARE TO REVIEW WHAT RESEARCH IS OUT THERE, TO PUT THEM TOGETHER AND FIGURE OUT THE BOTTOM-LINE ANSWER, TO LOOK AT THOSE DIFFERENT STUDIES AND PUT THEM TOGETHER. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. YOU'LL NEVER FIND A FULL AGREEMENT ON THIS. WE KNOW THAT. AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION, BUT I WOULD SUGGEST IT WOULD BE MORE HELPFUL IF YOU CAN GET GREATER CLARITY ON WHAT THE EVIDENCE MEANS, WOULD PROBABLY HELP YOU, ALDERMAN DEMONG, BE ABLE TO MAKE YOUR DECISION BETTER. BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE, YOURSELF, STRUGGLING WITH THIS. I WASN'T SURE, AND THAT'S WHY I WENT IN. BUT I'M TRAINED IN HOW TO GO TO PUB MED, PULL OUT THE STUDIES THAT ARE QUALITY STUDIES. >> WOULD THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE BE WILLING TO ACCEPT LEGAL LIABILITY AS TO -- WHEN THEY COME BACK WITH THEIR RESULT? >> I'M NOT AN AGENT ON BEHALF OF THE FACULTY. I THINK THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE WOULD IF YOU ASK SOMEBODY TO DO THEIR JOB PROPERLY AND THEY CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY'VE DONE THEIR JOB PROPERLY, THEY'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. IT'S UP TO YOU AS ALDERMEN -- THIS IS WHY YOU'RE ELECTED, IS INFORMATION AND FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH IT. NOT HERE AS AN AGENT OF THE FACULTY. THAT WOULD BE A SPECIFIC QUESTION YOU'D HAVE TO ASK FOR THE DEAN BUT IF WE'RE TRYING TO LOOK AT THIS AS A COLLABORATIVE CITY WHERE WE USE OUR PARTNER ORGANIZATIONS TOGETHER, LET'S ASK THEM THE QUESTIONS THEY CAN ANSWER AND THEY'LL GET BACK TO YOU. >> FROM YOUR POINT OF REFERENCE MD, YOU'VE HEARD MANY PEOPLE SPEAK TO THE FLUORISIS OF THE TEETH. DO YOU CONSIDER THAT A CONCERN WHATSOEVER? >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. HOW BIG IS THE PROBLEM OF FLUORISIS? ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES Dr. JIM DICKENSON HAS DONE QUITE A BIT OF WORK, DELVED INTO THE LITERATURE ON IT, A LOT OF DENTAL ABNORMALITIES ARE LABEL THE AS FLUORISIS BECAUSE THEY'RE SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE. ALTHOUGH WHEN A DENTIST LOOKS LIKE IT, THIS IS DUE TO CHANGE. IF YOU ARE A TRAINED EXPERT YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIKELY FLUORIDE-INDUCED CHANGES AND NOT. WE'VE HEARD FROM ONE PERSON TODAY WHO CLEARLY SAYS IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WAS A BIG BURDEN OF ILLNESS FOR THEM IN SOME FASHION. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT'S WHY YOU FIGURE OUT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF PARTS PER MILLION FOR THE FLUORIDE TO GET IT TO THE SWEET SPOT OF THE CURVE AS WE SAY TO IT GIVES YOU REASONABLE BENEFIT WITH A VERY LOW CHANCE OF BAD FLUORISIS. >> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING WITH THAT. MY CONCERN COMES UP WITH AGAIN THE DOSAGE REQUIREMENTS. YOU SAY THERE'S A SPECIFIC DOSAGE THAT IS A SWEET SPOT AS YOU SAY. YET I STRUGGLE TO COME UP WITH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ONE PERSON THAT DRINKS MAYBE A GLASS OF WATER A DAY AND THE ATHLETE THAT'S DRINKING 20 OR 30 GLASSES A DAY. HOW CAN YOU DETERMINE THAT THAT IS THE RIGHT DOSAGE FOR THAT PERSON VERSUS THAT PERSON HAD THERE IS NO SPECIFIC SAYING YOU SHOULD ONLY DRINK THIS MUCH WATER. >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. THE NUMBER YOU PICK IS NOT THE NUMBER THAT GOES IN PEOPLE'S MOUTHS. IT'S THE NUMBER IN THE WATER SUPPLY OF THE CITY THAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED TO SHOW THAT OVERALL THE POPULATION IS DOING WELL WITH GREAT BENEFIT AND VERY LOW HARM. >> I FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YOU DECIDE WHAT -- WE'RE TO DECIDE THE ACTUAL QUANTITY IN THE SYSTEM. BUT YOU SPECIFICALLY SAY THERE'S A DOSAGE TO AVOID FLUORISIS AND CAN STILL ASSIST IN DECAY SITUATIONS. HOW DO YOU DETERMINE THAT THE PERSON THAT IS ACTUALLY RECEIVING THIS MEDICATION NUTRIENT WHATEVER YOU WILL IS GETTING THAT RIGHT DOSAGE? CAN YOU IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM CONTROL THAT? >> YOU CAN'T, BUT WHAT YOU CAN CONTROL IS -- I'LL RETURN TO MY PREVIOUS STATEMENT IS WE KNOW 1.5 PARTS PER MILLION IS TOO MUCH. AND THEY KNOW THAT BECAUSE WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE WHOLE POPULATION AND THEY SEE OH THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH FLUORISIS GOING ON FOR WHAT PEOPLE ARE COMFORTABLE WITH, FOR WHATEVER VALUE FLUORIDE BRINGS. THEN YOU DIAL IT DOWN TO THE NUMBER, MY UNDERSTANDING IS..7, THEN FOR AT THE END OF THE DAY IT EVENTS YOU THE FOR THE POPULATION. >> YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT SOME WILL GET NOT ENOUGH AND SOME WILL GET FAR TOO MUCH. >> YES, BECAUSE THAT'S THE PROBLEM -- >> AND YOU'RE OKAY AS A DOCTOR TO SAY AS LONG AS THE OVERALL AVERAGE IS OKAY FOR THE PEOPLE I DON'T MIND THAT SOME PEOPLE GET TOO MUCH AND SOME PEOPLE GET TOO LITTLE. >> WELL, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT POPULATION HEALTH, YOU HAVE TO MAKE LARGE, BIG SWEEPING DECISIONS. IT'S LIKE IMMUNIZATIONS -- >> I'M JUST ASKING YOU AS A DOCTOR TO SAY YOU'RE OKAY BY GENERALLY SAYING THIS I'M OKAY THAT SOME ARE GETTING TOO LITTLE AND SOME ARE GETTING TOO MUCH, BUT BECAUSE THE OVERALL PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE AVERAGE AMOUNT, I'M OKAY WITH THAT? >> WHAT I'M SAYING IS YOU SUPPLEMENT THE RIGHT LEVEL SO THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE GETTING INTO GOOD RANGES AND THERE'S A SMALL NUMBER AT MOST WHO GET INTO A BIT MORE AND MIGHT END UP WITH COSMETIC DEFECTS. I'M NOT SAYING IT EVEN. YOU ERR ON THE SIDE OF LOWER AMOUNTS BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SAID WE DON'T WANT TOO MUCH FLUORISIS IN OUR COMMUNITY. THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. >> I CAN CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT. IT DOES CONCERN ME THAT I'M SEEING STUDIES WHERE UP TO 30, 40% OF UNITED STATES CITIES AND DOCTORS, DENTISTS ARE SAYING THERE IS THAT MUCH FLUORISIS HAPPENING TO PEOPLE IN THE CITIES WHERE THEY HAVE FLOURIDATED WATER SUPPLY. AT WHAT POINT DO WE SAY WE'VE GOTTEN TOO MUCH IN, WE HAVE 20, 30% FLUORISIS IN THE CITY WE HAVE TO DIAL IT DOWN. MY UNDERSTANDING IS ONCE YOU'VE GOT FLUORISIS, YOU CANNOT TREAT IT. ONCE IT'S DONE, IT'S DONE. YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND SAY WE'LL FICTION IT NOW. >> YOUR QUESTION IS AT WHAT POINT DO YOU DIAL DOWN? >> YEAH. I'M CONCERNED THAT RIGHT NOW THERE ARE STUDIES SAYING IT'S AT RATES OF AS HIGH AS 30 TO 40% IN SOME U.S. CITIES. NOW THEY HAVE DECIDED WE'VE GOT TO DIAL IT DOWN. WHAT DO WE DO IN 15 YEARS FROM NOW WHEN WE REALIZE THAT .7 WAS TOO MUCH? THE ENTIRE ATHLETICS, SUBSECTION OF OUR POPULATION, ARE COMING DOWN WITH FLUORISIS, LET'S DIAL IT DOWN AGAIN. IT'S TOO LATE FOR THEM NOW. AT WHAT POINT DO WE SAY WE'VE DONE THE RIGHT THING? >> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. IT SOUNDS LIKE THOUGH YOU'RE PRO-FLUORIDATION YOU'RE JUST FIGURING OUT WHAT LEVEL -- >> I'M NEITHER PRO NOR ANTI. I WANT TO LOOK AT THE INFORMATION. >> SO IT'S THE SAME AS THE FLIP SIDE IS IF YOU REMOVE IT ALTOGETHER WHEN PEOPLE HAVE CAVITIES AND DENTAL SURGERY AND SO ON THEN YOU'VE MISSED THE BOAT ON THEM TOO. SO I THINK THAT THAT'S ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT THE CITY SHOULD ASK, IS TODAY .7 THE RIGHT NUMBER. MAYBE .6 IS THE RIGHT NUMBER. YOU ASK PEOPLE WHO ARE WATER FLUORIDATION EXPERTS AND RESEARCH METHODOLOGY EXPERT. YOU ASK THEM WHAT IS TODAY'S RIGHT NUMBER. IT SOUNDS LIKE CALGARY WAS A TRAILBLAZER WHEN IT PICKED .7 SOME TIME AGO. WHAT WE KNOW IS THE BOW RIVER HAS .1 TO .2 WHICH IS NOT SUFFICIENT TO PROVIDE GREAT PROTECTION FROM DENTAL CAVITIES. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS RICHARD MUSTEL. >> GOOD MORNING. I'M Dr. RICHARD MUSTEL. I'M TRAINED AS A PHYSICIAN IN FAMILY MEDICINE AND IN THE SPECIALTY OF COMMUNITY MEDICINE. AND I SERVE AS THE LEAD MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH FOR CALGARY ZONE EVER ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. I THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY THAT YOU HAVE AFFORDED OUR COMMUNITY TO EXPRESS OUR VIEWS ON FLUORIDATION. I HOPE THAT ALL OF US WILL HEAR AND LEARN SOMETHING NEW TODAY AND THAT WE'LL EACH LEAVE WITH A MORE FULL UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUES AND THEIR MEANING TO CALGARIANS. I WILL FOCUS MY FEW MINUTES ON THE RELATED ISSUES OF RISK AND MISPERCEPTION, AN AND THEN WILL MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS THAT ARE INTENDED TO HELP US MOVE FORWARD TOWARDS A REASONABLE AND DEFENSIBLE RESOLUTION. I'VE BEEN INTERESTED IN FLUORIDATION FOR MANY YEARS BOTH AS A SAFE AND HIGHLY COST EFFICIENT PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE THAT BRINGS A MEANINGFUL ORAL HEALTH BENEFIT TO ALL WHO DRINK THE WATER AND AS A SOCIAL PHENOMENON. MUCH OF THE CONTROVERSY THAT CONTINUES TO SURROUND THE ISSUE IN SOME COMMUNITIES CAN BE EXPLAINED BY VARIATIONS IN THE WAY EACH OF US INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT WE PERCEIVE AS RISKS AND WHAT LEVEL OF RISKS WE ARE PREPARED TO ACCEPT TO ACHIEVE CERTAIN BENEFITS. WE ALL MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT RISK EVERY DAY. WHETHER CONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY, AND THOSE DECISIONS VARY AND EVOLVE DEPENDING ON OUR CIRCUMSTANCES AND LIFE STAGE. FACTORS THAT USUALLY ARE INCLUDED IN THIS RISK ASSESSMENT INCLUDE THE SIZE AND MEANING OF THE POTENTIAL HARM. AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE HAVE CONTROL OVER OUR EXPOSURE TO THAT RISK. THIS NOTION OF CONTROL IS OF PARTICULAR SIGNIFICANCE IN THE DISCUSSION OF FLUORIDATION. WE ALL TRUST THAT THE CITY'S WATERWORKS DEPARTMENT HAS FOLLOWED ALL THE CORRECT PROCEDURES TO CLEAN AND DISINFECT THE WATER SO THAT IT IS SAFE TO DRINK RIGHT OUT OF THE TAP. FEW CHALLENGE WHETHER IT IS BEST TO CHLORINATE THE WATER AS AN END POINT. WHY IS IT SOME CONTINUE TO QUESTION THE ADJUSTMENT OF THE LEVEL OF FLUORISIS, A NATURAL CONSTITUENT? I THINK IT IS BECAUSE WE IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE HAVE NOT ALWAYS BEEN EFFECTIVE IN MAKING CLEAR WHAT THE DECISION-MAKING PROCESSES ARE. WHAT CHECKS ARE IN PLACE TO ENSURE THAT POTENTIALLY HARMFUL DECISIONS ARE AVOIDED AND WHAT RIGOR IS FOLLOWED TO ENSURE DECISIONS ARE TAKEN ON THE BASIS OF THE BEST INFORMATION AND EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN ASKED PUBLICLY ABOUT THE CLAIMS OF HARM MADE ABOUT FLUORIDATION HAVE I GENERALLY RESPONDED THAT ISOLATED FINDINGS ARE OF INTEREST BUT I PLACE GREATER EMPHASIS ON SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS WHICH HAVE CONSISTENTLY FOUND THERE IS GOOD EVIDENCE FOR THE EFFECTIVENESS FOR FLUORIDATION AND INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE FOR HARMS OTHER THAN FLUORISIS. HAVE I NEVER TAKEN PAINS TO EXPLAIN HOW SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS ARE CONDUCTED, HOW THEY DELIBERATELY INCLUDE ALL SUDDENIES SUGGESTING HARM IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT ABOVE ALL ELSE WE AVOID HARMING OUR PATIENTS OUR IN PUBLIC HEALTH TERMS OUR COMMUNITIES. THIS IS A RESPONSIBILITY THAT I HAVE AS A MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH AND A PUBLIC SERVANT THAT I TAKE SERIOUSLY. TO ENSURE THAT ALL OUR PROGRAMS AND OUR INVENTIONS ARE CONTINUALLY UPDATED AND BASED ON THE MOST RECENT AND CURRENT EVIDENCE. SO THIS LEADS ME TO SOME SUGGESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT MOVE FORWARD TO A RESPONSIBLE SOLUTION OR RESOLUTION OF WHETHER TO CONTINUE FLUORIDATION OF CALGARY OR NOT. WE'VE ALREADY HEARD NOW THIS NOTION THAT PERHAPS THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY OR OTHER RESOURCES MIGHT BE AVAILABLE OR ASKED TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS. WE DID THIS IN 1998 AND THAT PANEL AS YOU KNOW DID DECIDE THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO WARRANT DISCONTINUATION OF FLUORIDATION, BUT IT DID RECOMMEND REDUCING THE TARGET LEVEL TO THE .7 BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS THE BEST TRADEOFF BETWEEN THE BENEFIT OF A REDUCTION IN CARRIES AND THE RISK OF FLUORISIS. SO IF WE WERE TO ASK THE UNIVERSITY OFF OTHER BODIES TO ASSIST US WITH IT NOW, I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA. BUT WE DO NEED TO BE CLEAR ON WHAT THE QUESTIONS WE HAVE -- WE'D LIKE TO HAVE ANSWERED. AND IT MIGHT BE GOOD TO SEEK PUBLIC INPUT IN DEFINING THOSE QUESTIONS AS WELL. THE EXACT MECHANISMS FOR RESPONDING SHOULD BE TAILORED TO THE QUESTIONS. SO ANOTHER EXPERT PANEL MIGHT BE USEFUL FOR REVIEW OF THE RISKS AND BENEFITS. WHILE A DIFFERENT GROUP MIGHT BE ASKED TO EXAMINE THE ECONOMICS OF ALTERNATE MEANS OF IMPROVING ORAL HEALTH AND SO ON. IT MIGHT EVEN BE WORTHWHILE TO CLARIFY WHETHER CITIZENS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE DIRECT INPUT ON THE FINAL DECISION THROUGH A PLEBISCITE OR WHETHER THEY WILL BE COMFORTABLE WITH THE COLLISIONORS MAKING THE DECISION ON THEIR BEHALF. ONCE THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN COMMUNICATED TO THE CITIZENS OF CALGARY AND I MIGHT ADD OTHER COMMUNITIES SUCH AS AIRDRIE THAT ARE ON THE CALGARY WATER SUPPLY, THEN WE SHOULD ALL BE ABLE TO BE CONFIDENT THAT A THOUGHTFUL AND JUST DECISION HAS BEEN MADE. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN KEATING. QUESTIONS? >> YES. THANK YOU, CHAIR. AGAIN, I'M -- GREAT THAT YOU'RE HERE BECAUSE I'M LOOKING FOR THOSE SPECIFICALLY MEDICALLY SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION, AND THAT'S THE UNFORTUNATE PART IS EVENTUALLY WE HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION SO WE'LL GO DOWN THAT LINE. I HAVE HEARD TALK ABOUT IODIZED SALT AND I'M NOT SURE BUT I BELIEVE THAT'S ACTUAL IODINE. IS THAT CORRECT? >> IODIDE? >> COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT'S IN THERE? >> I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT'S ADDED. IT'S IODIDE IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND BUT I HAVEN'T THOUGHT TO LOOK AT THAT PRIOR TO COMING HERE. >> IT'S BEEN USED AS A COMPARISON MANY TIMES. SHOULD WE TAKE IT OUT OF SALT AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE PURPOSE IS TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH. I'M NOT EVEN SURE WHAT THE CHEMICAL IS. WE KNOW IT'S THERE AND IT'S BEEN USED MANY TIMES IN THIS DEBATE. >> THE IODINE AGAIN IS -- IODIDE IS A NATURAL ELEMENT IN OUR ENVIRONMENT. AND THE ISSUE -- WHY IT WAS INTRODUCED WAS SOME PARTS OF ONTARIO AND QUEBEC HAD A HIGHER INCIDENCE OF GOITER RELATED TO THE THYROID. IT WAS RELATED TO INADEQUATE AMOUNTS OF IODINE SO THE SOLUTION WAS PUT IT IN THE SALT SO WE ALL HAVE THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT. >> THIS IS AN ACTUAL ADDITIVE THEY PUT IN SALT, IT'S NOT TREATMENT OR DO ANY SPECIFICS? >> IT'S TO SUPPLEMENT WHAT WE WOULD GET NATURALLY THROUGH OTHER SOURCES IN OUR ENVIRONMENT. THAT'S A PARALLEL TO FLUORIDE. >> MY QUESTION FOLLOWS DOWN THAT LINE IS IF YOU HAVE TOO MUCH IODIDE, IS IT A PROBLEM? >> AGAIN, IT'S NOT SOMETHING I'VE LOOKED AT. BUT IT'S NOT -- I'M NOT AWARE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN CONCERNS RAISED ABOUT HARMS BY THE IODIZED SALT. IT'S ALSO AVAILABLE IN UNIODIZED FORM. >> MY POINT IS AND ONE OF THE REASONS I ASK IS THAT DECISION HAS TO COME DOWN. SALT IN MY VIEW IS NOT A BASIC UNIT OF HUMAN CONSUMPTION, WHERE WATER IS. WE CAN'T GET ALONG WITHOUT THE WATER. AND WE HAVE TO TAKE THE FLUORIDE WITHOUT QUESTION. SALT ON THE OTHER HAND WE HEAR THAT WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE AS MUCH SO I MIDDLE EASTERN THAT'S BEING REDUCED. BUT -- I MEAN THAT'S BEING REDUCED. AND I GUESS THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING OR MY -- WHERE DO WE GO FROM THIS? BECAUSE I IT IS A BASIC -- I'LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT. IT IS A BASIC UNIT, WATER IS, AND THEREFORE SALT ISN'T. SO USING THAT COMPARISON IN MY VIEW ISN'T EXACTLY CORRECT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HELP BUT NOT TAKE WATER, BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY HAVE A CHOICE OF SALT AND YOU CAN PROBABLY GET UNIODIZED SALT I'M GUESSING AND ALL OF THAT SORT OF STUFF BUT PRESENTLY YOU CAN'T GET UNFLOUR DATED WATER UNLESS YOU PAY FOR IT, WHICH WE PAY FOR SALT ANYWAYS. >> I WOULD MAKE THE DISTINCTION THAT I HAVE NOT -- I DIDN'T INTRODUCE THE NOTION OF IODIZED SALT IN THIS, AND -- IN FACT IN EUROPE, THAT IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT FLUORIDE IS DELIVERED. THEY -- INSTEAD OF PUTTING IT IN THE WATER, THEY PUT IT IN THE SALT, THEY PUT IT IN MILK. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DELIVER THE BENEFIT OF FLUORIDE. >> AND I GUESS -- I MEAN THAT'S A GREAT POINT, THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF DOING IT AND THEN PEOPLE WOULD MAKE THAT CHOICE TO DO IT RATHER THAN PUTTING IT IN OUR BASIC UNIT. >> AND I AGREE WITH YOU ENTIRELY THAT THE FACT THAT IT'S IN WATER, WHICH I BELIEVE IS A HUMAN RIGHT, A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT, THE ACCESS TO GOOD HEALTHY CLEAN WATER, MAKES IT THAT MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAT WE DO THE RIGHT THING. AND THAT JUST ADDS THE BURDEN TO ALL OF US WHO ARE INVOLVED IN MAKING THAT DECISION. AND MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCIENCE CONFIRMS, ALLOWS, ME TO REAFFIRM MY SUPPORT FOR FLUORIDATION AS AN EFFECTIVE AND SAFE WAY OF GETTING THAT BENEFIT TO ALL THE PEOPLE THAT DRINK THE WATER. >> PERFECT. THANK YOU. THE OTHER THING WE HEAR OFTEN IS -- AND I'VE HEARD THIS FROM INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE TALKED TO ME THAT OUTSIDE OF WHAT I'VE HEARD HERE TODAY IS MY GRANDPARENTS -- OR MY GRANDCHILDREN NEED IT IN THE WATER BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING THEIR TEETH BRUSHED BECAUSE THEY WON'T GET IT DONE. SO THAT COMES INTO PARENTING AND WHERE WE GO FROM THERE. WHICH IS ANOTHER WHOLE THING. SO, AGAIN, IT COMES BACK TO THE IDEA OF PUTTING IT IN BECAUSE SOME DO NOT DO IT, AND WE CAN'T GET INTO THE IDEA OF PARENTING EVERYONE WITHIN THE CITY. BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN SOME ASPECT. I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU BECAUSE IT WAS RAISED TODAY, AND I GUESS MY STATEMENT IS IT CAME FORWARD THAT INFANTS SHOULD NOT HAVE FLUORIDE IN BASICALLY ALMOST ANY SORT OF FORM AT THIS POINT. AND YOU RECOMMEND THAT YOU BREASTFEED FOR SIX MONTHS. BUT THERE ARE MEDICAL CASES, AND I'M SURE YOU CAN COMMENT ON THIS, WHERE THE CHILD IS ALLERGIC TO MILK, AS I HAPPEN TO HAVE A DAUGHTER WHO HAD TO GO ON FORMULA BECAUSE SHE WAS ALLERGIC TO MILK, SHOULD THE CITY START PROVIDING BOTTLED WATER TO EVERY HOUSEHOLD WHERE THEY HAVE TO USE FORMULA BECAUSE THE PARENTS MIGHT NOT USE BOTTLED WATER TO MAKE THAT FORMULA? >> SO THERE'S A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT THE STATEMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE ABOUT THE USE OF FLOURIDATED WATER IN INFANT FORMULA. IN FACT WHAT THE BODIES INCLUDING HEALTH CANADA AND ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES AND CDC ATLANTA AND THE AMERICAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION SAY IS THAT IT IS SAFE TO USE WATER THAT'S FLOIRIDATED IN THE .7 PARTS PER MILLION AS OUR WATER IS IN THE PREPARATION OF INFANT FORMULA. I WOULD NOT IN ANY WAY THINK THE CITY SHOULD BE PROVIDING FOR AN ALTERNATIVE BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED TO. >> OKAY. SO TO FOLLOW THAT UP, BECAUSE I DID ASK THE QUESTIONS AND I'VE HEARD STATEMENTS BECAUSE OF KIDNEY DIFFICULTIES OR TRANSPLANT OR ANTIREJECTION DRUGS AND A NUMBER OF THESE THINGS, IS ANY OF THAT ALONG THE SAME LINES AS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING NOW? >> AGAIN, I KNOW OF NO REASON WHY A PHYSICIAN WOULD ADVISE THEIR PATIENT TO AVOID FLOURIDATED WATER. THE KIDNEY DISEASE IN PARTICULAR, FOR PERSONS WHO ARE IN RENAL FAILURE AND ARE ON DIALYSIS, THE FLUID THAT'S USED IN DIALYSIS IS FILTERED OF MORE THAN FLUORIDE. CHLORINE IS OUT AND SO ON AS WELL. SO THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE. FOR SOMEONE WHO IS NOT ON DIALYSIS, THERE'S NO HARM IN DRINKING OUR FLOUR DATED WATER. >> THANK YOU. ARE THERE ANY STATISTICS OR STUDIES OUT THERE THAT TALK ABOUT TOOTH DECAY WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD? AND I RAISE THIS BECAUSE NORTH AMERICA OR HOWEVER IS UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE A VERY HIGH SUGAR CONTENT, AND MANY OTHER AREAS OF THE WORLD DO NOT HAVE THAT SUGAR CONTENT THAT WE HAVE AND THEREFORE IN COMPARISON ARE THERE ANY STUDIES OR THINGS THAT TALK ABOUT TOOTH DECAY OUTSIDE OF THE SUGAR CONTENT? >> I THINK YOU'RE ASKING WHAT ARE THE INTERNATIONAL STUDIES AROUND TOOTH DECAY? >> OKAY. >> IT'S A VERY COMMON PROBLEM ALL AROUND THE WORLD. AND THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS THAT -- MANY DIFFERENT THINGS THAT CAN'T TO THAT. AND ALSO MANY THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO AVOIDANCE OF TOOTH DECAY, AND FLUORIDATION AS ALDERMAN FARRELL SAID, IS NOT A PANACEA. IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE OPTIMAL ORAL HEALTH. >> MY LAST QUESTION, AND AGAIN IT'S MORE OF AN OPINION THAN A QUESTION, BECAUSE I NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'RE GOING FROM THIS, WE ALL KNOW THAT IN MANY CASES SCIENCE WILL SAY THAT FLUORIDE IS GOOD AND THEREFORE LET'S DO IT, WITHOUT QUESTION, WE KNOW IT'S GOOD FOR YOUR TEETH. THE ISSUE IS WHEN WE COME BACK TO IT IS MANY TIMES SCIENCE WILL NOT STATE THAT IT IS HARMFUL WITHOUT CLEAR, CLEAR STUDIES OR DEFINITION THAT THIS IS HARMFUL, EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S THERE OR NOT. >> WELL, YEAH, I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT, AND THAT'S THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WITH THE DESCRIPTION -- BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WAY SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS ARE CONDUCTED. BECAUSE WE ARE -- BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A RESPONSIBILITY THAT WE DON'T HARM, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARNED IN MEDICAL SCHOOL, FIRST, DO NO HARM. IT'S PART OF THE HYPOCRATIC OATH. SO THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO US. SO IN FACT THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS ERR ON THE SIDE OF IDENTIFYING A RISK, A HARM. AND THEY DOWNPLAY BY REQUIRING A HIGHER QUALITY OF STUDY TO -- THAT PROPOSE A BENEFIT. EVEN WITH THAT, THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE CONTINUE TO STATE THAT THERE'S GOOD EVIDENCE OF A BENEFIT, NO GOOD EVIDENCE OF MEANINGFUL HARM OTHER THAN FLUORISIS. AND THAT'S THE DIFFICULTY THAT WE ALL FACE. IT'S ESSENTIALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE THE NEGATIVE. SO IT'S EASY TO SAY MAYBE IT COST US THIS, MAYBE IT DOES THAT; AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE OTHERWISE. SO WE HAVE TO MANAGE THAT PERCEPTION. AND THAT'S WHY I FOCUSED ON THAT. AND I THINK THE WAY TO DO THAT, ONE OF THE WAYS TO DO THAT, IS TO TRY TO MAKE IT AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE THAT WE'VE GOT AS ROBUST A PROCESS AS POSSIBLE AROUND HOW WE MAKE OUR DECISIONS. AND HOW WE DETERMINE WHAT THAT LEVEL OF RISK IS. AND WE NEED TO HAVE THE INPUT OF OUR COMMUNITY BECAUSE IN SOME RESPECTS, RISK TOLERANCE IS AN EXPRESSION OF A COMMUNITY NORM. SO IF WE ARE ABLE TO COMPLETE THIS PROCESS, WHETHER OR NOT YOU DECIDE TO ENGAGE UNIVERSITY OR OTHERS TO HELP WITH ANSWERING SPECIFIC QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE, AND WE WORK AT GETTING THAT INFORMATION OUT TO THE PUBLIC, AND THEY STILL SAY ON BALANCE THAT'S NOT FOR US, OKAY, I ACCEPT THAT AS THE WILL OF THE COMMUNITY. THAT WOULD BE OUR COMMUNITY NORM. THAT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS PUBLIC SERVANTS TO PROVIDE THE BEST INFORMATION WE CAN, MAKE DECISIONS AS WE CAN BASED ON ALL THAT BEST EVIDENCE. SOMETIMES WE WILL MAKE A DECISION THAT ISN'T A POPULAR ONE, AND YOU DO THAT AND OTHERS WILL DO THAT AS WELL. THAT'S BEST ON YOUR BEST JUDGMENT OF THE EVIDENCE. AND YOU WEIGH THE CONSEQUENCES. SOMETIMES THAT MEANS YOU LOSE THE NEXT ELECTION. BUT IT'S A MATTER OF WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO, WHAT DOES THE SCIENCE TELL US, AND I'M TELLING YOU WHAT I UNDERSTAND THE SCIENCE TELLS US. WHAT IS THE REFLECTION OF THE COMMUNITY'S WILL IN TERMS OF RISK TOLERANCE. WE HAVE TO SORT THAT OUT AS WELL, AND I THINK THAT'S PART OF THIS PROCESS AND HOW YOU MOVE FORWARD IN ANSWERING THE QUESTION. >> THANK YOU. THAT WAS FABULOUS BECAUSE IT DOES NAIL DOWN EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE DOING, UNFORTUNATELY, IS WE HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION WHETHER IT'S FAVOURABLE OR UNFAVOURABLE. AND EITHER WAY -- I WAS GOING TO MAKE A KIND OF SILLY COMMENT. BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT MEDICAL RESEARCH AND ALL OF THAT, AND I WASN'T GOING TO DO IT BUT AFTER YOUR COMMENTS I THINK I WILL, AND IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. AND I ASK EVERYONE HERE TO TAKE ASIDE THE EMOTIONAL I GUESS CONCEPT OF WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY, BUT -- AND I WATCH WAY TOO MUCH T.V., SO YOU CAN TAKE IT IN THAT CONTEXT, I ONCE SAW A SHOW WHERE THEY BELIEVED THE FELLOW'S ARTHRITIS WAS FROM BAD TEETH SO THEY PULLED ALL HIS TEETH. WHEN WE LOOK AT MEDICAL I GUESS RESEARCH AND THEORY AND RISK, WHICH IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WE HAVE TO WEIGH OUT THAT RISK AND DECIDE WHERE WE'RE GOING FROM THERE. NOW, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A MEDICAL ISSUE, IF THAT WAS ACTUALLY TRUE OR NOT, BUT IT WAS ON T.V. SO IT HAS TO BE TRUE. [Laughter] >> I MUST HAVE MISSED THAT PROGRAM. >> BUT THEREIN LIES WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN STEVENSON. >> THANK YOU. I THINK WE'RE -- A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, THE DENTISTRY PROFESSION WAS VERY UNITED ON THEIR ARGUMENTS AGAINST TAKING FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER, AND THEIR SUPPORT FOR FLUORIDATION. BUT IT'S NOT UNITED TODAY. THERE'S A BIG SPLIT. AND ALTHOUGH YOU AND I LIKELY AGREE AND A THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO IS NOT ANYWHERE COMPARABLE TO THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY, BUT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO IS A WELL-RECOGNIZED UNIVERSITY AND HARDY LIMBACK WHO IS THE HEAD OF PREVENTIVE DENTISTRY PROGRAM AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO STATES AND I'LL QUOTE WHAT HE SAID "FLUORIDATION IS NO LONGER EFFECTIVE." HE WENT ON TO ADD "BUT ADDING THE CHEMICAL TO THE WATER IS MORE HARMFUL THAN BENEFICIAL." CAN YOU COMMENT ON THAT? BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS STRUGGLE TO TELL US THAT EVERYBODY'S UNITED ON THIS, THAT ADDING FLUORIDE TO THE WATER IS BENEFICIAL AND THERE'S NO HARM. >> SO CERTAINLY I'M AWARE OF Dr. LIMBACK AND HIS ROLE OF U OF T AND RESPECT HIS OPINION. HE REGULARLY IS INVOLVED IN RESEARCH. IN FACT ONE OF HIS RECENT PAPERS LOOKED AT THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THERE WAS ACCUMULATION OF FLUORIDE IN BONE. AND THEY LOOKED AT -- THEY ACTUALLY SAMPLED BONE IN PEOPLE THAT WERE UNDERGOING SURGERY AND FROM AREAS THAT WERE FLOUR DATED AND NOT FLOURIDATED, IT WAS NOT BORNE OUT BY HIS OWN RESEARCH. >> DO YOU THINK HE'S CHANGED HIS POSITION? >> NO, I THINK IF YOU ASKED HIM TODAY, HE'D REAFFIRM THAT QUOTE. HE IS ONE THAT'S A VOICE THAT NEEDS TO BE HEARD AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO HAVE THE REGULAR AND ONGOING SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF THE WITH RA TOUR. LITERATURE. WHERE THE UNANIMITY COMES IN THAT I SAID AND OTHERS HAVE SAID IS WHEN YOU DO THAT SYSTEMATIC BROAD LOOK AT IT ALL, ALL OF THE BODIES HAVE COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION. SO, YES, THERE ARE "OUTLIERS". AND WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT. YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO FOLKS WHO RAISE QUESTIONS. BUT THEN YO THEN YOU HAVE TO THE INTO THE SCIENCE AND TAKE THE BODY OF IT TO GUIDE OUR DECISION-MAKING. >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN COLLEY-URQUHART. >> THANK YOU, DOCTOR, FOR BEING HERE. ARE YOU AN EXPERT ON FLUORIDE OR FLUORIDATION? >> I'VE BEEN INTERESTED IN READING ABOUT FLUORIDATION FOR A LONG TIME. WHERE WOULD MY EXPERTISE BE? IT WOULD BE REALLY ACTUALLY AROUND IT AS A PUBLIC HELL HEALH MEASURE, SO, YES, I AM. I'M A PUBLIC HEALTH PHYSICIAN AND THAT'S WHERE MY EXPERTISE LIE. >> SO AS A MEASUREMENT AND INFORMING YOURSELF THROUGH PROBABLY KEEPING CURRENT ON THE RESEARCH? >> I DO. AND I RELY ALSO ON OUR TEAM WITHIN HEALTH PROMOTIONS AND DISEASE PREVENTION. ONE OF THE FOLKS THAT WILL BE FOLLOWING ME IS OUR PROVINCIAL DENTAL OFFICER. HE WOULD BE MORE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN FLAGGING THINGS FOR ME AND I REVIEW THEM. >> WHAT MAKES PEOPLE AN EXPERT AROUND THIS MATTER? >> I GUESS I'D MAYBE ASK YOU. >> I GET TO ASK THE QUESTIONS. [Laughter] >> YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO SEMANTICS ABOUT -- >> WE NEED TO KNOW BECAUSE EVERYONE CLAIMS TO BE. >> WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYBODY ELSE -- I'M THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS SAID I HAVE EXPERTISE AROUND FLUORIDATION AS A PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE BECAUSE MY EXPERTISE IS PUBLIC HEALTH. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRAINED TO DO. IT'S A ROYAL COLLEGE SPECIALTY, THAT'S WHAT I'VE DONE FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS. >> THAT'S HELPFUL. SO BASED ON SOME OF THE COMMENTS YOU'VE MADE, IF THIS IS SO CRITICAL AND SO IMPORTANT, WHY IS IT NOT A PROVINCIAL ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES POLICY, AND WHY ARE RURAL ALBERTANS LEFT OUT OF HAVING FLUORIDATION IN THEIR WATER? I COME FROM SOUTHERN ALBERTA. THOSE RESIDENTS DON'T HAVE IT, AND I'M SURE IT'S THE SAME WAY ACROSS RURAL ALBERTA. WHY THE DISCREPANCY? >> ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES DOES NOT OPERATE THE WATER TREATMENT FACILITIES, THAT'S A MUNICIPAL RESPONSIBILITY. SO IT'S NOT OUR PLACE TO PUT THAT IN THOSE COMMUNITIES. SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION. >> SO THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA, ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, DOESN'T DEEM IT TO BE A MANDATORY HEALTH REQUIREMENT FOR HEALTH AND WELLNESS. >> WE NEED TO MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN ALBERTA HEALTH AND WELLNESS WHICH IS MAYBE WHO YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT AND ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT ALBERTA HEALTH AND WELLNESS. >> BOTH. BOTH. I WOULD THINK THEY WORK TOGETHER. >> SO ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES IS THE SERVICE DELIVERY ARM. SO WE DO NOT SET POLICY FOR THE PROVINCE. THAT'S THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT. AND ALBERTA HEALTH AND WELLNESS IN FACT ARE SUPPORTIVE OF FLUORIDATION AS A GOOD PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE. THAT MINISTER DOES NOT SET GOVERNMENT POLICY, CAUCUS DOES. SO I DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT WHETHER THEY'VE ASKED THAT. WE'VE ADVOCATED, AS YOU KNOW, IN MANY -- IN SEVERAL OTHER ISSUES FOR PROVINCIAL ACTION SUCH AS ON TOBACCO CONTROL AND SO ON, YET THE CITY CHOSE TO BE AHEAD OF THE PROVINCE IN TERMS OF RESTRICTING ACCESS TO TOBACCO. SO THAT'S THE POLITICS OF OUR PROVINCE. >> HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT RURAL ALBERTA NOT HAVING ACCESS TO FLUORIDATION? >> WELL, I'M CONCERNED. SO SOME DO. WE DO -- ALBERTA HAS I THINK IT'S ABOUT 70 ODD PERCENT OF OUR POPULATION IS COVERED BY FLOURIED WATER. THE BIGGEST POPULATIONS ARE CALGARY AND EDMONTON. MANY RURAL COMMUNITIES DO FLOURIDATE, SOME DON'T. AND MANY ALBERTANS WHO ARE ON WELLS OF COURSE WILL NOT BE HAVING THEIR WATER TREATED. SOME OF THOSE HAVE A GOOD LEVEL OF FLUORIDE IN THEIR WATER. SOME HAVE TOO MUCH. THAT'S ONE OF THE ROLES THAT WE SERVE AS PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS IS TO REVIEW THE WATER LEVEL IN WELLS AND -- OR A VARIETY OF THINGS ALSO NITRITES AND SO ON, WHICH ARE AN ISSUE FOR INFANTS. SO WE WORK WITH RURAL ALBERTANS AS WELL, AND I THINK IT'S -- I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT IN FACT THE PROVINCE TOOK ACTION ON IT AND MADE IT A MANDATORY POLICY ACROSS THE PROVINCE. BUT THEY HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO DO THAT. [Please Stand By] >> THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT IS -- PARDON ME, IF WE WERE TO TAKE IT OUT, AGAIN, THEN YOU HAVE A MAJORITY WHO ARE NOT GETTING THE BENEFIT THAT THEY ASKED YOU TO KEEP IN THERE. SO, YOU HAVE TO SORT THAT OUT AS POLITICIANS. AGAIN, I THINK YOU... AS YOU POINT OUT, IT'S NOT BINDING SO YOU TAKE THAT AS DIRECTION, BUT NOT -- BUT NOT BINDING DIRECTION, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO ALSO UNDERSTAND AND ASK THOSE QUESTIONS AS YOU ARE NOW, AND POTENTIALLY WITH OTHER RESOURCES, LIKE THE UNIVERSITY, SO THAT YOU'RE SATISFIED ABOUT THE SAFETY AND EFFICACY OF THE ISSUE. AND THEN YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. OH, MY LAST QUESTION... PEOPLE JUST CONFINE THEIR QUESTIONS ON FLUOROCIES TO JUST TEETH. SO, WHAT IN YOUR VIEW, IS THE IMPACT OF FLUOROCIES ON THE BODY? >> WHAT IS THE...? >> THE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS ABOUT FLUOROCIES HAVE JUST BEEN CONFINED TO ITS EFFECT ON TEETH, SO COULD YOU COMMENT, PLEASE, ON THE EFFECT OF FLUOROCIES ON THE BODY? >> OKAY. EXCUSE ME. THE OTHER AREA WHERE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT FLUOROCIES IS IN BONE, AND THAT'S AT LEVELS THAT ARE JUST NOT SEEN HERE. SO IT'S NOT AN ISSUE IN A COMMUNITY WITH OPTIMALLY FLUORIDATED WATER. >> THANK YOU. >>ALED ALDERMAN MARCH? >> THANK YOU, CHAIR. FIRSTLY, TO DECLARE ANY INTEREST, AND THANK YOU FOR COMING, DOCTOR. I DO APPRECIATE YOUR PRESENCE, BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, YOU CARRY A LOT OF WEIGHT IN THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA AND IN THE CITY OF CALGARY. SO, LISTENING TO YOUR COMMENTS AND THE QUESTIONS THAT I'M HEARING FROM MY COLLEAGUES, I HAVE A FEW VERY, VERY POIGNANT COMMENTS REGARDING HEALTH OF CHILDREN, PARTICULARLY INFANTS. I'M ABOUT TO HAVE A NEW-BORN BABY, LITERALLY ANY MINUTE... WELL, NOT ME PERSONALLY, BUT JOELLA. I HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT, OR SO THEY TELL ME. SO MY CONCERN IS MY WIFE IS ALSO UNABLE TO BREAST-FEED BECAUSE OF THE -- SHE HAS SOME OTHER HEALTH ISSUES AS WELL. SO THIS IMPACTS MY DECISION-MAKING TREMENDOUSLY, BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT I AM AWARE OF ALL THE LATEST INFORMATION AND STUDIES THAT ARE SUGGESTING THAT WE -- IF WE'RE GOING TO FEED OUR CHILD THROUGH BOTTLE, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN NOW, THE STUDIES ARE SUGGESTING THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE USING -- AS ALDERMAN COMPETING SUGGESTED, WE SHOULD NOT BE USING MUNICIPAL TAP WATER BECAUSE OF THE FLOOR RIDE, AND WE SHOULD ALSO REDUCE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE OUR CONSUMPTION OF THIS. AND THERE'S NO REAL WAY TO -- TO CONTROL THAT IF ONE CONSUMES A LOT OF WATER. FOR EXAMPLE, IF I CONSUME TWO GLASSES OF WATER A DAY, MUNICIPAL TAP WATER, AND YOU, PERHAPS, AS A MARATHON RUNNER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WOULD CONSUME 30 OR MORE. THIS WOULD DRAMATICALLY INCREASE AND INFLUENCE THE AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE THAT YOU'RE BRINGING INTO YOUR SYSTEM. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU CANNOT CONTROL. >> SO, I THINK THERE'S STILL QUESTIONS THERE. ONE IS AROUND YOUR CHILD, AND CONGRATULATIONS. THAT'S WONDERFUL. >> THANK YOU. >> YOUR LIFE'S ABOUT TO CHANGE. >> THANK YOU. >> AND ACTUALLY, WHEN I WAS CUTTING -- WHEN I FIRST WROTE MY COMMENTS, I DID ACTUALLY BRING THAT IN, ABOUT THE NOTION OF THE RISKS THAT -- AND OUR RISK JUDGMENT THAT WE MAKE. IT VARIES THROUGH OUR TIME COURSE, AND ONE OF THE BIG CHANGES IN YOUR LIFE COURSE IS WHEN YOU BECOME A PARENT AND YOUR RISK TOLERANCE CHANGES. >> MM-HMM. >> AND YOU HAVE THIS ADDITIONAL RESPONSIBILITY. THAT'S ALSO THE KIND OF ADDITIONAL RESPONSIBILITY THAT ACCRUES TO YOU AS A PUBLIC SERVANT AND ME IN PUBLIC HEALTH. SO WE TAKE THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES VERY SERIOUSLY. THE EVIDENCE, INDEED, IN SPITE OF YOUR COMMENT, AND I'M SORRY TO CONTRADICT YOU, BUT -- IS THAT YOUR CHILD, IF YOU ARE RECONSTITUTING FORMULA WITH CALGARY WATER OF. 7 PARTS PER MILLION, THAT WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY SAFE. >> OKAY. >> THE SECOND PART WAS ABOUT ME. I'M NOT A RUNNER. I'M AN OLD-TIME HOCKEY PLAYER AND I DRINK LOTS OF WATER, AND I'M GLAD THAT I DO, BECAUSE -- THE FACT THAT I'M AN OLD-TIME HOCKEY PLAYER, IS MY GUMS ARE RECEDING AND MY ROOTS ARE BEING EXPOSED AND I KNOW THAT THE FLUORIDE IN THE WATER IS CONTINUING TO PROVIDE PROTECTION TO ME AS WELL. IT'S NOT A BENEFIT THAT ONLY ACCRUES TO CHILDREN. >> MM-HMM. MM-HMM. SO, THAT'S -- YOU'RE REFERRING, OF COURSE, TO THE TOPICAL BENEFITS OF HAVING IT ON YOUR TEETH FOR THAT FRACTION OF A SECOND THAT YOU'RE DRINKING IT? >> WELL, AS WAS POINTED OUT EARLIER, IT'S BOTH TOPICAL AND SYSTEMIC, AND THE SYSTEMIC, THERE'S THE SALIVA, AND IT'S IN OUR SALIVA AND IT THAN CONTINUES THAT BATHE, IF YOU WILL, OF OUR TEETH IN THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF FLUORIDE. >> Alderman John Mar: OKAY. SO FROM A GOVERNMENT'S PERSPECTIVE, AND I DON'T -- I DON'T MIND YOU CONTRADICTING ME AT ALL. I'M A PUBLIC SERVANT AND THAT HAPPENS QUITE WRECKLY, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE. SO MY COMMENT NOW IS IF WE ARE LOOK AT THIS FROM A GOVERNANCE PERSPECTIVE AND WE'RE TRYING TO DO THE BEST THAT WE CAN AS A MUNICIPAL, WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IS HEALTH IN TERMS OF THE GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE IN THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA? >> WELL, IT'S A SHARED RESPONSIBILITY. EXCUSE ME. IT'S A SOCIETAL RESPONSIBILITY AND IT'S THE -- IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INSTITUTIONS THAT WE CREATE IN SOCIETY, BECAUSE HEALTH IS -- THE HEALTH THEY FELT THAT WE ENJOY OR THE ILLNESSES THAT BEFALL US ARE A SUM MAKINGS OF MANY DETERMINANTS. HEALTH CARE IS ONE LITTLE BIT, AND IN FACT, THE SMALLEST PART OF OUR HEALTH. IT'S THE OTHER SOCIAL DETERMINANTS, AS THE VERY FIRST SPEAKER TALKED ABOUT: INCOME AND HOUSING AND SO ON. THOSE ARE ALL VERY IMPORTANT. YOU HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY IN THOSE. I HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY AROUND THE HEALTH SERVICES PIECE. I ALSO HAVE A ROLE AS A MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH TO ADVOCATE WITH YOU AND WITH OTHER GOVERNMENT LEVELS TO ENSURE THAT WE ALL DO OUR PART, THAT WE HAVE -- THAT WE CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT THAT CREATES OPPORTUNITIES FOR HEALTH FOR ALL OF THE CITIZENS. AND I BELIEVE FLUORIDATION IS ONE THAT DOES THAT. >> Alderman John Mar: I APPRECIATE THAT. I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT, IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT IS ABOUT BUILDING CITIES, AND WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT WE ARE DOING AS A WELLNESS PERSPECTIVE. AND IT IS HEALTH CARE AND IT IS ARTS AND IT IS SOCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS FROM A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT AGENCIES. ALL WORKING TOGETHER, BUT MY -- MY QUESTION SPECIFICALLY IS IF YOU ARE SO INTERESTED AND BELIEVE TO YOUR VERY CORE, AS I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU DO, THAT WE SHOULD CONTINUE THIS PROCESS, WHY IS THE ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES NOT CONTRIBUTING FINANCIALLY TO THIS PROGRAM? IT IS $750.000 A YEAR. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE CITY OF CALGARY HAS HAD A RESPONSIBILITY THAT HAS, IN EFFECT, BEEN DOWNLOADED ON TO IT BY THE PROVINCE, AND WE WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND IF THIS IS A PRIORITY, WHICH I UNDERSTAND IT IS, FOR ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, WHY IS IT NOT COMPENSATING THE CITY? >> SO, ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES IS, IN FACT, CONTRIBUTING IN MANY WAYS TO THE ORAL HEALTH OF THE POPULATION. SO, WE -- ONE OF THE PROGRAMS THAT WE DO, IN RECOGNITION OF THE FACT THAT FLUORIDATION IS NOT SUFFICIENT. IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTES TO A REDUCTION IN DENTAL CARE AND IMPROVED ORAL HEALTH. WE HAVE TARGETED PROGRAMS TO SCHOOLS THAT ARE IDENTIFIED AS HAVING CHILDREN WITH -- WHO ARE AT HIGHER RISK FOR DENTAL CARRIERS AND WE HAVE STAFF THAT ATTEND AND APPLY FLUORIDE VARNISHES, SO, IN FACT, WE ARE CURRENTLY SPENDING MORE THAN THE AMOUNT -- THE $750 ODD THOUSAND DOLLARS IN ORAL HEALTH PROGRAMMING. SO IT'S A PARTNERSHIP. THAT WAS WE DO. YOU MANAGE THE WATER WORKS. THAT'S WHAT YOU DO. >> Alderman John Mar: NO, AND I APPRECIATE THAT. I DO. AND SOME RECENT MATERIALS THAT I'VE RECEIVED AND DO FEEL FREE TO CONTRADICT OR INTERJECT WHERE NECESSARY... THAT APPROXIMATELY OUT OF A THOUSAND DOLLARS THAT WE WOULD SPEND ON FLUORIDATING OUR WATER, ABOUT 995 OF THOSE DOLLARS ARE LITERALLY FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET, USED TO WASH OUR CARS, USED TO WASH OUR DISHES, USED TO WASH ALL OF THESE OTHER DAY-TO-DAY ITEMS, AND ONLY $5 IS ACTUALLY CONSUMED BY PEOPLE AS POTABLE WATER. FURTHERMORE, ALL OF THAT $5, REALLY, ONLY 50 CENTS OUT OF A THOUSAND DOLLARS -- I'LL SAY THAT AGAIN, ONLY 50 CENTS OUT OF A DLAU DOLLARS ACTUALLY GOES TO THE TARGET AUDIENCE, WHICH IS -- WHICH IS CHILDREN, ISN'T IT? DOES THAT SOUND LIKE SOUND FINANCIAL SENSE? >> TO BROADEN THE CONVERSATION... WE -- THERE'S MANY THINGS THAT -- WHAT YOU SHOULD DO, AND YOU'VE ALREADY DONE ONE OF THE EXAMPLES THAT YOU -- I THINK CAME NEWSPAPER THE LAST CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS, WHERE YOU WENT AHEAD OF WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTED WORKS THE IMPLEMENTATION OF WATER METERS. WE KNOW WE NEED TO BE WISER IN HOW WE USE OUR WATER, AND THERE ARE OTHER METHODS THAT WE MIGHT DO TO TRY TO SEPARATE OUT THE USES OF THE WATER. THEY THEMSELVES HAVE COMPLICATIONS OR IMPLICATIONS AND THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT WILL BE OF FUTURE DISCUSSION THAT COUNCIL HAS TO DO, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS EVEN THOUGH SO MUCH OF THAT WATER IS USED IN THOSE OTHER WAYS, THAT IS STILL THE MOST SUFFICIENT WAY, COST-EFFICIENT WAY TO GET THAT BENEFIT TO EVERYBODY. NOT JUST THE CHILDREN. ALL OF US WHO BENEFIT, BECAUSE IT IS -- AS I SAID EARLIER, ALL OF US BENEFIT, INCLUDING ALL OF YOU HERE, IF YOU DRINK THE WATER. THE ALTERNATIVE, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT MIGHT BE POSED TO AN EXTERNAL BODY, IS WHAT ARE THE -- DOING AN ECONOMIC ANALYSIS OF THE OTHER POTENTIAL WAYS OF DELIVERING IT. ANYTIME YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ACTUALLY MOVING TO DENTAL CARE. FIRST OF ALL, YOU'VE ALREADY MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO PREVENT. SECONDLY, YOU'VE GOT ONE-ON-ONE, YOU'VE GOT A HEALTH PROFESSIONAL WITH A PATIENT. THAT'S WAY MORE EXPENSIVE. SO THAT THE ALTERNATIVES, IN FACT, ARE MORE EXPENSIVE. WE NEED THEM. WE NEED THOSE OTHER SERVICES, AS I MENTIONED. WE ARE ALREADY INVESTING ADDITIONALLY TO TRY TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL BENEFIT TO CHILDREN AT HIGHEST RISK. SO IT'S NOT ONE THING ONLY. IT'S A COMBINATION OF -- OF OUT OF EFFORTS AND THE THINGS THAT YOU HOLD RESPONSIBILITY FOR AS CITY LEADERS AND WHAT I HOLD THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR AS A HEALTH LEADER. >> Alderman John Mar: NO, AND I THANK YOU FOR THAT. MY JOB, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS TO FOLLOW THE INITIATIVES AND THE DIRECTION FROM MY CONSTITUENTS. THUS FAR, AND THIS THING HAS BEEN LIT UP LIKE YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THIS ISSUE. PROBABLY MORE THAN ANY OTHER ISSUE THAT I'VE COME ACROSS IN MY THREE AND A BIT YEARS ON THIS COUNCIL, IT IS ABOUT 400-1 TO SAY GET THIS OUT OF OUR WATER. AND THE ARGUMENTS THAT I'M HEARING, THERE'S FINANCIAL ARGUMENTS, OBVIOUSLY. THERE'S THE HEALTH ARGUMENTS ALSO, BUT FOR ME, FUNDAMENTALLY, WHAT STRUCK ME THE MOST WAS THE MORAL AND ETHICAL QUESTIONS THAT THIS PRESENTS, BECAUSE ONE CANNOT REALLY OPT OUT OF THE WATER. CAN YOU? YOU'RE ACTUALLY, IN EFFECT -- WE ARE, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, IN EFFECT, MASS MEDICINE INDICATING WITHOUT CONSENT. -- MEDICATING WITHOUT CONSENT, AND TO HAVE SOMEBODY FROM A PLEBISCITE OR TO HAVE OUR COUNCIL DICTATING TO CITIZENS REALLY WHERE THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS IS -- IT'S IMMORAL, ISN'T IT? >> WELL, SOME ETHICIST, IN FACT, HAVE ARGUED THAT IT WOULD BE IMMORAL TO DO OTHERWISE. THAT IT WOULD BE I AM IMMORAL TO DENY THAT BENEFIT TO CALGARIANS. I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE THAT. THE MOST COGENT AND THOROUGH REVIEW OF THE ETHICS OF FLUORIDATION WAS CONDUCTED BY THE COUNCIL ON BIOETHICS IN THE U.K. IN -- A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, AND THEY WERE SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF PUBLIC HEALTH ETHICS. SO MUCH OF THE ETHICS THAT HAVE GOVERNED HEALTH PROFESSIONALS REALLY HAVE BEEN AROUND DIRECT FACE-TO-FACE CARE, AND THERE'S FOUR PRINCIPLES THAT WE FOLLOW: AUTONOMY BEING ONE OF THEM. DOING GOOD IS ANOTHER. DON'T DO HARM IS THE THIRD, AND JUSTICE IS THE FOURTH. >> Alderman John Mar: YES. >> SO THOSE ARE RELEVANT IN THE PUBLIC HEALTH REALM, BUT THEY DON'T TRANSLATE PARTICULARLY WELL, BECAUSE THEY'RE -- IF YOU LOOK AT AUTONOMY, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND HOW AUTONOMY PLAYS OUT IN A COMMUNITY. THERE ARE MANY DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE BY PEOPLE THAT ARE UNKNOWN TO ME ABOUT WHAT PRODUCTS -- WHAT THINGS ARE PUT IN THE PRODUCTS THAT ARE IN THEIR STORES. WHAT ARE AVAILABLE TO ME TO BUY. I DIDN'T DECIDE THAT. I CAN CHOOSE THE PRODUCT THAT'S THERE, BUT I MAY NOT EXACTLY KNOW WHAT'S IN IT. IT'S -- YOU KNOW, WE HAVE RULES AROUND WHAT'S DISCLOSED IN A PRODUCT. THEY'RE NOT AS CONCLUSIVE OR AS INCLUSIVE AS, PERHAPS, WE MIGHT WANT, SO THE ISSUE OF AUTONOMY IS ONE THAT THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT. AND IT'S NOT AS CLEAR AS IT IS IN A MEDICAL KIND OF DECISION-MAKING. IN THE -- IN THE REPORT -- SO THEY DID A -- THEY ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF PUBLIC HEALTH "E.T."ICS AND WHAT KINDS OF THINGS DO YOU NEED TO HAVE IN PLACE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS IN AN ETHICAL WAY FOR A WHOLE POPULATION AND THEN THEY DID A NUMBER OF CASE STUDIES, AND ONE OF THE CASE STUDIES, HAPPILY, WAS FLUORIDATION. AND THEY DID ADDRESS THE QUESTION OF IS -- YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF PATERNALISM, IF YOU WILL, IN ANY STATE JUSTIFIABLE IN THIS SITUATION? IS THE BENEFIT -- TO DO THE BENEFITS APPROPRIATELY OUTWEIGH ANY POTENTIAL RISKS? AND THEY DID END UP COMING DOWN WITH -- WITH, YES, THE QUESTION TO BE ANSWERED IS THE PROCEDURAL JUSTICE. DO PEOPLE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPRESS THEIR WILL ON IT? SO THAT'S REALLY WHERE THEY LANDED. THEY THINK IT SATISFIED EVERY OTHER CRITERIA THAT THEY FELT NEEDED TO BE THERE AND THEN THE FINAL ONE IS IS THERE A GOOD PROCESS, AN OPEN AND FAIR PROCESS, FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE INPUT INTO WHETHER THAT IS APPLIED AT A POPULATION LEVEL? AND THAT'S THIS PART OF THAT PROCESS THAT WE'RE INVOLVED IN NOW AND MAYBE WHAT YOU MIGHT CHOOSE TO DO BY ENGAGING OTHERS TO HELP WITH ANSWERING SPECIFIC QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE. >> Alderman John Mar: NO. AND I THANK YOU FOR THAT. THAT'S SOME -- THAT'S VERY HELPFUL. MY LAST QUESTION... BECAUSE ALBERTA'S JUST ONE SMALL CORNER OF CANADA. WHEN WE LOOK AROUND THE COUNTRY, OTHER PROVINCES AND OTHER JURISDICTIONS THROUGHOUT -- THROUGHOUT CANADA HAVE OPTED ALSO TO REMOVE FLUORIDE FROM THEIR WATER. SO, IF WE LOOK AT TWO OF OUR EASTERN NEIGHBOURS -- THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO AND THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC -- IF WE LOOK AT THOSE TWO, ONE OF THEM HAS REMOVED IT COMPLETELY. WHEREVER AS THE OTHER HAS NOT, AND YET, IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR -- GENERALLY, THEIR RATES OF CAVITIES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY THAT WOULD BE? >> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, QUEBEC HAS NOT REMOVED FLUORIDE. THERE ARE STILL FLUORIDATED COMMUNITIES. THERE ARE STILL COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE, OF COURSE, LIKE CALGARY, NATURAL LEVELS OF FLUORIDE IN THEIR WATER. SO -- AND NOT EVERY COMMUNITY IN ONTARIO IS FLUORIDATED OPTIMALLY. SO, IT'S NOT AN EITHER/OR. SO THE COMPARISONS -- AND THERE HASN'T BEEN A SYSTEMATIC COMPARISON THAT LOOKS AT HOW LONG IS EACH PERSON LIVED IN THAT PARTICULAR COMMUNITY AND IN THEIR HISTORY OF EXPOSURE. SO THAT HASN'T BEEN DONE, BUT IT'S NOT A PASS YEO EITHER/OR. >> Alderman John Mar: OKAY. WELL, THAT'S ALSO HELPFUL. ALSO, VARIOUS COUNTRIES IN EUROPE. IN FACT, VIRTUALLY ALL OF EUROPE DOES NOT FLUORIDATE. IS THAT TRUE OR IS THAT NOT TRUE? >> IT'S NOT TRUE. >> Alderman John Mar: IT'S NOT TRUE? >> AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT, IN FACT, DO FLUORIDATE, SUCH AS THE U.K. AND THERE ARE OTHERS THAT PROVIDE -- HAVE OTHER MECHANISMS OF PROVIDING FLUORIDE ON A MASS LEVEL. SO ADDED IT TO SALT. PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND THANK YOU IN THIS 4-IN MILK AND THEY MAY HAVE OTHER ADDITIONAL PUBLIC HEALTH PROGRAMMING WHERE CHILDREN ARE -- HAVE FLUORIDE VARNISHES AND SO ON. >> Alderman John Mar: RIGHT. >> SO EUROPE IS NOT A FLUORIDE-FREE ZONE, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. >> Alderman John Mar: VERY WELL. BUT YOU CAN -- YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT THEY HAVE THESE TOPICAL TREATNTS: VARNISHES. AND THEY'VE ADDED IT TO CERTAIN PRODUCTS. WHERE YOU CAN OPT IN OR OPT OUT, AS YOU WISH. IS THAT RIGHT? >> SOME COUNTRIES, THAT'S THE CASE, YES. >> Alderman John Mar: OKAY. NOW, I APPRECIATE THAT, BECAUSE IF YOU WANTED TO -- IF YOU WANTED TO -- YOU COULD DIRECT YOURSELF TOWARDS THESE PROGRAMS, WHICH WOULD PROVIDE YOU WITH THIS TYPE OF FLOOR FLUORIDE TREATMENT. WHEREAS IN CALGARY RIGHT NOW, YOU CAN'T. YOU CAN'T OPT OUT. WE ARE, IN EFFECT, AS A STATE, CHOOSING IT FOR YOU. SO, IN EUROPE, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THERE ARE PLACES WHERE IT IS FLOOR -- THERE IS FLOOR AID AVAILABLE. IT'S NOT A FLUORIDE-FROOEN ZONE, BUT YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO JUMP IN OR JUMP OUT, AS REQUIRED. IS THAT WHAT I'M HEARING? >> CORRECT. HERE IN CALGARY. AS YOU WAVED YOUR BOTTLE OF WATER, YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO DO IT. IT MIGHT BE ANOTHER QUESTION, IN FACT, YOU MIGHT WANT TO EXPLORE IF YOU ENGAGE OTHERS TO HELP WITH THIS REVIEW. YOU KNOW, I'M SURE, THAT WHEN EDMONTON INTRODUCED FLUORIDATION BACK IN -- I THINK THE '60s, THEY ACTUALLY DID SAO HAVE A TAP AVAILABLE WHERE PEOPLE COULD GO AFTER THE TREATMENT OF THE WATER WAS BEFORE THE FLOOR AID WAS ADDED SO THAT WAS AN OPTION THAT THEY MAINTAINED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN DISCONTINUED BECAUSE IT WASN'T BEING ACCESSED SO THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU'D WANT TO EXPLORE HERE. AGAIN, THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT SHOULD BE ASKED AND BE PART OF YOUR DECISION. >> Alderman John Mar: OKAY. AND I REALLY DO APPRECIATE YOU COMING DOWN HERE, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF COUNCIL HERE. THERE'S A VERY LARGE AUDIENCE. AND THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT CALGARIANS AND ALBERTANS ARE VERY, VERY INTERESTED IN. BUT -- AND SORRY TO PULL A COLOMBO, BUT MY LAST THING WAS THAT OUT OF THAT $1,000, YOU DON'T DISPUTE THE NUMBER AND YOU DON'T DISPUTE THE FACT THAT WE ARE, IN EFFECT, FLUSHING ABOUT $995 DOWN THE TOILET? >> I'M NOT REAL GOOD AT DOING NUMBERS IN MY HEAD, SO... I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. >> Alderman John Mar: THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: THANK YOU. I JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. DO YOU -- IN SOME OF THE MANY, MANY, MANY E-MAILS THAT I'VE HAD ON THIS, THERE WAS QUESTIONS IN ONE OF THEM ABOUT THE ACTUAL RATE OF FLUOROCIES AND THE INDICATIONS WERE THAT -- THAT THERE MAY BE SOME MISDIAGNOSES, THAT SOME THINGS, DENTAL ISSUES THAT WERE BEING DIAGNOSED AS FLUOROSIS WERE NOT, IN FACT, FLUOROSIS OR RELATED TO THE FLUORIDE. DO YOU KNOW OFF HAND WHAT THE RATE OF FLUOROSIS IS AS A RESULT OF FLUORIDE? >> IN CALGARY? >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: YES. >> I DON'T. I'M NOT SURE IF Dr. SCHWARZ IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO COMMENT ON THAT AREN'T. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: OKAY. >> IT REQUIRES THE SPECIFIC EFFORT TO LOOK AT THAT. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: OKAY. THAT MAY BE THE SAME, THEN, FOR MY NEXT QUESTION, WHICH IS ABOUT THE PERCENTAGE REDUCTION IN CAVITIES AS A RESULT OF THE FLUORIDE, IF WE'RE ABLE TO ACTUALLY GET A HANDLE ON THAT. >> WELL, WE -- WE HAVE DONE SURVEYS AROUND DECAYED, MISSING, FILLED TEETH, AND SINCE WE -- SINCE WE INTRODUCED FLUORIDATION, THE RESULTS ARE MIXED. IT'S NOT A CLEAR AND CONSISTENT DROP. WHICH IS NOT SURPRISING, BECAUSE OF -- AS I'VE MENTIONED AND IT'S BEEN REPEATED BY OTHERS, THERE ARE MANY FACTORS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE DEVELOPMENT OR AVOIDANCE OF DENTAL CARRIES. FLUORIDATION IS ONE HELPFUL MEASURE THAT CAN BE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL OF US. IT'S NOT SUFFICIENT. IT'S NOT THE ONLY ONE. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: OKAY. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT DO NO HARM AS BEING AN UNDERPINNING OF YOUR HIPPOCRATIC OATH. AND I'M WONDERING WHEN WE HAVE CONFLICTING RESEARCH AND THERE'S THAT, YOU KNOW, OFF CHANCE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING OUT THERE AND WE'VE HEARD PERSONAL EXPERIENCES FROM TWO COUNCILORS. HOW -- HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT ONE-OFF OR ANOMALY AGAINST THE DO NO HARM. LIKE, AT WHAT POINT DO YOU SAY THAT THE BROAD PUBLIC BENEFIT IS BETTER EVEN THOUGH A FEW PEOPLE DROP OFF THE TABLE? I'M KIND OF PUTTING IT IN A BAD WAY THERE, BUT... >> WELL, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT CLAIM, AND THEN YOU WEIGH IT AGAINST -- WELL, DOES IT MAKE SENSE? IS THERE BIOLOGICAL PLAUSIBILITY? IS THERE A DOSE RESPONSE? IS THERE CONSISTENCY WITH OTHER RESEARCH? THERE'S A WHOLE LIFT OF CRITERIA CALLED BRADFORD HILLS IS ONE OF THE SORT OF COMMON SET OF CRITERIA BY WHICH WE EXAMINE CAUSALITY. SO YOU EVALUATE IT AND THEN YOU PLACE IT AGAINST THE OTHER EVIDENCE F IT'S COMPELLING, YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S REPLICATED. INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, RICHARD DOLL, WHO WAS A PHYSICIAN IN THE -- IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, WHO REALLY LED THE CHARGE AGAINST TOBACCO AS A CARCINOGEN, HIS FIRST PAPER THAT LINKED CANCER -- CIGARETTE SMOKING WITH CANCER WAS REJECTED BY "THE BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL" BECAUSE IT WAS A ONE-OFF. THEY DIDN'T ACCEPT IT UNTIL IT WAS REPLICATED IN ANOTHER STUDY. SO IT'S THAT LEVEL OF RIGOR THAT WE NEED TO DO BEFORE WE ACT ON SUPPOSITION OR POSSIBILITIES OR WHAT-IFs. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: MM-HMM. I'VE HEARD IN THESE E-MAILS THAT I'VE GOT, THAT FLUORIDE HAS -- I THINK WE HEARD EARLIER ABOUT A CASE WITH ARTHRITIS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT FLUORIDE IS BEING BLAMED FOR EVERY DISEASE THAT DOESN'T HAVE A KNOWN CAUSE, AND CAN YOU COMMENT ON THAT OR...? ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RELATIONSHIPS TO ANY OF THESE ISSUES? >> WELL, AGAIN, THERE ARE LOTS OF CLAIMS OF HARM BEING MADE, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES THE WHOLE ISSUE TROUBLING FOR YOU AS DECISIONMAKERS AND FOR THE PUBLIC, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE PEOPLE WITH SEEMINGLY REASONABLE CREDENTIALS MAKING THESE CLAIMS. SO WE NEED TO LISTEN TO THEM, AND WE NEED TO STUDY THEM AND WE NEED TO WEIGH THEM AGAINST THE OTHER EVIDENCE. IT'S DIFFICULT, AS I SAID EARLIER, TO PROVE THE NEGATIVE. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: YEAH. >> SO YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT ALL TOGETHER AND THEN MAKE A DECISION ON THE BALANCE OF THAT INFORMATION. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: MM-HMM. THANK YOU. MY LAST QUESTION IS BACK TO THIS IDEA OF HAVING AN EXPERT PANEL. DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO ADD ON THE QUESTION OF HOW WE ENSURE THAT THE PANEL IS UNBIASED GOING INTO THIS -- IF WE DECIDE TO CREATE THIS? >> WELL, I THINK WHAT I WOULD ADD IS THAT IT'S AROUND THE TRANSPARENCY OF THE PROCESS. SO, IF YOU'VE HAD A GOOD PROCESS TO IDENTIFY WHAT THE QUESTIONS ARE THAT YOU WISH TO HAVE ASKED, YOU ARE VERY CLEAR IN THE DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW OR WHAT PROCESSES ARE GOING TO BE UNDERTAKEN TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS AND AN EXPERT PANEL MIGHT -- AS I SAID, MIGHT BE ONE OF THE WAYS THAT YOU DO THAT. THERE MIGHT BE OTHER RESOURCE THAT IS YOU'D WANT TO TAP INTO. YOU MIGHT EVEN WANT TO COMMISSION A STUDY OF SOME DESCRIPTION OR ANOTHER. BUT IF YOU'RE A PARENT -- OR TRANSPARENT ABOUT THAT THROUGHOUT AND PEOPLE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE INPUT AROUND THESE CITE CRITERIA OR THE RULES THAT YOU'RE GOING TO PLAY BY, THEN I THINK THAT OUGHT TO GO A LONG WAY IN INCREASING OUR CONFIDENCE THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING HONEST AND ETHICAL. AND, AGAIN, I WOULD REPEAT WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT, AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO TRUST. YOU KNOW. I TRUST YOU AS MY ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE TO BE HONEST AND ETHICAL AND TO WORK HARD. YOU ARE WORKING HARD ON THIS, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU PEOPLE HAVE MADE SURE THEY'RE WORKING HARD ON IT BECAUSE THEY'RE SENDING ALL SORTS OF STUFF. SO I RESPECT YOU FOR THAT. I TRUST THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO THE BEST YOU CAN, AND I WOULD LIKE TO EXPECT THAT YOU HAVE A SIMILAR FAITH AND TRUST IN ME, BECAUSE THAT'S ESSENTIALLY FOR ME TO DO MY JOB WELL, THAT I HAVE CREDIBILITY WITH YOU AND THAT YOU CAN TRUST WHAT I'M SAYING TO BE BEST -- BASED ON MY BEST UNDERSTANDING OF THIS OR ANY OTHER QUESTION THAT I MIGHT COME BEFORE YOU. >> Alderman Gael MacLEOD: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> YOU MENTIONED IN THE RURAL COMMUNITIES, YOU FOUND WELLS WITH TOO MUCH FLUORIDE. HOW MUCH TOO MUCH? MAYBE I CAN SHORTCUT THAT QUESTION A LITTLE BIT EASIER INSTEAD. WITH THE LAST PRESENTER, WE WERE DISCUSSING DOSE AND THE SWEET SPOT OF WHAT THE DOSAGE, THE CORRECT DOSAGE IS, AND I'M STILL TRYING TO WRAP MY MIND AROUND THAT. IF WE'RE PUTTING. 7 MILLIGRAMS INTO THE WATER, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING DOING, WHAT -- HOW MANY LITRES -- SO, THE AVERAGE PERSON GENERALLY DRINKS THREE LITRES A DAY? THAT'S CORRECT IS THAT CORRECT? >> I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT MUCH. >> I'M ACTUALLY LOOKING FEW FOR THE CORRECT ANSWER ON THAT. >> LESS THAN THAT. >> TWO LITRES? >> A LITRE, A LITRE AND A HALF. >> SO WE SHOULD BE GETTING ONE AND A HALF MILLIGRAMS OF FLUORIDE A DAY, IS THE GENERAL CONSENSUS. AND THAT'S REALLY THE NUMBER I'M TRYING TO GET AT. SO THAT'S APPROXIMATELY THE CORRECT DOSAGE? >> I THINK SO. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT FLOOR FLUORIDE CAN BE ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN, THROUGH BATHS, SHOWERS, ANYTHING ALONG THOSE LINES? HAS THERE BEEN ANY STUDIES WHATSOEVER IN 60 YEARS OF FLUORIDATION TO SEE IF THERE'S ANY EPIDERMAL SEEPAGE, SO TO SPEAK? >> I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. >> SO I CAN -- AFTER 60 YEARS, YOU'D THINK SOMEBODY WOULD HAVE DONE THAT. >> I DON'T KNOW. IT'S -- THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF THINGS THAT -- I MEAN, WE'VE GOT -- THE SKIN IS A MARVELOUS ORGAN. >> OH, I KNOW. >> THAT PROTECTS US FROM ABSORBING LOTS OF THINGS. SO, IT'S NOT INTUITIVE TO ME THAT IT WOULD BE ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN AND SO -- I MEAN, I'M QUITE HAPPY TO -- >> WELL, IT'S JUST -- I MEAN, WE REALIZE THAT THE SKIN ABSORBS PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING ELSE, SO, WHY -- >> IT DOESN'T, ACTUALLY. THE SKIN IS A VERY EFFECTIVE BARRIER FOR MANY THINGS. >> OKAY. FAIR ENOUGH. AFTER 60 YEARS OF FLUORIDATION, THE DEBATE STILL SEEMS TO RAGE ON AN ONGOING BASIS. WHY, IN YOUR OPINION? >> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I TRIED TO ADDRESS IN MY COMMENTS, SO I'M SORRY IF I DIDN'T EXPRESS MYSELF WELL ENOUGH. I THINK IT IS THIS ISSUE OF RISK AND RISK TOLERANCE. ALDERMAN STEVENSON MADE THE POINT ABOUT, THIS IS SOMETHING -- I HOPE IT WAS ALDERMAN STEVENSON. PERHAPS IT WAS ALDERMAN COMPETING. >> SOMEONE OVER THERE. IS IT DOESN'T MATTER. >> ABOUT WATER BEING THIS PRECIOUS THING THAT -- AND I SAID THAT I BELIEVE IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S -- IT'S A RIGHT TO US AS CITIZENS. SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS JUST GIVE IT THAT MUCH MORE EMOTIVE IMPACT, AND THAT'S FINE. THAT'S LIFE, AND IT JUST MEANS THAT WE HAVE TO BE -- WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS REGULARLY. WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT -- THAT THOSE OF US IN OUR RESPECTIVE ROLES, -- IN HEALTH OR IN GOVERNMENT -- WE DO STAY ON TOP OF THESE ISSUES. >> OKAY. >> SO THAT'S FINE. >> DO YOU CONSIDER STRESS -- I'VE HEARD MANY TIMES THAT STRESS IS ONE OF THE LEADING CAUSES OF HEALTH PROBLEMS IN THE WESTERN WORLD. IS THAT A REASONABLE ACKNOWLEDGMENT? >> STRESS IS A BIG THING IN OUR LIVES. >> OKAY. WOULD THE CONCEPT THAT A VAST MAJORITY -- A VAST MINORITY -- A VAST NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN OUR POPULATION THAT BELIEVE THAT FLUORIDE IS BAD AND HAVING IT IN OUR WATER CAUSES THEM STRESS? >> WELL, THAT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A SUPPOSITION. OKAY? WHAT IF...? WHAT IF? SO I CAN'T ANSWER THAT. >> NO, I'M NOT ASKING WHETHER THAT'S SUPPOSITION. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT STRESS -- THAT THAT COULD BE A CAUSE OF STRESS? >> NO. >> THAT'S A SUPPOSITION? >> AND I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. I KNOW THAT WHEN I HAVE -- WHEN I WAS YOUNGER -- AND I CAN'T SAY WHEN MY CHILDREN HAD CAVITIES, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T. BECAUSE WHEN MY PARENTS HAD CARRIES, WHEN I HAD CARRIES AS A CHILD GROWING UP IN MONTREAL, WHERE THERE WAS NO FLUORIDATION, THAT WAS STRESS. LET ME TELL YOU. THAT PAIN: THE COST THAT MY PARENTS HAD TO PAY FOR IT WITHOUT INSURANCE PLANS. THAT'S STRESS. >> INTERESTING. OKAY. THANK YOU. >> SEEING NO OTHER. QUESTIONS... THANK YOU, DOCTOR. OH, DID YOUR LIGHT JUST COME ON? ALDERMAN FARRELL? >> Alderman Druh Farrell: I ALWAYS ENJOY YOUR PRESENTATIONS. THEY'RE VERY THOUGHTFUL. I ALSO WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR ONE OF YOUR COMMENTS THAT YOU JUST MADE. SEVERAL COMMENTS I'VE RECEIVED FROM CALGARIANS WHO WERE -- DIDN'T AGREE WITH ME BRINGING THIS MOTION FORWARD SUGGESTED THAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH ALL OF THIS AND AREN'T WE DONE WITH THIS DISCUSSION? AND WHAT YOU SAID WAS THAT WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO REVIEW THESE THINGS, AND I WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR THAT. I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO -- OTHERWISE WE WOULD STILL HAVE BISPHENOL A AS AN ACCEPTABLE SUBSTANCE, THAT'S NOW UBIQUITOUS OR THE BIG DEBATE NOW IS PHTHALATES, SO WE'RE ALWAYS LEARNING AND WE SHOULD BE KEEPING ABREAST OF THIS NEW INFORMATION. >> THIS IS OUR PRIVILEGE TO BE IN A DEMOCRACY. >> Alderman Druh Farrell: THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, DOCTOR. FOR THE AUDIENCE, ANYBODY THAT HAS -- THAT WISHES TO SPEAK THAT HAS NOT SIGNED THE SPEAKER'S LIST THAT IS ON THE SPEAKER'S PODIUM OVER THERE... WE ARE NOW RECESSED UNTIL 1:05. CAPTIONING OF THIS MEETING IS PROVIDED AS A COMMUNICATION ACCESSIBILITY MEASURE AND IS NOT INTENDED AS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS. IF INACCURACIES OCCUR, IT MAY BE DUE TO HUMAN ERROR, TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES OR AN INABILITY ON THE PART OF THE WRITER TO HEAR OR UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID. WHILE BEST EFFORTS ARE MADE TO DOCUMENT AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE WHAT IS BEING SAID, THE CAPTIONS CANNOT BE RELIED UPON AS A CERTIFIED ACCURATE RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS. >> OKAY. CALL THE MEETING BACK TO ORDER. THE NEXT SPEAKER THAT I WOULD LIKE TO CALL FORWARD -- I SHOULD LET YOU KNOW WE'RE ON SPEAKER NUMBER EIGHT OF 41. SO WE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO. SO MY NEXT SPEAKER IS MICHELLE ROBINSON. DO WE HAVE YOUR NAME. AND YOU HAVE FIVE MINUTES. >> HI THERE. I'M MICHELLE ROBINSON. I'M FROM ABBEYDALE. I HAVE COPIES FOR WHAT I WANTED TO SAY TO EVERYBODY HERE IN CASE YOU'D LIKE ONE. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR GIVING THE WHOLE PUBLIC A CHANCE TO SPEAK TODAY. I CAME HERE TODAY ADVOCATING FOR MY FAMILY. MY HUSBAND WANTED TO BE HERE TODAY BUT HE HAD TO WORK. THERE IS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT ADDING FLUORIDE TO OUR WATER IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO MAINTAIN OUR HEALTH. BOTH ORALLY AND OTHERWISE. WE SHOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS ROOM FOR SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ON THE RISKS AND BENEFITS OF FLUORIDATION, DESPITE OUR MEDICAL AND DENTAL ASSOCIATION'S OBJECTIONS. TO NAME AT LEAST ONE WHOLE BOOK DEVOTED TO THE SUBJECT I RECOMMEND "THE CASE AGAINST FLUORIDE: HOW HAZARDOUS WASTE ENDED UP IN OUR DRINKING WATER, AND THE BAD SCIENCE AND POWERFUL POLITICS THAT KEPT IT THERE" BY THREE SCIENTISTS. Dr. PAUL CONET, Dr. JAMES BECK, AND Dr. PENNING MICKOLM. SORRY IF I MISPRONOUNCED. THAT THE MEDICAL AND DENTAL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE PLAYED POLITICS ON THIS ISSUE. IF THERE IS THAT MUCH EVIDENCE TO ILLUSTRATE THE DOWN SIDES OF FLUORIDATION TO MAKE A BOOK, CAN WE PLEASE STOP PLAYING POLITICS ON THE CONCEPT THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO DEBATE. THERE IS A DEBATE AND WE NEED TO LISTEN TO THE OTHER SIDE THAT HASN'T BEEN ADVOCATED FOR. NOT EVERYONE IS CAPABLE OF INGESTING THIS TOXIN. TO THOSE WHO HAVE LEGITIMATE HEALTH ISSUES, SPECIFICALLY KIDNEY ISSUES, WE ARE MAKING THEIR HEALTH ISSUES MUCH HARDER TO OVERCOME. FLUORIDE EXASPERATES CHRONIC KIDNEY ISSUES. IF FLUORIDATION IS WANTED FOR THE WILLING, THERE ARE OPTIONS. RATHER THAN MASS WATER CONSUMPTION. THOSE OTHER OPTIONS INCLUDE TABLETS, TOOTHPASTE, WITH FLUORIDATION. AND OR FLUORIDATION AT THE DENTAL OFFICES. EVEN FORMULA FOR BABIES HAVE A HIGH SOURCE OF FLUORIDE TO THE POINT OF CONCERN. I WOULD ASK THESE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT FLUORIDATION TO CONSIDER THE RIGHTS OF THE UNWILLING. AS A CALGARIAN IN A FREE SOCIETY I SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THE DECISION ON HOW TO APPROACH MY HEALTH AND HEALTH TO MY FAMILY. FORCING EVERYONE TO DRINK A CHEMICAL, DRUG OR TOXIN GOES AGAINST THE WHOLE IDEA OF FREEDOM AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. AS A PARENT I TRY TO ELIMINATE FOOD DYES, PROCESSED FOODS, PESTICIDES, HERBICIDES, CHEMICALS, CARCINOGENS AND MANY OTHER TOXINS FOUND IN OUR FOOD, WATER, AND SUPPLEMENT CHOICES. EVEN OUR AIR LOCALLY IS POLLUTED WITH SILVER IODINE, CONSIDERED A HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCE, A PRIORITY POLLUTANT AND A TOXIC POLLUTANT BIT EPA ALL IN THE NAME OF HAIL SUPPRESSION. MANY OF THESE THINGS I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE ON AND I WISH I DID. FLUORIDE IS ANOTHER TOXIN I'M TRYING TO HAVE A CHOICE ON AND TRYING TO ELIMINATE. I'M ASKING YOU AS A PARENT, AS A WIFE O, AS A PET OWNER, A NURSIG MOTHER, AND A CITIZEN WANTING CLEAN WATER TO PLEASE TAKE THE FLUORIDE OUT OF THE CITY WATER. TO HAVE TAXPAYERS SPEND MONEY ON THIS IS DISGRACEFUL AND UNNECESSARY. TO FORCE THIS ON MY FAMILY WITHOUT OUR CONSENT IS UNETHICAL. PLEASE KEEP THAT IN MIND WHILE MAKING YOUR DECISION AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. PEACEFULLY, MICHELLE ROBINSON. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, MISS ROBINSON THANKS FOR COMING DOWN AND DOING YOUR PRESENTATION. >> THANK YOU. >> NEXT SPEAKER ON THE LIST IS STAN NICOL. JUST HOLD ON A SECOND. ALDERMAN, CARRA, YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAND. WE'RE IN COMMITTEE. >> I'D LIKE TO DECLARE AN INTEREST. IT'S HARD NOT TO STAND IN THIS CHAMBER. >> Mr. NICOL. >> CHAIRMAN. MEMBERS OF COUNCIL. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. MY NAME IS STAN NICOL. I'M A MEMBER FOR THE COALITION OF SENIORS' ADVOCATES' ASSOCIATION AND ITS PAST VICE-PRESIDENT. I AM APPALLED THAT WITH THE INTELLIGENCE, EDUCATION AND INFORMATION AVAILABLE BEING POSTED EVERYWHERE WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO INGEST AND PROMOTE WATER TREATED WITH SUCH A DANGEROUS CHEMICAL AS FLUORIDE? MY WIFE BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION THE MEETING A-- THE MEANING ACCORDING TO THE CANADIAN DIXARY OF FLUORIDE. FLUORIDE IS A BINARY COMPOUND OF FLORINE WITH ANOTHER ELEMENT. IT IS HIGHLY CORROSIVE, POISONOUS, GASEOUS, HALOGEN ELEMENT. THE MOST REACTIVE OF ALL THE ELEMENTS. THIS IS A HEALTH ISSUE AND A MATTER OF ONE'S CHOICE WHICH IS BEING DENIED TO THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT FLUORIDE IN THEIR WATER. IT IS FORCED UPON US. IS THIS DEMOCRACY? JUST AS SMOKERS DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPOSE US TO SECONDHAND SMOKE, SO SHOULD THOSE AGAINST FLUORIDE BE EXPOSED TO CHEMICAL IN OUR WATER SUPPLY. CAN ALL THE FLUORIDE EXPERTS GUARANTEE THAT NONE OF THE THYROID, KIDNEY, HIP FRACTURES, BRAIN TUMORS, OSTEOPOROSIS, CANCER AND OTHER HEALTH CONDITIONS WERE NOT CASE 'CAUSED BY THE INGESTION OF FLUORIDE FROM OUR WATER SUPPLY OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS? IT BUILDS UP IN OUR BODIES. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE COSTS TO OUR HEALTH CARE ON THE ADVERSE EFFECTS CAUSED BY THE INGESTION OF FLUORIDE? ARE OUR LIVES BEING SHORTENED BY INGESTING FLUORIDE? WE DON'T EVER HEARD THE SIDE EFFECTS OF INGESTING FLUORIDE FROM THE PRO-FLUORIDATIONISTS. WHY? WE ARE KEPT BY ALL THE FOOD AND DRINK MADE WITH FLUORIDATED WATER, EATING AND DRINKING BEVERAGES IN RESTAURANTS WITH FLUORIDATED WATER ALSO PUTS US AT RISK. WE CAN'T ESCAPE FROM IT NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. ISN'T THAT OVERKILL? AND IRRESPONSIBLE? SERIOUSLY. I ONCE ENJOYED CALGARY WATER AND BRAGGED ABOUT ITS GOOD TASTE. SHORTLY AFTER FLUORIDE WAS INTRODUCED TO OUR WATER SUPPLY MY STOMACH REACTED TO IT ADVERSELY. TBIERSED TO BUY NON-FLUORIDATED BOTTLED WATER AND DISPENSERS, COSTING ME THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OVER ALMOST 20 YEARS. AND I AM STILL PAYING FOR CITY WATER. AS ALDERMAN MAR WAS SAYING, WHAT GOD IS FLUORIDE IN FLUSHING OUR TOILETS, WASHING DISHES, CLOTHES, WATERING OUR LAWNS AND GUARDNESS AND WASHING VEHICLES. WHAT WASTE OF OUR TAX MONEY TO WHICH I STRONGLY OBJECT. THEY ARE ALSO POLLUTING OUR RIVERS WITH FLUORIDE. WHAT GOOD IS FLUORIDE TO PEOPLE WITH DENTURES? THEY DON'T NEED FLUORIDE. WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WITH ALLERGIES? SHOULD THEY BE IGNORED? MOUTH RINSES CONTAIN FLUORIDE. TOOTHPASTE IS HEAVILY FLUORIDATED. DENTISTS GIVE FLUORIDE TREATMENTS. YOU CAN PURCHASE FLUORIDE DROPS IN THE DRUGSTORE. SO WHY IS OUR WATER FLUORIDATED? IS IT ETHICAL OR EVEN LEGAL BEING SLOWLY POISONED? THIS MAY BE CHALLENGED AND THE CITY WOULD BE HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR ACTIONS, COSTING US EVEN FURTHER. WITH ALL THIS FLUORIDE BEING CONSUMED AND THE GOOD IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO, THEN DENTISTS SHOULD BE LEANING ON THEIR DRILLS WAITING FOR PATIENTS. INSTEAD YET THEY SEEM TO BE VERY BUSY AS OBTAINING AN APPOINTMENT TAKES LONG PERIODS OF TIME. OTHER JURISDICTIONS ARE REMOVING OR RESISTING FLUORIDATING THEIR WATER SUPPLY. WHY IS CALGARY SO BACKWARD IN NOT DOING SO LIKEWISE? LOOK WHAT FLUORIDE -- FLUORIDATION -- FLUORIDE IS DOING TO THE DISPENSING EQUIPMENT. NOW IT WILL COST US MILLIONS TO REPLACE IF FLUORIDE, WHAT IT'S DOING TO THE DISPENSING EQUIPMENT, THEN HOW IS IT AFFECTING OUR BODIES? NOW IT WILL COST US MILLIONS TO REPLACE THIS EQUIPMENT. NOT TO MENTION THE $750.000 PER YEAR FOR THE FLUORIDE. WE DO NOT NEED THIS COST TO OUR TREASURY. NOR TO OUR HEALTH RISK. THE EVIDENCE AGAINST FLUORIDE HAS BEEN CONTINUALLY MOUNTING. WHY ISN'T THIS EVIDENCE AND COMMON SENSE PREVAILING HERE? TAKE FLUORIDE OUT OF OUR WATER. THE PAPERS WRITTEN BY Dr. RICHARD FOCUS, WHICH IS SOME OF IT HERE, THE LATE Dr. JOHN CAHOON "WHY I CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT FLUORIDATION", AND Dr. JIM BECK AS WELL AS OTHERS ARE PROFESSIONALS WHOSE EXPERTISE AND ADVICE SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. WITH THE KIND OF DETERMINED INFORMATION NOW AVAILABLE I DON'T SEE HOW ANY MUNICIPALITY DARES TO PUT FLUORIDE IN OUR WATER SUPPLY. PLEASE TAKE IT OUT IMMEDIATELY FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR CITIZENS. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, Mr. NICOL. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. THE NEXT SPEAKER ON MY LIST IS LUKE SWARTZ. >> I'D LIKE TO USE THE PROJECTOR FOR THE OVERHEAD. OH, IT'S ON. Mr. CHAIRMAN AND COUNCILORS, THANK YOU FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY. MY NAME IS Dr. LUKE SWART. I AM A DENTIST. I AM THE DENTAL PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICER FOR ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. I DRINK FLUORIDATED TAP WATER EVERY DAY. ORAL HEALTH IS A KEY COMPONENT OF GENERAL HEALTH. YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE HEALTH OF YOUR MOUTH FROM THE HEALTH OF YOUR BODY. COMMON SENSE TELLS US THAT FEWER CAVITIES MEANS FEWER DAYS MISSED FROM SCHOOL, FEWER INSTANCES OF PAIN AND SWELLING. BETTER ABILITY TO CHEW FOOD. AND BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE. THERE IS GOOD SCIENCE SHOWING THAT WATER FLUORIDATION WORKS TO REDUCE TOOTH DECAY. THE WEIGHT OF THE EVIDENCE INDICATES THAT IT HAS TWO POSITIVE DENTAL EFFECTS. NUMBER ONE: IT INCREASES THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE NEVER HAD DECAY. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PAGE TWELVE FROM THE BRITISH SYSTEMIC REVIEW. WHICH SHOWS 30 DIFFERENT RESEARCH METHODS IN CITIES THAT STARTED WATER FLUORIDATION WHERE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THEM. THE VERTICAL BLACK LINE SHOWS -- AT ZERO MEANS THERE'S BEEN NO CHSM THE COLOURED BARS SHOW THE PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE ZERO CAVITIES. MOST STUDIES SHOW THAT AFTER FLUORIDATION STARTS THE PROPORTION OF CHILDREN WITH NO DECAY INCREASES. THEY'RE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE "NO CHANGE" LINE. THE SECOND EFFECT THAT FLUORIDATED WATER HAS IS IT REDUCES THE AMOUNT OF DECAY IN CHILDREN WITH CAVITIES. THE SECOND PAGE I'LL SHOW SU PAGE 16 FROM THE BRITISH SYSTEMIC REVIEW THAT SHOWS SEVEN MEASURES OF WHAT HAPPENED WHEN FLUORIDE WAS REMOVED FROM A FLUORIDATED COMMUNITY. THE VERTICAL LINE AT 0 AGAIN SHOWS THAT THERE IS NO EFFECT. THE COLOURED BARS ON THE LEFT OF THE LINE SHOW THAT AFTER FLUORIDATION STOPS, CHILDREN HAVE MORE CAVITIES. CALGARY CHILDREN HAVE BETTER DENTAL HEALTH SINCE WATER FLUORIDATION STARTED. AS YOU KNOW, CALGARY DOES HAVE NATURAL FLUORIDE IN THE WATER. IT FLUCTUATES WITH THE SEASONS. UP TO .3 OR MAYBE EVEN .4 PARTS PER MILLION. CITY ENGINEERS CAREFULLY BOOST AND CONTROL THE NATURAL LEVEL AT 0.7 PARTS PER MILLION. ENOUGH TO BENEFIT DENTAL HEALTH. FLUORIDATION IS SAFE EXPESKTIVE AND IMPROVES -- AND EFFECTIVE AND IMPROVES HEALTH OF TEETH. YOU MAY HAVE HEARD CONCERNS ABOUT DENTAL FLUOROSIS. AND HOW IT IS CAUSED BY WATER FLUORIDATION. FIRST OF ALL, FLUOROSIS IS AN AESTHETIC MARKING OF TEETH. NOT A HEALTH PROBLEM. IT IS TYPICALLY A WHITISH DISCOLOURATION OF ENAMEL. THE BIGGEST RISK FOR ENAMEL FLUOROSIS COMES FROM USING DROPS OR TABLETS OF FLUORIDE OR UNCONTROLLED AMOUNTS OF TOOTHPASTE. THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS CALGARY HAD AN EXPERT PANEL REVIEW IN 1998. DENTAL FLUOROSIS RANGES FROM VERY MILD TO SEVERE. WE DO NOT FIND SEVERE LEVELS OF DENTAL FLUOROSIS IN CALGARY. AND IT IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE LEVELS OF FLOOR AID THAT WE USE IN -- OF FLUORIDE THAT WE USE IN WATER FLUORIDATION. CALGARY IS ALREADY AT THE LOWEST LEVEL OF WATER FLUORIDATION RECOMMENDED BY HEALTH CANADA'S EXPERT PANEL. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A PAGE THAT SHOWS THE DENTAL FLUOROSIS RATES IN CALGARY AND ACROSS THE PROVINCE. THE BLUE LINE -- THE HEAVY BLUE LINE SHOWS THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE 0 DENTAL FLUOROSIS. AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THAT'S ON THE INCREASE. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT TO BE HAVING. THE GREEN AND RED LINES SHOW THE LEVELS OF DENTAL FLUOROSIS THAT ARE EITHER OF VERY MILD CONCERN OR MODERATE CONCERN. AND BOTH OF THOSE LINES ARE DROPPING OVER THE YEARS. AND THEN THE FINAL PAGE THAT I'LL SHOW YOU IS THE LEVEL OF DENTAL FLOOR OWES NEWS CALGARY COMPARED WITH THE PALLISER HEALTH REGION. I USE PALLISER HEALTH REGION BECAUSE WHEN WE DID THE SURVEY THERE WE HAD A SIMILAR CALIBRATOR. AND THE COMPARISON WITH WATER FLUORIDATION IS QUITE DIFFERENT. SO THE LEVEL OF COMMUNITIES IN THE PALLISER HEALTH REGION WITH OPTIMAL FLUORIDE WATER IS LESS THAN 10% THE POPULATION. YOU CAN SEE THAT THE LEVEL OF DENTAL FLUOROSIS IS ALMOST IDENTICAL. AND THAT'S JUST IN ANOTHER PART OF OUR OWN PROVINCE. MANY THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF ENAMEL ON PERMANENT TEETH TO CAUSE THINGS THAT LOOK LIKE DENTAL FLUOROSIS, TAKING ANTIBIOTICS, HAVING HIGH FEVERS, HAVING AN ABSCESS ON THE PRIMARY TOOTH. FALLING AND BUMPING THE PRIMARY TOOTH. OFTEN ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE LUMPED TOGETHER AND CALLED DENTAL FLUOROSIS. SOME CHILDREN HAVE THESE EFFECTS ON ENAMEL WITHOUT ANY GOOD REASON. WE'VE BEEN ASKED WHY NOT JUST GIVE TOOTHPASTE OR FLUORIDE TREATMENTS TO AT-RISK PEOPLE? THERE IS NO SIMPLE WAY TO FIND AND REACH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AT RISK OF TOOTH DECAY. BUT FLUORIDATED WATER IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. IT DOESN'T STIGMATIZE OUR FELLOW CITIZENS WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR DENTAL CARE OR PREVENTIVE SERVICES. OR MAY NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO BRUSH AT ALL. I WOULD SUGGEST MAKING THE EASY CHOICE A GOOD CHOICE. DRINK TAP WATER. BY FLUORIDATING THE COMMUNITY SAYS THAT IT VALUES THE DENTAL HEALTH OF ALL ITS RESIDENTS. THANK YOU. >> IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN MacLEOD? >> SORRY. UM, I GUESS -- IF I'M LOOKING AT THIS CHART, AM I TO UNDERSTAND THAT A RATE OF -- ACTUALLY, YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT OUR RATE OF FLUOROSIS IS? THE PERCENTAGE IS? ROUGHLY? >> IF YOU LOOK AT THIS CHART, THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE OF DENTAL FLUOROSIS IS 69%. >> RIGHT, SO -- >> SO 31% MIGHT HAVE SOME EVIDENCE OF DENTAL FLUOROSIS. >> AND THAT WOULD BE FLUORIDE RELATED AS OPPOSED TO OTHER ISSUES THAT CAUSE TEETH TO LOOK LIKE FLUOROSIS? >> NO. IT WILL BE ALL OF THOSE THINGS ROLLED UP TOGETHER. SO, HEALTH CANADA RECENTLY DID A CANADIAN HEALTH MEASURES SURVEY THAT LOOKED AT DENTAL FLUOROSIS SPECIFICALLY WITH VERY CAREFULLY CALIBRATED OPERATORS. THEY LOOKED AT THE POPULATION ACROSS CANADA AND INCLUDED ABOUT 1100 CHILDREN. 10% OF THOSE CHILDREN WERE IN ALBERTA. AND THAT INCLUDED A SITE IN EDMONTON AND A SITE IN RED DEER. BOTH OF THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE FLUORIDATED. THE CANADIAN HEALTH MEASURES SURVEY DID NOT FIND ANY CHILDREN WOULD MODERATE DENTAL FLUOROSIS. SO SOME OF THESE NUMBERS THAT WE'RE GETTING IS JUST ON THE BASIS OF HOW OUR PEOPLE WERE CALIBRATED. AND WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR. >> I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND THAT CORRECTLY. YOU'RE SAYING THEALT CANADA STUDY THAT WAS RECENTLY DONE SHOWED NO DENTAL FLUOROSIS IN RED DEER AND EDMONTON FROM THE FLUORIDE WATER? >> FORGIVE ME. NO MODERATE DENTAL FLUOROSIS. SO THERE WAS VERY MILD AND MILD DENTAL FLUOROSIS WAS FOUND. >> OKAY. THAT'S INTERESTING. AND THAT WAS SEPARATING IT OUT FROM OTHER FACTORS? >> YES. >> THAT'S VERY INTERESTING. SO THESE NUMBERS, WHEN YOU SAY 31%, MEAN -- MAY INCLUDE A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THEN. >> YES. >> WHAT ABOUT REDUCTION IN CAVITIES? DO YOU HAVE ANY NUMBERS ON THAT? >> IF WE LOOK AGAIN AT THE SYSTEMIC REVIEW -- SO WE LOOK AT THE GOOD STUDIES THAT ARE ALL ROLLED UP TOGETHER, THE NUMBER -- OR THE PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE NO DECAY WHATSOEVER PROBABLY INCREASES BY ABOUT 15%. THAT'S GREAT, BECAUSE THESE ARE KIDS WHO NEVER HAD A CAVITY. IF YOU LOOK AT THE STUDIES THAT SHOW, AND HOW MANY LESS -- HOW MUCH LESS DECAY IS THERE ACROSS THE POPULATION? SO IN THESE LARGE STUDY IT IS SHOWS THERE'S ABOUT TWO TEETH WITH LESS DECAY. AGAIN I'M ROLLING UP TOGETHER THE 6-YEAR-OLDS, 12-YEAR-OLDS, AND THE 14-YEAR-OLDS. IT'S HARD TO GENERALIZE BUT WHEN YOU DO A SYSTEMIC REVIEW THEY TRY AND MAKE A CASE FOR ALL OF THOSE THINGS TOGETHER. >> SO THE EVIDENCE DOES SUPPORT A REDUCTION IN CAVITIES FOR SURE THEN? >> YES. THE BEST STUDY ON EFFECTIVENESS OF WATER FLUORIDATION, HOW GOOD IS IT AT ACTUALLY REDUCING DECAY WAS DONE BY THE AMERICANS. AND REPORTED IN 2001 BY THE CENTRES FOR DISEASE CONTROL. THEY GIVE IT -- THEY GAVE IT AN EFFECTIVE RATING OF 2 A. WHICH IS THE SECOND HIGHEST ON A RECOMMENDATION LEVEL OUT OF FIVE. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. AND MY LAST QUESTION IS ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT IS BEING FLOATED WITH THE EXPERT PANEL. DO YOU HAVE A VIEW ON THAT? AND DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO GIVE US, IF WE DID A PANEL WHAT, KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT WE WOULD WANT TO ASK? >> CALGARY HAS DONE AN EXPERT PANEL BEFORE. AND THIS ISSUE COMES UP ROUTINELY. AS YOU KNOW, THE IRISH DID A HUGE REVIEW THAT TOOK THEM A COUPLE YEARS AND REPORTED IN 2002. AND ALSO RECOMMENDED THAT THE LEVEL OF FLUORIDATION BE AT 0.7. THE BRITISH DID A HUGE REVIEW THAT TOOK AT LEAST A COUPLE OF YEARS AND REPORTED IN YEAR 2000. AND THEY RECOMMENDED THAT WATER FLUORIDATION -- THERE WAS NO REASON TO CHANGE THAT AS AN EFFECTIVE PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE. THE AUSTRALIANS UPGRADED THE YORK REVIEW AND THEY REPORTED THAT IN 2007. AND THEY DIDN'T FIND THAT THERE WAS ANY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE TO THAT. HEALTH CANADA IN THE WAKE OF ITS RESPONSIBILITY TO THE PEOPLE ALSO DID AN EXPERT PANEL REVIEW WHICH INCLUDED Dr. LEVY WHOSE PROBABLY THE PRIME RESEARCHER ON FLUORIDE INTAKE IN THE WORLD. AND ALSO INCLUDED A TOXICOLOGIST ON THEIR PANEL. AND LOOKED AT ALL OF THE RESEARCH TO SEE WHAT IS THE BEST RECOMMENDATION WE CAN MAKE FOR CANADIANS. AND THEIR REPORT HAS STILL NOT BEEN FINALLY PUBLISHED. BUT IT HAS BEEN OPEN FOR PUBLIC COMMENT. THAT'S FINALLY CLOSED AND THEY ARE NOW RESPONDING TO IT. SO THE EXPERT PANEL INCLUDED BOTH HEALTH CANADA AND MINISTRY OF THE ENVIRONMENT. BECAUSE ALLEGATIONS WERE MADE ABOUT THE SAFETY OF BOTH OF THOSE. THAT REPORT WILL BE COMING OUT PROBABLY IN APRIL. AND THE RECOMMENDATION WILL BE THAT THE LEVEL OF FLUORIDATION THAT IS IDEAL IN CANADA IS 0.7 PARTS PER MILLION. WHERE WE ARE IN CALGARY AND HAVE BEEN SINCE 1999. >> OKAY. SO IF WE HAVE A PANEL THAT LOOKS INTO THIS FROM THE UNIVERSITY, THEY'RE GOING TO FIND THE SAME INFORMATION? >> EVERY TIME THERE'S AN EXPERT PANEL THEY ALMOST INVARIABLY COME UP WITH THE SAME RESPONSE. >> OKAY. THAT'S INTERESTING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT'S THE LEADING CAUSE OF FLUOROSIS? >> EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF TOOTHPASTE. >> OF TOOTHPASTE ITSELF? >> YES. >> AND WHAT IN THE TOOTHPASTE IS CAUSING THE FLUOROSIS? >> THE FLUORIDE IN THE TOOTHPASTE, YES. >> OKAY SO, WHEN THEY SAY THAT IT'S -- THE PEA-SIZED AMOUNT ON TOOTHPASTE THAT THEY RECOMMEND FOR THE TOOTHBRUSH, THAT'S TOO MUCH? OR -- HOW -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN -- I DON'T QUITE GRASP -- YOU'RE SUGGESTING BRUSHING OUR TEETH IS CAUSING FLUOROSIS? >> DENTAL FLUOROSIS ONLY OCCURS WHILE THE TOOTH IS DEVELOPING. SO ONCE THE TOOTH HAS ERUPTED THERE IS NO LONGER ANY DANGER OF THE TOOTH DEVELOPING DENTAL FLUOROSIS. THE LATEST RECOMMENDATIONS FROM HEALTH CANADA, AND THESE JUST CAME OUT LAST YEAR, IS IN FACT THAT A PEA-SIZED AMOUNT OF TOOTHPASTE IS TOO MUCH FOR A VERY YOUNG CHILD. OUR LATEST RECOMMENDATION IS FOR THE AMOUNT OF TOOTHPASTE THAT'S THE SIZE OF A GRAIN OF RICE. UP TO AGE THREE YEARS. >> UP TO AGE THREE YEARS. SO, HOW MUCH FLUORIDE IS IN A PEA-SIZED QUANTITY OF TOOTHPASTE? >> WELL IT DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF THE PEA, BUT IT COULD BE UP TO MAYBE .75 MILLIGRAMS. >> .75 MILLIGRAMS. OKAY. NOW I WAS TALKING TO Dr. -- I'M SORRY I CAN'T REMEMBER YOUR NAME FROM EARLIER, WHO WAS RECOMMENDING THAT 1.5 MILLIGRAMS PER LITRE IS THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE FOR AN AVERAGE PERSON TO TAKE FLUORIDE IN. IS THAT CORRECT? >> THE AVERAGE ADULT CONSUMES ABOUT TWO LITRES OF WATER A DAY. SO IF THAT'S MILLION 7, THAT WILL MAKE 1.4 MILLIGRAMS. >> 1.5 -- OKAY -- SORRY, YOU'RE RIGHT. 1.4. SO IF A 3-YEAR-OLD HAPPENS TO DRINK MORE THAN A LITRE AND A HALF OF WATER A DAY, AND I REALIZE THAT'S A GREAT DEAL FOR A 3-YEAR-OLD, THEY'RE AT RISK OF GETTING FLUOROSIS? >> THEY'D HAVE TO BE DRINKING THAT ROUTINELY MANY DAYS. DAY IN AND DAY OUT. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. THAT WILL INCREASE YOUR RINK. DENTAL FLUOROSIS IF THEY'RE CONSUMING THAT MUCH WATER. >> OKAY. I WAS JUST LOOKING AT A STUDY THAT WAS COMMENTING THAT MAJOR DENTAL RESEARCHERS CONCLUDE THAT FLUORIDE IS INEFFECTIVE AS PREVENTING PIT AND FISSURE TOOTH DECAY WHICH 185% THE TOOTH DECAY EXPERIENCED BY -- WHICH IS 85% OF THE TOOTH DECAY EXPERIENCED BY CHILDREN. IS THAT ACCURATE? >> ONE OF THE SYSTEMIC EFFECTS OF FLUORIDE IS TO ACTUALLY SMOOTH OUT THE LAYERS OF ENAMEL IN THE PITS AND FISSURES. SO IT DOES HAVE SOME EFFECT THERE, BUT THAT IS NOT ITS MAJOR EFFECT. TOPICAL FLUORIDES WORK BEST ON SMOOTH SURFACES. SO THE FLUORIDES THAT YOU ACTUALLY APPLY TO THE TOOTH AS OPPOSED TO THE INGESTED FLUORIDE. >> OKAY. JUST KIND OF REFERENCES THE IRISH STUDY THAT HU YOU HAD COMMENTED ON. THEY WERE COMMENTING THAT UP TO 50% OF IRISH YOUTH ARE EXPERIENCING FLUOROSIS. ARE THEY ALL BRUSHING TOO MUCH? >> I CAN'T ANSWER THAT. >> BUT THAT WAS IN THE SAME STUDY THAT YOU JUST REFERENCED. >> THE IRISH STUDY? ALL OF THE STUDIES LOOK AT LEVELS OF FLUOROSIS. >> YES, I KNOW. AND THAT STUDY SUGGESTED THAT UP TO 50% OF IRISH YOUTH ARE EXPERIENCING FLUOROSIS. >> YES, AND SO THEY RECOMMENDED THAT THEY TURN IT DOWN TO 0.7. THE WATER FLUORIDATION LEVEL BE TURNED DOWN. >> SO, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE AMOUNT THAT WE'RE FLUORIDATING, AND YOU COMMENTED THAT .7 MILLIGRAMS -- I THINK I'M DOING THAT RIGHT. IS THE LOWEST AMOUNT THAT HEALTH CANADA RECOMMENDS. >> CORRECT. >> AND THAT IS WHAT CDC AND IRELAND HAVE JUST BOTH REDUCED IT DOWN TO. CORRECT? >> CDC'S RECOMMENDATION CAME OUT EARLIER THIS MONTH. IT WILL BE APPROVED LATER THIS SPRING. >> BUT IT IS RECOMMENDING TO LOWER IT TO .7 AS WELL? >> IT IS. >> OKAY, SO THAT MEANS FOR THE LAST -- AGAIN, 60 YEARS WE'VE BEEN RECOMMENDING TOO HIGH OF A DOSAGE? >> IT MEANS THAT THE WORLD HAS CHANGED SINCE 60 YEARS AGO. >> INTERESTING. OKAY. OKAY I'M GOING TO QUOTE ONE MORE STUDY. YOU REFER TO THE MAJOR STUDY. I'M LOOKING AT A STUDY FROM THE U.S. NATIONAL INSTITUTE DENTAL RESEARCH. 39.000 CHILDREN IN 84 COMMUNITIES, DONE IN 1986 -- NO, SORRY. FROM '88-'89, COMMENTED THAT THERE WAS NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE OUT OF THE 1 F 8 TOOTH SURFACE -- 128 TOOTH SURFACES IN A CHILD'S MOUTH, .6 OF A CAVITY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE COMMUNITIES OF FLUORIDATED AND NON-FLUORIDATED COMMUNITIES. >> TO GET AN ACCURATE MEASUREMENT OF THE DIFFERENCE THAT YOU HAVE IN DENTAL HEALTH, YOU HAVE TO DO A VERY INVOLVED STUDY. IF YOU'RE JUST DOING A GROSS LOOK AT: WHAT ARE THE PEOPLE HERE AND WHAT ARE THE PEOPLE HERE, WITHOUT KNOWING WHERE THEY MOVED FROM, WHERE THEY GREW UP, WHETHER THEY WERE ACTUALLY DRINKING THE TAP WATER, AND WHETHER THEY'RE BRUSHING WITH FLUORIDE TOOTHPASTE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET A GOOD ASSESSMENT OF WHAT EFFECT THE FLUORIDATION IN THE WATER ACTUALLY GAVE YOU. >> AND YET ISN'T THAT THE BASIS OF USING THE LARGE QUANTITIES? I MEAN 39.000 PEOPLE THERE'S AN AVERAGE THAT YOU START TO GET A GIST OF. >> YES. >> THAT'S THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF TAKING LARGE-SCALE STUDIES. >> YOU DO START TO GET A GIST FROM THAT. SO YOU CAN GET SOME INFORMATION FROM THAT. I WOULDN'T CALL THAT A GOOD WAY TO MEASURE THE EFFECT OF WATER FLUORIDATION. >> BUT THE STUDY THAT YOU CITED WHERE IT CAME ONE TWO CAVITIES DIFFERENCE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE? >> THAT WAS FROM THE SYSTEMIC REVIEW. SO THAT IS LOOKING AT ALL OF THE STUDIES AND PULLING THE BEST QUALITY EVIDENCE. >> AND WHEN YOU SAY THE BEST QUALITY EVIDENCE, WHO DECIDES WHICH IS THE BEST QUALITY EVIDENCE? >> SO, WHEN THEY GO INTO A SYSTEMIC REVIEW, THEY SAY BEFOREHAND: WHAT IS THE QUESTION GOING TO BE? AS Dr. KEIGAN DESCRIBED, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS A PROPER CONTROL GROUP. >> WELL, NO. I REALIZE YOU LOOK AT THE STUDIES AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE NOT BEING DONE BY Mr. JOE OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. I GATHER THAT. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I'M HAVING DIFFICULTY GRAPPLING WITH THE FACT THAT THE PRO-FLUORIDE AND ANTI-FLUORIDE ARE -- SEEM TO BE USING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT METHODS OF STUDIES. AND I LOOK AT THE NUMBERS THAT THEY'RE DEALING WITH AND GO OKAY, WELL THESE ARE RESPECTABLE PEOPLE. THEY'RE DOING LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THESE STUDIES. WHAT MAKES IT SO THAT YOU WOULD ACCEPT THESE STUDIES AND NOT THESE THAT I CAN GRASP FROM A SIMPLE POLITICAL LAYMAN'S OUTLOOK? YOU LOOK AT THIS AND YOU SAY WELL, HOW YOU CAN SAY THAT A STUDY OVER 39.000 PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY IS NOT A LEGITIMATE STUDY? >> IT IS A LEGITIMATE STUDY BUT NOT AN EFFECTIVE STUDY OF THE EFFECTIVENESS OF WATER FLUORIDATION. >> INTERESTING. OKAY, THANK YOU. >> AMENDERMAN PINCOTT. >> THANK YOU. I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID. IN YOUR OPINION, FLUOROSIS IS CAUSED PRIOR TO ERUPTION? OR IS ESTABLISHED PRIOR TO ERUPTION? TOOTH ERUPTION? >> CORRECT. >> OKAY. AND FLUOROSIS IS CAUSED BY TOOTHPASTE, IN YOUR OPINION. >> OKAY, EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF TOOTHPASTE, YES. >> ALL RIGHT. SO, IF THE TOOTH HASN'T ERUPTED, HOW DOES THE TOOTHPASTE CAUSE FLUOROSIS? >> CHILDREN OF COURSE HAVE PRIMARY TEETH. BUT THE PERMIT TEETH ARE DEVELOPING. AND ERUPTING UNTIL ABOUT AGE 12 OR 13. >> OKAY, SO IT'S -- SO MAYBE -- SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S THROUGH THE INGESTION OF FLUORIDE IN THE TOOTHPASTE? >> YES. >> THAT CAUSED FLUOROSIS IN THE TEETH THAT ARE NOT ACTUALLY IN THE MOUTH YET, BUT THAT THE ONES THAT ARE NOT ERUPTED YET. >> YES. >> OKAY. THERE HAS BEEN TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AND YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT THIS WITH ALDERMAN DEMONG. TALKED ABOUT THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF CAVITIES AND HOW IT'S FLUORIDE ACTUALLY HELPS 85% O OF -- OR DOESN'T HELP 85% OF THE CAVITIES AROUND PITTING. BUT -- BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE APPLIED TOPICALLY FOR THAT, THAT INGESTION OF FLUORIDE DOESN'T WORK ON THAT. SO, IS INGESTED FLUORIDE HELPING SMOOTH OUT THE ENAMEL, LIKE YOU TALKED, BUT ON TEETH THAT ARE NOT ERUPTED YET? >> IT DOES HAVE THAT EFFECT. HAS A MINOR EFFECT, YES. >> OKAY SO IT'S MINOR BUT IT ACTUALLY CAUSES FLUOROSIS ON THE TEETH THAT ARE NOT ERUPTED. >> IN EXCESSIVE DOSES, YES. >> RIGHT. WHICH WE HEARD IS MORE THAN A SAID. >> WELL THAT'S THE RECOMMENDATION IS TO HAVE A GRAIN OF RICE. >> OKAY, A GRAIN OF RICE. GREAT, THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE THANK YOU, Dr. SWART. >> THANK YOU. >> NEXT SPEAKER IS VALLEY FITCH. VALERIE FITCH. >> COUNCILORS. MY NAME IS VALERIE FITCH. AND I BELIEVE THAT CALGARIANS HAVE A RIGHT TO CLEAN, POTABLE, UNMEDICATED WATER. THE PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY IS NOT A VEHICLE TO MASS MEDICATE THE POPULATION. THIS IS AN ETHICAL ISSUE. I HAVE A DEGREE IN PHARMACY. I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT DOSAGE. WITH FLUORIDE IN THE CITY WATER THERE'S NO CONTROL OVER DOSAGE. THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE. IF THE FLUORIDE IS APPLIED TOPICALLY BY THE DENTIST, AT LEAST THERE IS SOME DEGREE OF CONTROL OVER DOSAGE. SO, WHAT ARE THE MOST EFFECTIVE THINGS WE CAN DO TO PREVENT CAVITIES? AND I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT HEALTH IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY. I DON'T THINK THAT ALBERTA HAS A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM. WHAT WE HAVE A HIGH-TECH DIAGNOSTIC AND TREATMENT ILLNESS CARE INDUSTRY. WE SHOULDN'T BE FOCUSING ON THE MAGIC PILL OR THE MAGIC POTION TO PREVENT ILLNESS. IF YOU WOULD VISUALIZE A CLIFF WITH THE HEALTHY PEOPLE AT THE TOP THE CLIFF, AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HEALTH CHALLENGES OR ILLNESS AT THE BOTTOM THE CLIFF AND ASK THEM VERY BASIC QUESTIONS: WHY ARE SO MANY PEOPLE FALLING OFF THE CLIFF? THE SUPPLY IS NOT ONLY TO DENTAL CARRIES, BUT IT APPLIES TO HEART DISEASE, CANCER, OBESITY, TYPE TWO DIABETES. OSTEOPOROSIS. YOU NEED TO ASK THE VERY BASIC QUESTIONS. SO YOU HAVE HEALTH AT THE TOP. YOU HAVE ILLNESS CARE AT THE BOTTOM. YOU HAVE YOUR AMBULANCES, YOUR HOSPITALS, AND THINGS JUST TEND TO GO ROUND AND ROUND THERE. A LOT LIKE THE CALGARY WEIR. SO, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT HEALTH. DO PEOPLE NOT KNOW HOW TO STAY HEALTHY? DO THEY CHOOSE NOT TO STAY HEALTHY? OR ARE THERE SO MANY DISEASES AROUND THAT NOBODY CAN STAY HEALTHY? I THINK WE SHOULD ADDRESS THE FIRST ONE. AND I DON'T THINK PEOPLE KNOW THOU STAY HEALTHY. AND A LOT OF IT COMES -- THESE ARE -- ALL THESE ILLNESSES ARE REALLY BASICALLY LIFESTYLE ILLNESSES. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT LIFESTYLE, YOU NEED TO -- WHEN YOU START TO MAKE LIFESTYLE CHANGES, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT FOOD CHOICE AND NUTRITION. BECAUSE THIS IS ONE OF THE VERY BASIC THINGS THAT YOU NEED TO CHANGE. THE MORE PROCESSED FOOD YOU EAT, THE MORE DISEASE. THE MORE ANIMAL FOOD YOU EAT, THE MORE DISEASE. IF YOU'RE ON A HIGH PROTEIN WESTERN DIET, YOUR BODY -- THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE YOUR BODY IS GOING TO BE ACIDIC. TO COMPENSATE, THE BLOOD WILL DRAW FROM -- DRAW CALCIUM FROM THE BONES IN ORDER TO BALANCE IT OUT. IF YOU CONTINUE TO EAT A HIGH PROTEIN DIET YOU'RE GOING TO STAY IN NEGATIVE CALCIUM BALANCE NO MATTER HOW MUCH CALCIUM YOU TAKE. AND IF YOU THINK THIS IS AFFECTING THE BONES, IT WILL ALSO AFFECT THE TEETH. WHAT ABOUT PROCESSED FOODS? I'M THINKING SPECIFICALLY OF REFINED CARBO HYDRATES. THE WHITE RICE, WHITE FLOUR, THE CAKES, THE COOKIES. THE HIGH FRUCTOSE DRINKS. EVEN THE PURE FRUIT JUICES. THESE ARE CONCENTRATED SUGARS. THESE I THINK ARE MORE IMPORTANT. AND THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED WITH ALL THE POPULATION. AND SPECIFICALLY WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISADVANTAGED IN THE LOW INCOME GROUPS. BECAUSE WHAT'S THE GOOD OF HAVING A CHILD WHO IS DISADVANTAGED, WHO HAS REALLY GOOD TEETH, BUT THEY HAVE OBESITY BECAUSE THEY'RE EATING ALL THE WRONG FOODS? AND IT JUST SETS THEM UP FOR LIFE. SO INSTEAD OF FOCUSING MONEY ON THE MAGIC PILL OR THE MAGIC POTION, IN CITY WATER WHICH I THINK IS TOTALLY RIDICULOUS, WHY DON'T WE LOOK AT NUTRITION? AND SPEND THE MONEY ON THAT. IT WILL HELP THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE. AND IT WILL ALSO HELP THE DISADVANTAGED PEOPLE. AND LOOK AT SOME BASIC STUDIES LIKE COLIN CAMPBELL IN THE CHINA HEALTH STUDY. IN CHINA PEOPLE DON'T -- IN RURAL CHINA PEOPLE DON'T TEND TO MOVE AROUND VERY MUCH. AND THEY COULD DO A REALLY GOOD STUDY ON WHAT THE PEOPLE ATE AND THE DISEASES THAT THEY GOT. AND, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT. SO DIFFERENT RESEARCH. YOU KNOW, LAST TIME I THINK CITY COUNCIL RELIED ON THE AUTHORITIES IN CALGARY. AND I'M REALLY -- WELL, I GUESS I FEEL MORE LIKE THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO BECAUSE I'M REALLY QUITE SUSPICIOUS OF ALL THESE LOCAL AUTHORITIES. BUT THE BASIC THING IS ETHICAL. I THINK IT'S REALLY UNETHICAL TO BE PUTTING THIS FLUORIDE IN CITY WATER. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. YOUR TIMING WAS RIGHT TO THE SECOND ACTUALLY. PRETTY GOOD. ALDERMAN PINCOTT YOU HAVE A QUESTION. >> HI, VAL. >> HI. >> ONE OF THE THINGS I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS AROUND DOSE. AND WE HEARD IT WITH SOME OF THE QUESTIONING AROUND THAT ALDERMAN DEMONG ASKED, YOU KNOW, HOW DO YOU CONTROL THE DOSE WHEN SOMEBODY DRINKS ONE GLASS OF WATER OR 20 GLASSES OF WATER OR ONE OF OUR POLITICAL COLLEAGUES WHO DRINKS 30 A DAY. HE HAS TO DRINK 30 A DAY. YOU CAN -- I MEAN, YOU CAN THINK OF ANY OTHER KIND OF MEDICATION THAT WE MIGHT PRESCRIBE WHERE WE ACTUALLY DON'T BOTHER CONTROLLING THE DOSE? >> I THINK WITH SOME DOSAGE THERE CAN BE A BIT OF A WIDE RANGE. BUT I THINK WITH DRUGS OR CHEMICALS -- WELL AND SUCH IS FLUORIDE, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A CLOSE -- TO MONITOR THE DOSE CLOSELY. >> OKAY. BUT IN THIS ONE YOU -- WE CAN'T. IS THAT YOUR OPINION? >> YOU CAN'T. AND SO YOU SHOULDN'T BE PUTTING IN THE PUBLIC WATER SYSTEM. IT'S NOT A VEHICLE TO MASS MEDICATE THE POPULATION. >> RIGHT. >> BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, AT THE TAP WE CANNOT CONTROL HOW MUCH SOMEBODY GETS. >> THAT'S RIGHT. AND MORE PEOPLE -- AND MORE PEOPLE BECOME INFORMED ABOUT HEALTH I THINK THEY TEND TO DRINK MORE WATER. AND I JUST THINK IT'S TOTALLY WRONG TO BE MASS MEDICATING LIKE THIS. >> OKAY, THANKS. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN MAR. >> I'M STOOD UP AGAIN. THANK YOU. AND SORRY I DIDN'T CATCH YOUR NAME. >> MY NAME IS VALERIE FITCH. >> OKAY, MISS FITCH THANK YOU. I JUST HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS. WHAT I WAS STRUGGLING WHICH WAS TALKING TO Dr. MUSTO EARLIER WAS REALLY OVER THIS ETHICAL QUESTION WHICH YOU'RE BRINGING AGAIN. WHAT ARE YOUR OPTIONS AS SOMEBODY THAT DOES NOT WANT FLUORIDE IN THE WATER? WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT OPTIONS TO LIMIT YOUR EXPOSURE TO IT RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY OF CALGARY? >> WELL, I SUPPOSE I COULD USE BOTTLED WATER. BUT I'M RELUCTANT TO DO THAT FOR VARIOUS REASONS. A FRIEND OF MINE HAD BREAST CANCER. AND I ATTENDED A CONFERENCE IN VANCOUVER AT INSPIRE HEALTH. THEY HAD BANNED ALL THE NUMBER ONE AND THE NUMBER SEVEN CONTAINERS IN THEIR FACILITY. AND, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS SORT OF BEFORE THE PLASTIC WAS CHANGED. BUT EVEN NOW IN CALGARY I KNOW OF A PLACE THAT HAD USED THESE BOTTLES -- THE BOTTLES TO EMPTY OUT THEIR PHOTOGRAPHIC CHEMICALS. AND I AM -- AND YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY RELUCTANT TO USE THESE BOTTLES BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE THEY'VE BEEN. HOW WELL THEY'VE BEEN CLEANED. AND WHAT'S LEECHING OUT OF BOTTLE. SO I THINK THE BEST OPTION IS PROBABLY TO BUY WATER FILTER. BUT, YOU KNOW, THESE CAN BE QUITE EXPENSIVE. AND I THINK IT'S BEYOND THE MEANS OF A LOT OF THE LOW-INCOME PEOPLE. SO THEY REALLY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. YOU KNOW, ANY HAVE TO DRINK THE TAP WATER. MAYBE TRY TO GET SOME BOTTLED WATER. I JUST THINK IT'S VERY UNFAIR FOR THE CITY TO BE HAVING PEOPLE JUMP THROUGH HOOPS IN ORDER TO JUST GET A GLASS OF WATER. >> THANK YOU. THOSE ARE MY QUESTIONS, THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. SEEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS MISS FITCH THANKS FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. NEXT SPEAKER. NIKKI McKINN. >> GOOD ARCH. I'M HERE TODAY -- GOOD AFTERNOON. I'M HERE TODAY AS A GRANDMOTHER WHO WANTS HER GRANDCHILDREN TO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF FLUORIDATED WATER. WHEN I HEARD THAT IT WAS AT RISK I HAD TO COME TO BE A VOICE FOR PROPONENTS. BECAUSE I KNEW WOULD YOU HEAR FROM THE OTHER SIDE. AND WE'VE HEARD TODAY THAT YOU'VE HAD MANY ELECTRONIC MESSAGES, IF THEY'RE NOT HERE IN PERSON, FROM THE OTHER SIDE. SO I'M HERE TODAY TO TELL YOU THAT ON THE BASIS OF THE ENDORSEMENTS OF THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT I TRUST FOR MY MEDICAL INFORMATION, AND EVERYTHING FROM THE CDC TO THE CANADIAN PEDIATRIC SOCIETY, CANADIAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, I AM CONFIDENT THAT AT THE REGULATED RATE OF 0.7 PARTS PER MILLION FLUORIDATION IS SAFE AND WILL PROTECT MY GRANDCHILDREN'S TEETH. AS OUR VERY FIRST SPEAKER THIS MORNING SAID: MY GRANDCHILDREN ARE MY MOST PRECIOUS THING AND I WOULD NOT WANT TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD CAUSE THEM ANY HARM. I'M SPEAKING TODAY AS SOMEONE WHO HAD A SUBSTANTIAL DENTAL DECAY AS A CHILD. I MISSED LOTS OF SCHOOL FOR DENTAL APPOINTMENTS. AND I'M NOW FACED WITH FILLINGS THAT NEED TO BE REPLACED. AND A MOUTHFUL OF SILVER AND GOLD. I'D RATHER IT WAS ON MY WRIST. MY MOTHER TOLD ME THAT OUR DENTIST SAID BACK IN THE '30s THAT IF -- IN THE 50s THAT IF WE HAD WATER FLUORIDATION I WOULD NOT BE IN THIS SITUATION. NOW IN MY SENIOR YEARS I REALIZE WHY CAVITY-FREE TEETH IN CHILDHOOD ARE IMPORTANT. BECAUSE THEY'RE THE BEST TEETH TO TAKE US INTO OUR LATER YEARS. I GAVE MY OWN THREE CHILDREN WHO WERE RAISED IN CALGARY IN THE '70s AND '80s FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENTS. THOSE FLUORIDE DROPS THAT I ADDED TO THEIR JUICE, AS DID MANY OF MY FRIENDS WITH THEIR CHILDREN. THIS WAS A LONG-TERM UNDERTAKING OVER MANY YEARS. TWELVE YEARS FOR EACH OF THOSE CHILDREN. THAT REQUIRED A HUGE COMMITMENT TO OBTAIN THE FLUORIDE -- OBTAIN THE SUPPLEMENTS. TO USE THEM REGULARLY. TO ENSURE THAT THE NUMBER OF DROPS WAS EXACT. AND TO MAKE SURE MY CHILDREN DRANK THEIR JUICE. ALTHOUGH I REALLY WAS A HIGHLY MOTIVATED MOTHER IN THIS AREA, I FREQUENTLY FELL OFF THE WAGON. AND MY CHILDREN HAD INCONSISTENT ACCESS TO SUPPLEMENTAL FLUORIDE. I REGRET THAT THEY WERE NOT PRIVILEGED AS THEIR COUSINS WERE IN EDMONTON WHERE THERE WAS FLUORIDATION TO HAVE HAD THAT BENEFIT. AND THEIR COUSINS ALL HAVE NO CAVITIES AND BEAUTIFUL TEETH. IDEALLY I WOULD ASK THIS COMMITTEE AND COUNCIL TO SUPPORT FLUORIDATION FOR MY GRANDCHILDREN. AND ALL CALGARY CHILDREN WHO WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GROW UP WITHOUT ANY CAVITIES. WHILE THIS MAY BE IDEALISTIC, I WOULD THEN ASK THAT THIS COUNCIL REMAIN OPEN MINDED AND ESTABLISH THE EXPERT PANEL THAT WE'VE HEARD ABOUT EARLIER TODAY. FLUORIDATION IS OUR BEST, UNIVERSAL, SAFE AND EFFECTIVE TOOL FOR PROJECTING CAVITIES. TO PROTECT OUR CHILDREN FROM CAVITIES. THANKS VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU. ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN DEMONG? >> WHERE DID I PUT IT? THIS IS MORE IN A FECECIOUS MATTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE, BUT IN 1950, 19.223 DENTISTS ALSO ADVISED TO YOU SMOKE VICEROY CIGARETTES. I'M JUST SAYING THAT AS TIME GOES BY THINGS CHANGE. SO -- THAT WAS REALLY ALL. IT WASN'T -- SORRY, THAT WAS IMPROPER OF ME. THAT WASN'T A QUESTION. I APOLOGIZE. >> IF I CAN COMMENT ON THAT, THOUGH, I THINK THAT WE -- WE'VE HEARD TODAY OF THE QUALITY OF PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING THE INVESTIGATION WHO ARE REVIEWING DOING THE SYSTEMIC REVIEWS. AND I STILL FEEL THAT THEY ARE BETTER EQUIPPED TO MAKE THOSE JUDGMENTS. COMING FROM A POSITION OF DOING NO HARM THAN I AM AS A LAY PERSON. >> THANK YOU. DO YOU WANT TO WAIT. ONE MORE QUESTION. ALDERMAN STEVENSON. >> I WAS INTERESTED IN YOUR COMMENT ABOUT HOW MUCH -- HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO MAKE SURE YOUR KID GOT THE PROPER DOSE O OF -- HOW DID YOU MEAN -- HUE TO MAKE SURE THEY GOT THE RIGHT AMOUNT EVERY DAY? >> EXACTLY. HUE TO SQUEEZE IT OUT OF THIS LITTLE BOTTLE AND YOU HAD TO COUNT THE DROPS. AND THE NUMBER OF NUMBER OF DROPS CHANGED ACCORDING TO THE AGE OF THE CHILD. BELIEVE ME, IF YOU WERE IN A HURRY IN THE MORNING, A LITTLE EXTRA SQUIRT. >> SO TELL ME HOW PEOPLE TODAY ARE ABLE TO GET THAT RIGHT AMOUNT. >> I DON'T KNOW -- I'M NOT AWARE OF WHERE THEY'RE USING FLUORIDE SUPPLEMENTS ANYMORE. THEY'RE NOT IN CALGARY. >> I'M TALKING ABOUT FROM OUR WATER. HOW WOULD A PARENT KNOW TODAY THAT THEIR CHILD IS GETTING EXACT AMOUNT. >> WELL I KNOW THAT IT'S WELL -- IT WOULD BE WELL CONTROLLED AT .7 PARTS PER MILLION. AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT .7 PARTS PER MILLION IS A SAFE AND EFFECTIVE DOSE. >> I'M FULLY AWARE THAT THAT'S WHAT'S IN THE WATER. AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT THEY'RE REGULATING THAT TOO. WHAT I'M ASK YOU IS HOW WOULD A PARENT MAKE SURE THEIR CHILD GOT THE RIGHT AMOUNT? BECAUSE ALL WE KNOW IS .7 IN THE WATER. BUT HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THE CHILD GETS THE RIGHT AMOUNT NOW? >> I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION. I THINK. AND THAT IS HOW ARE WE MAKING SURE THAT THERE IS SUFFICIENT AND NOT TOO MUCH FLUORIDE THAT THEY'RE DRINKING TO GET THAT REGULATED? >> RIGHT. >> WELL, I THINK THE STUDIES THAT INDICATE THAT FLUORIDE AT THE REGULATED LEVEL IS IN FACT REDUCING DECAY, IS INDICATING THAT IT IS EFFECTIVE. AND SO PEOPLE MUST BE GETTING -- CHILDREN MUST BE GETTING ADEQUATE FLUORIDE THROUGH THE WATER SYSTEM. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. >> ALDERMAN MAR YOU HAVE A QUESTION? >> I DO. AND I THINK IT WAS -- ALDERMAN STEVENSON WAS TRYING TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU WERE SUGGESTING BACK IN YOUR CHILDREN'S TIME THAT YOU WERE USING A MEASURING DROPPER. WHERE YOU COULD CONTROL BY OPTING IN AT YOUR OWN CHOICE AS A MUCH PARENT TO DETERMINE HOW MUCH FLUORIDE YOU WERE GIVING YOUR CHILD. BUT TODAY I DON'T KNOW IF MY DAUGHTER IS SITTING AT THE WATER FOUNTAIN RIGHT NOW DRINKING A LITRE AND A HALF OF WATER, PLUS THE FACT THAT THE WATER SHE WOULD DRINK AT HOME AND DA, DA, DA, DA. SO THE POINT IS THAT WE NOW HAVE NO CONTROL OVER HOW MUCH YOU'RE CONSUMING, BASED ON, WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THESE CHILDREN ARE CONSUMING AT ANY GIVEN TIME. YOU WERE SAYING THAT YOU COULD CONTROL AS THREE DROPS PER GLASS OF WATER, YOU WOULD GIVE IT ONCE A DAY, MOVE ON. NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVING X AMOUNT OF PARTS PER MILLION, .7 PARTS PER MILLION IN OUR WATER. AND IF YOU'RE DRINKING LET'S SAY THREE CUPS OF WATER A DAY AS A CHILD AND I'M DRINKING THREE CUPS OF WATER AS AN ADULT, THE DOSE IS NOT PROPORTIONATE. SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO DETERMINE IS, IS THERE A WAY THAT PEOPLE CAN MEASURE AND CONTROL HOW MUCH IS BEING CONSUMED? >> I THINK THAT'S A QUESTION THAT WOULD DEPEND ON WHAT THE TOLERABLE RANGE IS. AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT WITH FLUORIDATION AND THE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT WE'RE DRINKING WE'RE WITHIN THE TOLERABLE RANGE FOR THE AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE. THE POINT I WAS WANTING TO MAKE ABOUT THE FLUORIDE DROPS IS THAT IT'S NOT A GOOD ALTERNATIVE. BECAUSE IT REALLY TAKES A HIGH LEVEL OF COMPLIANCE. AND PEOPLE -- IF WE'RE THINKING, NOT OF MY GRANDCHILDREN, BUT OF DISADVANTAGED CHILDREN TO HAVE PARENTS THAT WOULD BE ABLE, WILLING, CAPABLE EVER DOING THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE AN OPTION. >> THANK YOU. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. >> THANK YOU. MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE I THINK IT'S UNFAIR TO ASK A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC QUESTIONS THAT RELATE TO THINGS LIKE THAT. YOU MIGHT WANT TO SAVE IT FOR A COUPLE DOCTORS OR EXPERTS TO COME UP. THEY MIGHT HAVE A BETTER ANSWER. THE NEXT PERSON ON MY LIST IF I PRONOUNCE THE NAME RIGHT IS NICK ETKUS. >> GOOD AFTERNOON, HONOURABLE COUNCIL MEMBERS. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. MY NAME IS NICK ECHES. I'M A PHYSICIAN DOING SPECIALTY TRAINING IN INTERNAL MEDICINE. I'M HERE AS AN INDIVIDUAL AND I'M NOT REPRESENTING ANY ORGANIZATION. TODAY I'D LIKE TO SHARE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS MAKE DECISIONS REGARDING HEALTH. AND ESSENTIALLY THAT DECISIONS MADE BY HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS DERIVE THEIR FOUNDATIONATIONS FROM TWO MAIN S AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING TODAY. SCIENCE AND ETHICS. SO, SCIENCE IN ITS ESSENCE IS THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH. BEYOND OPINION, BEYOND CONJECTURE, BEYOND INTUITION, BEYOND BELIEF. SCIENCE ATTEMPTS TO SHOW IN A RELIABLE, REPRODUCIBLE FORM WHAT WE CAN REALLY KNOW ABOUT THE UNIVERSE IN WHICH WE LIVE. HOWEVER, SCIENCE IS A WORLD OF PROBABILITY. NOTHING CAN EVER BE KNOWN FOR SURE BECAUSE SCIENTISTS ARE ALWAYS OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT ANOTHER EXPERIMENT WILL SOME DAY DISPROVE WHAT IS CURRENTLY THOUGHT TO BE TRUE. SCIENCE IS A PART OF MEDICINE. WHAT CAN WE KNOW ABOUT WHAT CAUSES A DISEASE? WHAT CAN WE KNOW ABOUT WHAT MAKES IT BETTER? HOWEVER, THE LIMITS OF OUR KNOWLEDGE IN SCIENCE ARE ALSO THE LIMITS OF OUR KNOWLEDGE IN MEDICINE. NOTHING CAN BE KNOWN FOR SURE. BUT THE MORE STUDIES THAT THERE ARE, THE MORE CAREFULLY THAT THOSE STUDIES ARE DONE. AND THE MORE CONSISTENT THE RESULTS ARE THE MORE WE CAN BE SURE THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN ALL LIKELIHOOD REPRESENTS THE TRUTH. THE SECOND COMPONENT OF MEDICAL DECISION MAKING CONCERNS ETHICS. ESSENTIALLY: WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO? SO LOOKING AT FLUORIDATION THERE'S TWO QUESTIONS WE NEED TO ANSWER. NUMBER ONE: WHAT IS THE TRUTH TO THE BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE REGARDING THE BENEFITS AND THE RISKS OF FLUORIDATION? DO THESE BENEFITS OUTWEIGH THE RISKS? AND NUMBER TWO: IS FLUORIDATING THE WATER ETHICAL? IS IT THE RIGHT THING TO DO? TO ANSWER QUESTION NUMBER ONE: WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT WATER FLUORIDATION, WE MUST LOOK TO THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE. TWO RECENT SYSTEMIC REVIEWS, ONE COMMISSIONED BY GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM IN THE YEAR 2000, AND THE OTHER COMMISSIONED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA IN THE YEAR 2007 COMPILE THE RESULTS OF ALL OF THE MOST CAREFULLY CONTROLLED STUDIES. IN SHORT, THEY SUGGEST THAT IT'S LIKELY THAT FLUORIDATING THE WATER IS BENEFICIAL IN PREVENTING DENTAL CARRIES. AND UNLIKELY THAT IT CAUSES SIGNIFICANT HARM. IT IS LIKELY THAT THE BENEFITS OF FLUORIDATING THE WATER OUTWEIGH THE RISKS. AND IT'S ALSO LIKELY THAT A DECISION TO REMOVE FLUORIDE FROM THE WATER WOULD CAUSE HARM. THIS IS THE MOST CERTAIN THAT ANYBODY CAN BE ABOUT THE TRUTH OF WATER FLUORIDATION. AND I'D SUGGEST BEING VERY CAUTIOUS WHEN LISTENING TO ANYBODY WHO STATES THEIR CASE MORE STRONGLY THAN THAT. THIS ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THE BEST KNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE TO US TODAY. ANSWERING ETHICAL QUESTION IS MORE COMPLICATED. AS ARE MOST ISSUES OF RIGHT VERSUS WRONG. HOWEVER, IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE ETHICAL QUESTION MUST TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT WATER FLUORIDATION. I'LL USE A CLEAR EXAMPLE. WE KNOW THAT IT'S LIKELY THAT CAR BRAKES SAVE LIVES. AND UNLIKELY THAT THEY CAUSE ANYBODY SIGNIFICANT HARM. SO, IT IS CONSIDERED ETHICAL TO REQUIRE EVERYONE TO HAVE BRAKES ON THEIR CARS. EVEN THOUGH THAT RESTRICTS THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD CHOOSE NOT TO OUTFIT THEIR CARS WITH BRAKES. WE ALSO KNOW THAT IT'S ALMOST CERTAINLY MORE COST EFFECTIVE TO OUTFIT CARS WITH BRAKES THAN IT WOULD BE TO PAY FOR AWFUL ASSOCIATED HEALTH CARE AND AUTOMOBILE REPAIR COSTS THAT WOULD GO ALONG WITH NOT HAVING BRAKES. SIMILARLY, WE KNOW IT'S LIKELY THAT WATER FLUORIDATION PREVENTS DENTAL CARRIES. AND UNLIKELY THAT IT CAUSES SIGNIFICANT HARM. THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE FROM Dr. JOHN HARRIS, AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED EXPERT IN MEDICAL ETHICS. HE STATES: WE SHOULD NOT ASK: ARE WE ENTITLED TO IMPOSE FLUORIDATION ON THE UNWILLING PEOPLE, BUT ARE THE UNWILLING PEOPLE ENTITLED TO IMPOSE THE RISKS, DAMAGE, AND COSTS OF FAILURE TO FLUORIDATE ON THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE? END QUOTE. SHOULD YOUR NEIGHBOUR HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE THE BRAKES OFF OF HIS CAR? IN SUMMARY, NUMBER ONE: WHAT IS THE TRUTH? THE TRUTH IS THAT THE BENEFITS OF FLUORIDE LIKELY OUTWEIGH THE RISKS. NUMBER TWO, IS IT ETHICALLY RESPONSIBLE TO FLUORIDATE THE WATER? BASED ON EVERYTHING WE CURRENTLY KNOW ABOUT FLUORIDE, YES. IT IS. I HOPE THAT THIS HAS HELPED CLARIFY THE WAY HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS MAKE DECISIONS AND WILL HELP EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHY HEALTH CANADA, THE CANADIAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION, THE CANADIAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, AND THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SUPPORT FLUORIDATION AS DO OUR OWN MEDICAL OFFICERS OF HEALTH. AND OUR OWN DENTISTS. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION. >> THANK YOU. ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN CARRA. >> THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. JUST BECAUSE YOU USED THE METAPHOR, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING. THE CENTRE FOR DISEASE CONTROL IN THE UNITED STATES POINTS TO ADULT OBESITY AS A PANDEMIC ON A SCALE THAT, YOU KNOW, BEGGARS -- THE PANDEMICS THAT THE CDC WAS SET UP TO ADDRESS: POLIO AND TIE TYPHOID. AND DIRECTLY CONNECTS AUTOMOBILE DEPENDENCY AND THE OBESITY ASSOCIATED WITH SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME IN YOUR CAR AND NOT OUGH TIME WALKING, WITH THAT -- WITH, YOU KNOW, THE HEART DISEASE AND THE DIABETES ASSOCIATED WITH ADULT OBESITY. WHAT THESE ARE ARE HUGE EXTERNALITIES. THAT FLOAT BACK TO THE QUESTION OF: HOW DO WE MAKE CARS SAFER FOR PEOPLE TO DRIVE? WE PUT BRAKES ON THEM. PUTTING BRAKES ON CARS, YOU KNOW, MAKES IT MORE -- MAKES IT EASIER FOR US TO RATIONALIZE USING CARS AS A PRIMARY MODE OF TRANSPORTATION WHICH AT THE END OF THE DAY, AFTER A 70-YEAR EXPERIMENT IN ABANDONING HUMAN HABITAT CONSTRUCTION AND ABANDONING AUTOMOBILE HABITAT CONSTRUCTION AS MAYBE HAVING EXTERNALITIES THAT WE DIDN'T SEE. SO I THINK IT'S LIKELY THAT OUR UNDERSTANDING OF FLUORIDE RIGHT NOW DOESN'T PREVENT THAT. BUT ARE WE -- HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT WE ARE EXAMINING THE FULL SUITE OF POTENTIAL EXTERNALITIES THAT COME FROM THIS? AND I GUESS THAT'S WHAT I'D LIKE TO PUT OUT THERE. WE'RE MIXING OUR METAPHORS LIKE MAD PEOPLE HERE, BUT THE REALITY IS, IT COMES DOWN TO A QUESTION OF: PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLES. AND HOW MUCH HAVE THESE STUDIES, THESE SORT OF, LIKE, METASTUDIES THAT HAVE LOOKED AT ALL OF THE INFORMATION REALLY EXPLORED QUESTIONS OF EXTERNALITY? >> SO, I THINK -- ONE THING THAT IS TRUE OF ANYTHING IS THERE ARE AN INFINITE NUMBER OF VARIABLES IN THE WORLD. AND AN INFINITE NUMBER OF VARIABLES ESSENTIALLY AFFECTING HEALTH. AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO -- I MEAN, THE FIELD OF MEDICINE IS VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE BODY AS A SYSTEM HAS, YOU KNOW, MILLIONS OF VARIABLES. AND SO THE DIFFICULTY IN SCIENCE IS DOING OUR BEST TO ISOLATE THOSE VARIABLES. AND THE BEST TO MEASURE THE RELEVANT OUTCOMES. AND I THINK THAT IF THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, A LARGE NUMBER OF SIGNIFICANTLY ADVERSE EVENTS OCCURRING FROM FLUORIDE, THAT LIKELY WOULD HAVE BORNE ITSELF OUT IN THE MEDICAL LITERATURE TO THIS POINT. HOWEVER, YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN. YOU CAN MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT IF PEOPLE HAVE BETTER TEETH THEY'RE GOING TO EAT MORE AND BECOME MORROW BEES. BUT, I MEAN, AGAIN -- BECOME MORE OBESE. BUT TO ACTUALLY DRAW THE CONNECTION THEREFORE BETWEEN MORE FLUORIDE AND OBESITY, WOULD YOU HAVE TO MAKE THAT CONNECTION. BECAUSE THERE COULD BE A LOT OF OTHER REASONS WHY PEOPLE IN A CERTAIN AREA WOULD BE BECOMING OBESE. >> NO, FORGIVE ME. WHAT I WAS DRAWING THE CONNECTION BETWEEN WAS, WE PUT BRAKES ON CARS. SO WE CONTINUALLY THINK THAT CARS ARE A GOOD WAY TO GET AROUND. IF WE HAD NEVER PUT BRAKES ON CARS, WE MAY MAYBE WOULD HAVE SAID THIS ISN'T A GOOD WAY TO GET AROUND. LET'S ORGANIZE OUR LIVING ARRANGEMENT DIFFERENTLY. I'M USING YOUR METAPHOR. I THINK WE'RE MIXING OUR METAPHORS CRAZILY HERE. SO I APOLOGIZE. I GUESS IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF -- MY QUESTION JUST GETS BACK TO EXTERNALITIES. LIKE, DO WE UNDERSTAND -- WE'RE WEATHER TRYING TO ISOLATE VARIABLES. BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE PROBLEMS OF ORGANIZED COMPLEXITY. THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, DIFFICULT TO PULL OUT WHEN WE'RE USING STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. >> AND I WOULD AGREE AND SAY THE DIFFICULTY IS THE NOT FLUORIDATING WATER. THE DECISION TO STOP FLUORIDATING WATER COULD HAVE JUST AS MANY UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES THAT AS THE DECISION TO FLUORIDATE. THE POINT BEING THAT WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT ANY OF THOSE ARE. BUT BASED ON WHAT WE DO KNOW, THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGH THE RISKS. AND THAT'S THE WAY PEOPLE MAKE DECISIONS EVERYDAY. IS BASED ON WHAT WE DO KNOW. DOT BENEFITS OUTWEIGH THE RISKS? YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S HOW PEOPLE GO ABOUT MAKING DECISION EVERYDAY. MY ARGUMENT IS BASED ON THE MEDICAL LITERATURE AND BASED ON, YOU KNOW, MEDICAL ETHICS THAT THIS WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, AN INTERVENTION THAT WOULD BE JUSTIFIED ON THE POPULATION LEVEL. >> THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN KEATING. >> THANK YOU, CHAIR. ON THAT NOTE I'M AWFULLY GLAD THAT WE DON'T PUT FLUORIDE ON CARS AND HOPE IT TRANSFERS. BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A LITTLE DIFFICULT. BUT I'M NOT QUITE SURE HOW THAT GOT IN THERE, BUT THAT'S OKAY. UNFORTUNATELY WE DON'T HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF COMING BACK AND ASKING ANOTHER QUESTION FROM A COMMENT THAT WE'VE HEARD THAT WE'VE ALREADY QUESTIONED ON. SO I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WAS SAID EARLIER. TALKING ABOUT SALIVA IN THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO GET THE FLUORIDE BATHING THE TEETH FROM YOUR SALIVA. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? >> I DON'T KNOW THE PRECISE MOLECULAR MECHANISMS, NOT TO BE FECECIOUS AT ALL. BUT ESSENTIALLY, I THINK THAT YEAH THE FLUORIDE IS ABSORBED SYSTEMICALLY AND THEN HE IS CONCRETED IN YOUR A -- AND THEN SECRETED IN YOUR A LIE VAVMENT. >> THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR. >> THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING. >> SO ABSORBED BY YOUR BODY AND THEN GIVEN OFF. SO WE CAN ASSUME THERE IS FLUORIDE IN SWEAT AND ALL THOSE SORTS OF THINGS AT THE SAME TIME, IS THAT CORRECT? >> I DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE. IF I HAD TO HAZARD I A GUESS WOULD I SAY POSSIBLY BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> THANK YOU. I WANTED TO GET BACK TO THE QUESTION OF HOW MUCH FLUORIDE IS BEING INGESTED. AND IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT LITTLE PEOPLE, CHILDREN, INFANTS, NEED LESS FLUORIDE THAN ADULTS. OR CAN TOLERATE LESS FLUORIDE. AND I GUESS THAT'S PART OF MY QUESTION. BUT AS -- HOW MUCH WATER DO WE HAVE TO DRINK BEFORE WE GET TO A TOXIC LEVEL? OF FLUORIDE? DO YOU KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT? >> SO, IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, FLUORIDE TOXICITY WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO SEE SERIOUS ADVERSE EVENTS FROM FLUORIDE, YOU KNOW, BEYOND COSMETIC CONCERNS, I'M NOT SURE A IF THAT LEVEL EXISTS OR B WHAT, IT IS. IN TERMS OF CONTROLLING THE DOSE OF FLUORIDE -- SO YOU COULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, SMALLER PEOPLE ALSO PROBABLY DRINK LESS WATER. THE ARGUMENT THAT WOULD I MAKE ABOUT DOSAGE IS ACTUALLY ONE THAT NOT FLUORIDATING THE WATER DOES NOT GIVE YOU ANYMORE CONTROL OVER DOSAGE THAN FLUORIDATING IT DOES. BECAUSE, I MEAN, ESSENTIALLY THERE IS FLUORIDE THAT NATURALLY OCCURS IN THE WATER. IT'S BEEN STATED IT VARIES BASED ON THE SEASON. IN FACT I THINK WOULD YOU HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME KNOWING HOW MUCH FLUORIDE WAS GOING INTO YOUR BODY IF THE DOSAGE WAS -- IF THE CONCENTRATION OF FLUORIDE IN THE WATER WAS UNCONTROLLED. BECAUSE ON ANY GIVEN DAY YOU'D HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA HOW MUCH FLUORIDE IS IN THE WATER. AND SO REALLY IF IT'S A CONCERN, IF THE JUDGMENT IS THAT FLUORIDE IS A MEDICATION AND NOT, YOU KNOW, JUST A NATURALLY OCCURRING SUBSTANCE THAT WE WANT TO ALTER THE LEVELS OF, THEN IF YOU'RE APPROACHING THE POLICY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, THEN THE ETHICAL THING TO DO WOULD BE TO ACTUALLY PAY MONEY TO REMOVE ALL OF THE FLUORIDE FROM THE WATER. SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH THEY'RE GETTING. BUT THAT ON A POPULATION LEVEL WOULD POSSIBLY PROBABLY NOT BE VERY GOOD FOR THE HEALTH OF ANYBODY. AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL STUDIES THAT TALK ABOUT WHERE FLUORIDE COMES FROM, THEY CAME FROM I THINK COLORADO. AND THE DOSAGE OF -- SORRY, THE CONCENTRATION OF FLUORIDE IN THE WATER THERE WAS 3-4 PARTS PER MILLION. OR SOMETHING QUITE HIGH. AND THE REASON A DENTIST FIRST NOTICED IT WAS BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE GETTING FLUOROSIS AT THAT HIGH LEVEL. BUT IT'S INTERESTING THEN, BECAUSE IF YOU WENT T TO THOSE PEOPLE AND IT'S KIND OF THE REVERSE OF THE ARGUMENT YOU SEE HERE. THOSE PEOPLE ARE SAYING HEY, WE'RE GETTING FLUOROSIS THE SAME WAY PEOPLE HERE ARE SAYING HEY, WE GET CAVITIES. THEN THEY SAY WELL, MAYBE WE SHOULD REDUCE THE LEVELS OF FLUORIDE IN OUR WATER SO PEOPLE DON'T GET FLUOROSIS. BUT THEN THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T HAVE FLUOROSIS WILL SAY THEN WE'RE GOING TO DEVELOP CAVITIES. GENT REVERSE. AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING THAT NATURALLY OCCURS IN THE WATER. SO WHAT STUDIES HAVE SHOWN US IS THERE'S A LEVEL WE CAN OPTIMIZE IN TERMS OF CAVITIES VERSUS FLUOROSIS. SO IF HUE A COMMUNITY THAT HAD A BUNCH OF FLUORIDE IN THE WATER THAT WAS NATURALLY OCCURRING, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE DECISION TO ACTUALLY BRING FLUORIDE DOWN ETHICALLY WOULD PROBABLY BE VERY SIMILAR TO THE DECISION WE'RE LOOKING AT TODAY IN TERMS OF OPTIMIZING A DOSE OF FLUORIDE IN THE WATER. >> THAT'S VERY INTERESTING. THANK YOU. >> THANKS. ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> WHEN YOU REFER TO ETHICS, WHERE DOES THE BURDEN OF PROOF LIE? UPON THOSE THAT ADVOCATE THE ACTIVITY? OR THOSE WHO OPPOSE IT? BASED ON THOSE PRINCIPLES. >> I THINK IT LIES WITH BOTH. I THINK ESSENTIALLY IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE DOING THE SCIENCE ARE ETHICAL ABOUT THE WAY THAT'S CONDUCTED. SO IT'S VERY, FOR EXAMPLE, IF THERE WERE TO BE A FACULTY OF MEDICINE COMMITTEE THAT WAS APPOINTED TO LOOK AT THIS ISSUE, IT'S THE BURDEN OF ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY LIES ON THEM TO DOT BEST JOB THAT THEY CAN WITH THE TRAINING THAT THEY HAVE TO ARRIVE AT THE ANSWER THAT'S CLOSEST TO THE TRUTH. AND THEN IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE POLICY MAKERS TO TAKE THAT AND WEIGH IT AGAINST EVERYTHING ELSE, INCLUDING PUBLIC OPINION. INCLUDING COST. INCLUDING EVERYTHING ELSE. AND COME TO A DECISION. AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REST RESPONSIBILITY ON ONE PARTY OR THE OTHER. I THINK EVERYBODY HAS THE -- ESPECIALLY INVOLVED IN -- IN PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS HAT THE RESPONSIBILITY TO BEHAVE ETHICALLY IN ALL ASPECTS WHAT THEY DO. AND THIS IS, AGAIN, LIKE MOST THINGS IN OUR SOCIETY, THIS IS KIND OF MULTIFACTORIAL. SO EVERYBODY HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY. >> OKAY, SO ONCE THE ACTIVITY IS DONE, PER SE, FLOOR IDES IN THE WATER, DOES -- FLUORIDES IN THE WATER, DOES THE BURDEN OF PROOF LIE WITH THOSE WHO ADVOCATE REMOVING IT OR THOSE THAT HAVE IT IN TO CONTINUE TO PROVE THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT QUANTITY. THAT IT IS STILL DOING WHAT IT'S INTENDED TO DO. OR THE REVERSE? >> SO, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR -- I MEAN IN GENERAL IN A DEMOCRACY I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY TO ADVOCATE FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE. >> COURSE. AND THIS IS JUST YOUR OPINION. I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT, BUT I'M JUST LOOKING FOR YOUR OPINION. YOUR RE-- YOU'RE A RESEARCHER. YOU'VE COMMENTED ON THE ETHICS. AND I'M JUST WONDERING, FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, WHERE DOES THAT BURDEN OF PROOF LIE? WITH THE PEOPLE THAT SAID IT SHOULD BE THERE, WE HAVE TO CONTINUE HAVING IT THERE AND THESE ARE THE REASONS? OR NOW THAT IT'S IN THERE DO THEY GET TO RELAX SOMEWHAT AND WAIT FOR THE OTHER SIDE TO SAY: NO, THESE ARE THE REASONS IT HAS TO COME OUT? >> SO, I'D LIKE TO CLARIFY QUICKLY, I'M NOT A RESEARCHER -- >> I APOLOGIZE. >> NO, THAT'S OKAY. JUST FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY. I GUESS WHAT I WAS GETTING TO WITH THE WHOLE, EVERYBODY NEEDS TO ADVOCATE FOR THEMSELVES IN A DEMOCRACY WAS NOT TO BRUSH THE QUESTION OFF. IT WAS REALLY TO SAY THAT REALLY IT'S UP TO EVERYBODY TO BE COGNIZANT OF OUR ONGOING, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO WE TAKE FOR GRANTED IN SOCIETY THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE RIGHT THING? THERE'S TONS OF THINGS THAT WE DO NOW THAT MIGHT BE THE RIGHT -- MAYBE IT'S WRONG TO HAVE CARS THAT KIND OF THING. BUT I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY -- IT'S ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT THAT EVERYBODY RAIS REMAIN VIGILANT. AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT SCIENTISTS ARE OFTEN -- THE WHOLE IDEA BEHIND SCIENCE IS TO BE CRITICAL OF WHAT'S ALREADY KNOWN. I MEAN, IF YOU DO A VERY, VERY WELL DESIGNED STUDY THAT SAYS HEY, YOU KNOW, THE TRUTH OF WHAT WE THOUGHT BEFORE IS NOT TRUE, IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE LOOKED AT. I MEAN AND TO BRING BACK THE EXAMPLE OF SMOKING IN THE 1950s, I MEAN IF WE HADN'T -- IF SOMEONE HADN'T SAID HEY, MAYBE SMOKING IS A BAD THING. MAYBE IT'S CAUSING THESE CANCERS, THEN NOTHING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. AND IF -- AGAIN IF POLICY MAKERS, IF PEOPLE HADN'T LISTENED TO THAT I MEAN WHO KNOWS WHERE WE'D BE TODAY. SO I THINK IT LIES WITH BOTH PARTIES. AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT AGAIN, IN THIS SITUATION, IT'S NOT EVEN NECESSARILY -- I MEAN, IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY BLACK AND WHITE KIND OF FLUORIDE OR NO FLUORIDE. BECAUSE AGAIN, FLUORIDE OCCURS SNARLLY IN THE WATER SO IT'S A LEVEL ISSUE. AND I THINK THAT GETS A LITTLE BIT LOST IN THE DEBATE. AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING HEY, LIKE WE DON'T WANT FLUORIDATION. YOU SAY WELL, THE NORMAL LEVEL IS .3 OR MILLION 4. SO WE ARE AGRICULTURE ADDING MILLION 3 OR MILLION 4 TO THAT AND CREATING .7. SO I MEAN YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN. BUT I THINK THE RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH EVERYBODY. AND ESPECIALLY, YEAH, IF YOU ADVOCATE FOR HAVING IT AT A LEVEL OF. 7 AND NEW DATA COMES OUT THAT IS STRONG DATA AND SAYS HEY THAT'S NOT GOOD, THEN I THINK MOST -- ESPECIALLY THE MEDICAL AND DENTAL COMMUNITY WOULD BE THE FIRST PEOPLE TO SAY HEY, WHOA, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THIS AGAIN AND FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON. >> THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE JOINING THIS DISCUSSION. THIS IS VERY HEALTHY DISCUSSION AND SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO DO ON A REGULAR BASIS. I CAN'T AGREE WITH YOUR CAR BRAKES ANALOGY. BECAUSE IF WE DIDN'T HAVE BRAKES I THINK WE WOULD HAVE MAYHEM. MAYBE THAT'S WHAT MY COLLEAGUE TO MY LEFT WOULD LIKE. BUT THE -- MY QUESTION IS ABOUT THE ETHICS OF DELIVERING A SUBSTANCE THROUGH THE WATER SUPPLY. AND THAT SEEMS TO BE OFTEN WHERE THIS DISCUSSION COMES DOWN. IS WATER IS NECESSARY FOR LIFE. WE'VE GOT OTHER -- I MEAN, THE REFERENCE TO SALT OR MILK OR FORTIFIED CEREALS COMES UP. BUT PEOPLE DO HAVE CHOICE WITH THAT. BUT IF WATER IS SUCH A GOOD DELIVERY SYSTEM, FOR CERTAIN SUBSTANCES, WE'VE BEEN HEARING A LOT ABOUT VITAMIN D SPECIFICALLY CANADIANS AND THEIR LACK OF SUNLIGHT. SHOULD WE BE LOOKING AT OTHER -- AND I'M NOT BEING FECECIOUS. I'M ASKING THAT QUESTION. I'M WONDERING WHY WE STOPPED AT THIS SUBSTANCE, AND NOT MOVED ON TO OTHERS AS A DELIVERY STHOD FOR THINGS THAT WE -- DELIVERY METHOD FOR THINGS THAT WE ALL NEED? >> YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN. I THINK SOME OF THE ETHICAL ISSUES REGARDING THAT IS, AGAIN, IT JUST GOES BACK TO THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, FLUORIDE IS IN OUR WATER. FLUORIDE IS IN ALL THE FOOD THAT WE EAT. IT'S IN EVERYTHING THAT WE DRINK. FLUORIDE SEVER WHERE. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVING THE -- ABOUT KEEPING THE LEVEL. KEEPING, YOU KNOW, IMREAG UPO AN A LEVEL THAT PROVIDES THE MOST BENEFIT WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF TIME. AGAIN THERE'S COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE MORE FLUORIDE THAN THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO. >> I KNOW. WE'RE INTERVENING IN THAT. SO WE'RE TAKING ACTION THAT'S SEPARATE FROM PROVIDING SAFE, CLEAN DRINKING WATER. THERE IS -- IT'S A QUESTION WE NEED TO ASK OURSELVES ON A REGULAR BASIS. THE THINGS WE DECIDED WERE FINE AND ETHICAL IN THE '50s ARE VERY -- I MEAN, OUR VERSION AND VISION OF ETHICS IS VERY DIFFERENT. SO THESE ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS TO BE ASKING OURSELVES: IS THERE A DIFFERENT WAY OF DOING IT? YOU SAID THAT IT'S LIKELY -- VERY LIKELY THAT FLUORIDE IS HELPFUL. AND YET TEN YEARS AGO IT WAS VERY LIKELY THAT MUCH HIGHER CONCENTRATION WERE HELPFUL. AND YET WE'VE LEARNED FROM THAT BECAUSE WE ASKED THESE SAME QUESTIONS. AND THE SAME QUESTIONS ARE BEING ASKED WITH SUBSTANCES HEALTH CANADA HAS DEEMED SAFE. IT TAKES A LOT LONGER TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF THE WATER. LYNVIEW RIDGE WE ALLOWED SINGLE-FAMILY DEVELOPMENT IN LYNVIEW RIDGE BECAUSE OUR PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF SAFE LEVELS OF LEAD CHANGED. AND THEN WE REALIZED WE ALLOWED A COMMUNITY THAT HAS TO BE COMPLETELY REMOVED. SO WE'RE ALWAYS LEARNING. AND I THINK THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF TODAY'S DISCUSSION. SO, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY. >> ANDERMAN MAR. >> SORRY. THANK YOU, CHAIR. IN ALL THIS DEBATE, I'VE RATHER FORGOTTEN YOUR NAME. >> NICK. >> OKAY. WELL, Dr. NICK IS WHAT I'LL CALL YOU. BECAUSE I THINK YOU'VE EARNED THAT TITLE, DOCTOR. AND I REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR CONTRIBUTING TODAY. NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THERE IS A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF FLUORIDE AVAILABLE TO ADD TO THE WATER. ARE YOU AWARE OF WHICH KIND WE'RE USING HERE IN THE CITY OF CALGARY? >> NO, I'M NOT SURE WHICH ADDITIVE WE'RE USING. I THINK THE ISSUE OF CONCERN OR INTEREST IN THAT DISCUSSION WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE -- I MEAN, FLUORIDE ITSELF IS AN ION. SO WHENEVER YOU HAVE FLUORIDE ADDED TO -- FLUORIDE WOULD INITIALLY BE A SOLID AND IT WOULD BE ADDED TO THE WATER AND THEN IT WOULD DISASSOCIATE FROM WHATEVER THAT ION WAS BOUND TO. SO, FOR EXAMPLE IN SODIUM FLUORIDE IT WOULD BE SODIUM THAT THE FLUORIDE WAS BOUND TO. SO FLUORIDE ITSELF IN SOLUTION SHOULD -- THE FLUORIDE ION EXISTS IN ISOLATION AND WOULDN'T NECESSARILY -- THE ION IS INDEPENDENT THEREFORE WHAT IT WAS BOUND TO. BUT IN TERMS OF WHAT WE USE TO -- WHAT COMPOUND THE FLUORIDE IS A PART WHEN WAS IT'S ADDED I'M NOT SURE. SO IN TERMS OF, I GUESS, THE QUESTION WOULD BE WHAT ADDITIONALLY APART FROM FLUORIDE IS BEING ADDED TO OUR WATER. I DO KNOW THERE ARE SIX OR SEVEN WAYS THAT IT CAN BE DONE. SO I'D IMAGINE THAT ANY WAY THAT HAS BEEN CHOSEN WOULD LIKELY HAVE BEEN DEEMED TO BE, YOU KNOW, THE SAFEST, MOST BENEFICIAL, CHEAPEST, WHAT HAVE YOU. AND THAT -- I MEAN FLUORIDE AGAIN IT'S IN THE WATER NATURALLY AND IT WOULD COME IN A COMPOUND FROM A ROCK INITIALLY. YOU KNOW, FOR SODIUM FLUORIDE OR FLOORO CYLICATE OR WHATEVER. WOOPS. >> WELL -- I'LL TELLISM THE ONE WE ARE USING IS HYDRO FLOORO SILLIC ACID. AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, BASICALLY IT'S A BY-PRODUCT FROM THE FERTILIZER INDUSTRY. WOULD YOU AGREE? OR YOU HAVE HEARD THIS? >> I HAVEN'T HEARD THIS. AND AGAIN, I MEAN -- FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW THE INITIAL KIND OF VISCERAL RESPONSE FOR MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY HEAR SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS, W WHOA, THAT SOUND KIND OF SCARY. I MEAN REALLY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CONCENTRATIONS HERE. WE'RE TALKING ONE PART PER MILLION. AND AN ACID IS REALLY ONLY AN ACID DEPENDING ON ITS CONCENTRATION. SO ESSENTIALLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE PH OF WATER IT WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE UNCHANGED BY THE ADDITION OF THAT SMALL QUANTITY OF ACID. SO, I MEAN IT, IS AN ISSUE OF QUANTITIES. AND SO TO SAY THAT WE'RE INGESTING ALL OF THIS HORRIBLE ACID, I MEAN YOU REALLY HAVE TO LOOK AT PROPORTIONS. >> RIGHT. SEVEN PARTS PER MILLION. >> .7. >> SORRY, .7. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY A HUGE DIFFERENCE. THE ACID PART IT WAS DOESN'T SCARE ME SO MUCH AS THE METHOD IN WHICH THIS IS COLLECTED. BECAUSE IT IS ESSENTIALLY COLLECTED FROM THE SCRUBBERS OF THE SMOKESTACKS IN CREATING FERTILIZER. THAT'S PARTLY -- THAT CONCERNS ME. AND THERE IS, AS YOU SAY, THERE'S SIX OR SEVEN DIFFERENT TYPES OF FLUORIDE AVAILABLE. AND YOU ALSO SUGGESTED THAT THERE IS A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT RATIONALS AS TO WHY WE WOULD SELECT X VERSUS Y. COST BEING ONE OF THEM. AND SAFETY ANOTHER. BUT, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN ETHICAL PERSPECTIVE, AND WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW THIS FLUORIDE GOT TO US, HOW IT'S GOING TO AFFECT US, IN THE LONG-TERM. I'M NOT NECESSARILY TALKING ABOUT THE TEN YEARS OR 15 YEARS OR WHAT IT'S DOING TO OUR TEETH. BUT WHAT IS IT DOING TO OUR BODIES OVER TIME FOR A MILLION, 1,000 PEOPLE. MY RESPONSIBILITY AS ONE OF THE ELECTED OFFICIAL THIS WAS IS TO LOOK AFTER THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF THAT POPULATION. WHETHER OR NOT THERE MAY BE. >> Andrea: SILLRY BENEFIT TO FLOOR -- MAY BE AN ANCILLARY BENEFIT TO FLUORIDATING WATER. AND IF IT DOES AND IF YOU CAN'T OPT OUT OF IT BECAUSE IT'S IN YOUR WATER, WHICH NO ONE CAN GET OUT OF, THEN WE HAVE AN ETHICAL PROBLEM HERE THAT CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED BASED ON. SO COMMENTS THAT YOU'VE HAD WITH REGARDS TO REDUCTION OF CAVITIES. IN MY VIEW, THIS IS -- ETHICAL PART COMES FROM: YOU CAN'T OPT OUT. YOU ARE BASICALLY HERE. YOU'RE ALL IN OR YOU'RE ALL OUT. MY QUESTION NOW IS: IF WE DON'T KNOW WHAT KINDS OF FLUORIDE IS AVAILABLE, HOW CAN WE MAKE THIS DECISION FOR 1.1 MILLION PEOPLE? AND HOW WOULD YOU HELP US MAKE THAT DECISION SOLELY ON THE BASIS THAT THE STUDIES THAT YOU'VE READ TELL US THAT IT'S NOT LIKELY TO CAUSE HARM? >> SO, I THINK -- THAT'S ABSOLUTELY A VERY GOOD POINT. SO I THINK THERE'S A NUMBER OF POINTS TO BE MADE ABOUT THAT. THE FIRST IS THAT I WOULD SAY YEAH, IF PEOPLE ARE TAKING COMPOUND OFF SMOKESTACKS AND DROPPING IS INTO WATER, THAT WOULD BE A PROBLEM. I WOULD HOPE THAT THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY THE PROCESS THAT OCCURS. BUT AGAIN, I MEAN, THE ISSUE IS THAT -- WHEN IF COMES TO UNKNOWNS, IT'S ALWAYS ASSUMED THAT ESSENTIALLY IF YOU ARE ADDING THIS SMALL AMOUNT OF SUBSTANCE TO A WATER FOR ALL THAT WE KNOW, THAT COULD BE -- LIKE, THE HUMAN BODY IS SUCH AN INFINITELY VARIABLE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT THE EFFECTS OF THAT TINY AMOUNT OF CHEMICAL ARE. BUT THEY COULD JUST AS LIKELY BE GOOD AS BE BAD. AND, YOU KNOW, AND THE POINT BEING -- I MEAN IT'S AN ORGANIC COMPOUND AND YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA OF SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHAT IF YOU TOOK IT OUT AND FOUND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GOT MORE CANCER? THERE'S NO WAY OF KNOWING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. AND, YOU NEGOTIATION THE OTHER ARGUMENT WOULD I MAKE IS THAT IF THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, SIGNIFICANT NEGATIVE HEALTH OUTCOMES FROM THE COMPOUND THAT FLUORIDE A PART OF, WE'D PROBABLY SEE IT IN THE LONG-TERM WE'D PROBABLY SEE ALL KIND OF THESE -- YOU KNOW, WE'D SEE A STATISTICAL, SIGNIFICANT LARGE NUMBER OF CANCERS IN POPULATIONS THAT HAVE FLUORIDATED WATER. AND THAT JUST HASN'T BEEN SEEN. AND THAT HASN'T BEEN BORNE OUT IN THE LITERATURE. BUT IF THAT WAS THE CASE YEAH INITIALLY YOU'D SAY OKAY, WE'RE SEEING LOFTS CANCERS HERE IN ALL THESE FLUORIDATED AREAS AND IT'S STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT AND THE STUDIES DONE ARE GOOD STUDIES AND, YOU KNOW, LET'S TAKE IT OUT. BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE. AND IF THAT WAS THE CASE, THEN, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC HEALTH PHYSICIANS WOULD BE COMING TO YOU SAYING LET'S GET THE FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER, IT'S CAUSING CANCER, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING. THAT'S NOT WHAT THE LITERATURE HAS SHOWN US. >> OKAY, THANK YOU. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. >> THANK YOU DOCTOR FOR YOUR TIME. NEXT SPEAKER ON MY LIST IS JEANETTE BOYD. >> HELLO. MY NAME'S JEANETTE BOYD. THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING US HERE TODAY. SOME GREAT INFORMATION I'M LEARNING A LOT HERE TODAY. INCREDIBLE BRAINS AND MIND AND GREAT INSIGHTS. I AM FOR FLUORIDE. BUT I THINK ONE OF OUR BIGGEST ISSUES IS EDUCATION. MY CHILDREN WERE ALL BORN IN VANCOUVER AND THEY HAD NO FLUORIDE IN VANCOUVER. SO YES, WE DID HAVE TO GIVE THE FLUORIDE DROPS THAT PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HERE TODAY. IT HAD TO BE DONE ON A DAILY BASIS. WHEN MY SECOND CHILD WAS BORN SHE WAS TWELVE MONTHS OLD, I CAME HOME TO CALGARY TO VISIT MY PARENTS. I RAN OUT OF FLUORIDE DROPS. SO I WENT TO THE PHARMACY. WHEN I WENT TO THE PHARMACY, THE PHARMACIST GAVE ME SUCH A BLAST BECAUSE I WAS DOING SOMETHING SO TERRIBLE TO MY DAUGHTER BY GIVING HER FLUORIDE DROPS. THAT I STOPPED GIVING HER FLUORIDE DROPS. THIS PHARMACIST DID NOT KNOW THAT I WAS LIVING IN A PROVINCE THAT HAD NO FLUORIDE IN THE WATER. I WAS A YOUNG MOM. THERE IS NO LITERATURE GIVEN TO MOMS -- AT LEAST THERE WASN'T AT THE TIME WHEN I HAD CHILDREN, AS TO ORAL CARE. FOR YOUR CHILD. SIX MONTHS AFTER I GOT HOME, IN B.C., I HELD MY 18-MONTH-OLD DAUGHTER AS SHE PASSED OUT SCREAMING IN PAIN. DUE TO ROTTEN TEETH. SHE WENT FOR FOUR YEARS WITHOUT FRONT TEETH. BECAUSE I DID NOT GIVE HER HER FLUORIDE DROPS. BECAUSE OF A CONFLICT OF TWO PROVINCES. AND NO EDUCATION. ONE THING PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO REALIZE, AND I'M SURPRISED IT WASN'T MENTIONED EARLIER TODAY FROM THE PHYSICIANS AND THE DENTISTS IS: WHEN CHILDREN'S TEETH FIRST ARE FORMED AND FIRST COME OUT OF THEIR GUMS YOU CAN LITERALLY TAKE YOUR FINGERNAIL AND ERODE IT TO NOTHING. THEY HAVE NO PROTECTION. ON THEIR TEETH. THAT'S WHY IT'S A NECESSITY THAT THEY HAVE FLUORIDE. PUTTING IN THE WATER, MASS MEDICATION, IS THE BEST WAY TO GO. THAT WAY IT'S AVAILABLE FOR EVERY SINGLE ONE. WHEN Mr. MEADE HAS MENTIONED THAT, YOU KNOW, HE'S WORKING WITH THE HOMELESS AND THE WORKING POOR, I WAS A SINGLE MOM OF THREE KIDS FOR YEARS. AND OF COURSE YOU'RE NOT HEARING THEM TALK ABOUT FLUORIDE AS AN ISSUE HERE IN CALGARY. BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT AN ISSUE. THEY ARE GETTING THE FLUORIDE. BUT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU, IF YOU TAKE THE FLUORIDE OUT OF THIS WATER, Mr. MEADE IS GOING TO HEAR QUITE A BIT COMING FROM THESE POOR PEOPLE WHILE THEIR CHILDREN'S TEETH ARE LITERALLY ROTTING OUT OF THEIR MOUTH. WHO'S GOING TO GIVE THE PARENTS THE EDUCATION? WHO IS GOING TO ENSURE THAT OUR CHILDREN HAVE HEALTHY TEETH? THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WILL BENEFIT BY TAKING FLUORIDE OUT OF THE WATER ARE DENTISTS. THEY WILL BE GETTING A LOT, A LOT OF WORK. SO I ASK YOU GUYS, THINK ABOUT IT. BEFORE YOU MAKE A DECISION WHAT THE RAMIFICATIONS ARE GOING TO BE. SAVING YOURSELF $750.000 A YEAR, THAT'S PEANUTS AS TO WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST PARENTS IN THIS CITY TO KEEP UP WITH THEIR CHILDREN'S TEETH. I AM 43 YEARS OLD, BORN AND RAISED CALGARIAN. ZERO CAVITIES. THANKS TO THE WATER. IN CALGARY. THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, THANK YOU. NEXT SPEAKER ON MY LIST IS DENNIS STEFANIE. DENNIS STEFANIE. >> OKAY. THANKS FOR SHARING THAT WITH US. I'LL GO TO THE NEXT -- I'LL GO TO THE NEXT SPEAKER. YVONNE SHEERMAN. (INAUDIBLE COMMENT) >> OKAY. SHEILA TAMINSKY. SHEILA TAMINSKY. YOU'RE SHEILA? ARE YOU DENNIS? >> I AM DENNIS. SORRY. >> WE KNOW WHERE YOU WERE. WE WON'T GO THERE. >> DO YOU HAVE SOME SLIDES? SO THANKS VERY MUCH. MY NAME IS DENNIS STEFANIE. AND I'M WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL PUBLIC HEALTH PROGRAM. HERE IN CALGARY. AND I'M HERE TO TALK INTAIFT OF HYDRO FLOORO SILLIC ACID WHICH IS THE FLUORIDE PRODUCT BEING USED -- BEING ADDED TO THE CALGARY DRINKING WATER SUPPLY. (PLEASE STAND BY) THE PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS BY THE MANUFACTURER FOR THIS PRODUCT ARE FOR HYDROFLUOROSILICATE LESS THAN 1% AND SOME TRACE IMPURITIES TO 0.02% MAXIMUM. THE PRODUCT IS CERTIFIED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARDS INSTITUTE AND THE NATIONAL SANITATION FOUNDATION TO STANDARD 60 FOR DRINKING WATER CHEMICALS AND FOR HEALTH EFFECTS. WHICH IS A STANDARD TO ENSURE PUBLIC HEALTH PROTECTION FOR ADDITIVES THAT ARE ADDED TO WATER AND ALSO PRESENT IN THE FINISHED DRINKING WATER. THE NEXT SLIDE I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU IS THE ANALYTICAL BREAKDOWN OF TRACE CONTAMINANTS IN THE PRODUCT RECEIVED BY THE CITY OF CALGARY PRIOR TO ADDITION TO THE DRINKING WATER. NOW, THIS TABLE SHOWS THE CONCENTRATIONS IN THE CENTRE COLUMN OF IMPURITIES IN THE PRODUCT RECEIVED BY THE CITY. THE RIGHT COLUMN SHOWS HEALTH CANADA ACCEPTABLE DRINKING WATER GUIDELINES FOR THOSE SUBSTANCES. NOW, IN THE CONCENTRATED PRODUCT, PRIOR TO DILUTION, 16 OF THE 18 SUBSTANCES ARE ALREADY BELOW GUIDELINE STANDARDS. THE REMAINING 2 SUBSTANCES ARE ALSO WELL BELOW THE HEALTH CANADA GUIDELINE WHEN THE PRODUCT IS ADDED TO THE DRINKING WATER. NOW, DURING YOU'RE TREATMENT, APPROXIMATELY 430 FAMILIARS OF THIS PRODUCT -- GRAMS OF THIS PRODUCT ARE ADDED PER 1 MILLION LITRES OF WATER RESULTING IN A VOLUMEETRIC DILUTION OF 3 MILLION TIMES. CONCENTRATIONS YOU SAW IN THE PREVIOUS TABLE MUST BE DILUTED BY 3 MILLION TIMES FOR THEIR FINAL CONCENTRATION IN THE FINISHED CALGARY DRINKING WATER SUPPLY. AND THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THESE CONCENTRATIONS. AND AS YOU CAN SEE BY ALL THOSE ZEROS IN THE CENTRE COLUMN, THE FINAL CONCENTRATIONS OF THESE IMPURITIES IN CALGARY DRINKING WATER AFTER DELUSION RANGES FROM 170.000 TO OVER 1 MILLION TIMES LESS THAN THE HEALTH CANADA AND DRINKING WATER QUALITY GUIDELINE. THESE ARE HUGE DILUTIONS. SO WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS PRODUCT TO PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY? REALLY, THERE ARE NONE. I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THERE ARE NO HEALTH CONCERNS BASED ON THE EXTREMELY LOW CONCENTRATIONS PRESENT IN THE FINAL DRINKING WATER THAT ARE 170.000 TIMES AT THE MINIMUM TO OVER A MILLION TIMES IN THE LOWER THAN CANADIAN DRINKING WATER QUALITY GUIDELINES. SO I THINK THIS CERTAINLY GIVES A LEVEL OF CONFIDENCE OF THE SAFETY OF THAT WATER. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? NO QUESTIONS? OKAY. THANK YOU. NEXT PRESENTER, TED WYNILOWICZ. I HOPE I GOT THAT RIGHT. OH, SORRY. I TEND TO SKIP OVER -- I'LL CALL YOU RIGHT AFTER HIM. >> THANK YOU. MY TED WYNILOWICZ. I'M A CITIZEN OF CALGARY SINCE 1975. I'VE -- THE POINTS THAT I MADE HAVE BEEN MADE SO I'M GOING TO CERTAINLY HONOUR THE REQUEST MADE AND BE AS BRIEF AS I CAN BE. AT ANY RATE, PUBLIC PARTICIPATION PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN A DEMOCRACY, AND I'M PLEASED TO STAND BEFORE YOU TO OFFER MY POSITION AND EXPLAIN WHY I SUPPORT THE REMOVAL OF FLUORIDE FROM CITY WATER. I'LL GO BRIEFLY ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MENTIONED. THE FIRST ONE WAS A 1991-2001 CENTRES OF DISEASE CONTROL PREVENTION HAS ACKNOWLEDGE THE MECHANISM OF FLUORIDE'S BENEFITS ARE MAINLY TOPICAL AND NOT SYSTEMIC. THE SECOND POINT ALSO MENTIONED ONCE FLUORIDE IS PUT IN THE WATER IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL THE DOSE THAT EACH PERSON RECEIVES. AND THE THIRD POINT IS THAT FLUORIDATION IS UNETHICAL BECAUSE INDIVIDUALS ARE NOT ASKED FOR THEIR INFORMED CONSENT PRIOR TO MEDICATION. THIS IS STANDARD PRACTICE FOR ALL MEDICATION. AND ONE OF THE KEY REASONS WHY MOST OF WESTERN EUROPE HAS RULED AGAINST FLUORIDATION. FOR THOSE THREE OUT OF MANY DIFFERENT REASONS I OPPOSE THE FLUORIDATION. I AM NOT A SIGN TEST, NOT AN EXPERT ON THAT, BUT THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE US FROM HAVING AN OPINION. ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT I HAVE IS THAT THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THAT'S VERY ABSOLUTE, AND AS VACLAV HAVEL ONCE SAID FOLLOW THOSE WHO SEEK THE TRUTH BUT RUN FROM THOSE WHO HAVE FOUND IT. SO I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAUTIOUS IN THE DIRECTION THAT WE TAKE AND HAVE A DEBATE WHERE ALL POSITIONS ARE LISTENED TO, BUT WITH A DEGREE OF SKEPTICISM. SO TO CONCLUDE, A CHOICE ON THIS MATTER IS IMPORTANT, FROM MY VIEWPOINT. THOSE WHO WISH TO CONTINUE TO USE FLUORIDE HAVE THAT RIGHT AND THERE COULD BE DIFFERENT WAYS OF DISPENSING THAT. FROM COULD BE FLUORIDE VOUCHERS OR WHATEVER. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THAT THE RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO OPPOSE FLUORIDATION SHOULD BE RESPECTED AS WELL. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE. THANK YOU. SHEILA. TAMYNSKI. SORRY FOR FORGETTING ABOUT YOU. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND GOOD AFTERNOON. MY NAME IS SHEILA TAMYNSKI AND I AM A PUBLIC HEALTH DIETITIAN AND MANAGER OF POPULATION AND PUBLIC HEALTH NUTRITION IN ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. I WOULD LIKE TO VOICE MY SUPPORT FOR OUR PUBLIC WATER FLUORIDATION IN THE CITY OF CALGARY. FLUORIDE IS A NUTRIENT. THIS MEANS THAT ITS CONSUMPTION IS ESSENTIAL FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH. THIS IS RECOGNIZED, IT'S RECOGNIZED AS A NUTRIENT BY EVERY CREDIBLE HEALTH AND SCIENTIFIC BODY AROUND THE WORLD. INCLUDING HEALTH CANADA, THE INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE AND THE CENTRE FOR DISEASE CONTROL. THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND OTHERS HAVE ESTABLISHED RECOMMENDATIONS FOR REQUIREMENTS. FLUORIDE'S MAIN ROLE IS IN THE PREVENTION OF TOOTH DECAY, HAVING HEALTHY TEETH IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF OVERALL HEALTH SO PROTECTING OUR TEETH FROM DECAY CONTRIBUTES TO OUR HEALTH AND WELL BEING. THERE IS A LIMITED AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE AVAILABLE NATURALLY IN OUR FOOD AND WATER. NOT ENOUGH TO MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS. BY ADDING FLUORIDE TO OUR WATER, WE ENSURE THAT WE HAVE ENOUGH FLUORIDE TO PROTECT OUR TEETH FROM DECAY. MAJOR HEALTH BODIES FROM AROUND THE WORLD HAVE UNDERTAKEN EXTENSIVE AND EXHAUSTIVE REVIEWS OF THOUSANDS OF STUDIES AROUND THE SAFETY AND EFFECTIVENESS OF WATER FLUORIDATION AND THE RESULTS ARE CLEAR AND CONSISTENT. IN EVERY SINGLE CASE, NO ADVERSE EFFECTS TO HUMAN HEALTH WERE FOUND AND THERE'S WITH MODERATE LEVELS OF CONSUMPTION. I'D ALSO LIKE TO SAY THAT I'M THE MOTHER OF FOUR CHILDREN WHO ARE GROWN UP. AND AS SOMEONE WHO WORKS IN THE FIELD OF NUTRITION AND IS FAMILIAR WITH THIS STUDY, MY CHILDREN HAVE ALWAYS DRANK FLUORIDATED WATER, TAP WATER. AS A MOTHER I WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO PUT MY CHILDREN IN HARM'S WAY. SO I HAVE ALWAYS HAD THE FULL CONFIDENCE IN THE RESEARCH AND STUDIES TO PROVIDE MY KIDS WITH TAP WATER. AND I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO JUST ADD TO THE DIALOGUE HERE AROUND THE COUNT, NONE OF MY KIDS HAVE ANY DENTAL CARRIES. ALL OF MY KIDS HAVE GOOD STRONG TEETH AND NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY SIGNS OF FLOUROSIS. FLUORIDE IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF A HEALTHY DIET. THE JURY IS IN. WATER FLUORIDATION AS CARRIED OUT IN CALGARY IS THE SAFEST AND MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF ENSURING THAT ALL OF OUR CITIZENS GET ENOUGH FLUORIDE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, THANKS FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. THE NEXT SPEAKER I HAVE IS Dr. BOB DICKSON. I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE A BOB. >> I'M PRESENTING Dr. BOB DICKSON WHO IS UNFORTUNATELY ABSENT THIS WEEK, AND MY NAME IS SUZANNA NEDERO. THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY -- I'M READING HIS PRESENTATION. THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT BEFORE THE UND COMMITTEE AND IN ESSENCE TO CITY COUNCIL. MY PROFOUND APOLOGIES FOR NOT ATTENDING IN PERSON. AT THIS MOMENT, I'M MOST LIKELY SITTING UNDER THE UNFLUORIDATED WATERFALL IN COSTA RICA. HOWEVER, YOU CAN BE CERTAIN THE COMMITTEE AND THE PROCESS WILL BE CLOSE TO MY MIND AND HEART. I EXPECT THERE WILL BE MANY PASSIONATE PRESENTERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS CONTENTIOUS DEBATE. I CAN ASSURE THAT YOU NONE HAVE RESEARCHED AND PORED THROUGH THE LITERATURE AND PRESS TO THE EXTENT THAT Dr. BECK AND I HAVE. I WANT TO SAY THAT I BELIEVE IN FLUORIDE. IT IS JUST THAT WE ARE USING IT ABSOLUTELY WRONG. AND DANGEROUSLY. FLUORIDE AS ADMITTED BY MOST OF THE WORLD INCLUDING THE OFTEN QUOTED CENTRE FOR DISEASE CONTROL WORKS ONLY TOPICALLY. THE HUMOROUS ANALOGY OFTEN REPEAT IS THAT WE DON'T SWALLOW OUR SUNSCREEN SO WE SHOULDN'T SWALLOW FLUORIDE EITHER PARTICULARLY WITH ALL THE INHERENT PROBLEMS AND ASSOCIATED DANGERS. YOU WILL LIKELY HEAR A LOT ABOUT PROPONENTS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF FLUORIDATION. I FAIL TO UNDERSTAND HOW INGESTING ONE OF THE MOST TOXIC SUBSTANCES ON THE PLANET WITHOUT CONTROL OF DOSE AND WITHOUT MONITORING OR FOLLOWUP COULD EVER BE CONSIDERED SAFE. THIS DEFIES THE OATH I HAVE TAKEN AS A PHYSICIAN TO DO NO HARM TO PATIENTS AND HUMANKIND. WE HAVE A SMALL AMOUNT OF NATURAL CALCIUM FLUORIDE IN OUR BOW AND ELBOW RIVER WATER SUPPLIES, AND MANY OF US INCLUDING ME BRUSH WITH PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE SODIUM FLUORIDE. HYDROFLUOROSILICATE HAS CREPT OUT THE INDUSTRY SMOKESTACKS OF THE FERTILIZER AND ALUMINUM INDUSTRIES. THEN BECAUSE IT IS SO TOXIC AND VOLATILE, IT IS RIGIDLY CONTROLLED AND NOT ALLOWED TO BE DISPOSED OF IN YOUR STREAMS, RIVERS, LAKES, OCEANS AIR OR LAND. THE ONLY PLACE THAT INDUSTRY HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO DISPOSE OF THIS VOLATILE WASTE ASIDE FROM TOXIC WASTE DUMPS IS IN OUR OTHERWISE PRISTINE DRINKING WATER. HIGHLY LEVEL MEDICAL OFFICIALS IN ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES HAVE TOLD ME THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT DOSE OR MASS MEDICATION AS FLUORIDE IS NOT A MEDICATION. WELL, IT DOESN'T NATURALLY OCCUR IN THE BODY, AND IT IS NOT ESSENTIALLY TO BODILY FUNCTIONS. AND THE SUPREME COURT OF CANADA IN 1958 RULED THAT FLUORIDE IS INDEED A MEDICATION. THEREFORE, ANY ETHICAL PHYSICIAN IS BOUND TO OBTAIN INFORMED CONSENT, CONTROL DOSE, MONITOR EFFECTS, BE VIGILANT FOR SIDE EFFECTS AND FOLLOW UP REGULARLY. NONE, I REPEAT, NONE OF THESE ARE DONE BY THE CITY OF CALGARY, ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES OR HEALTH CANADA. A SENIOR HEALTH OFFICIAL ALSO WAS QUOTED ON CBC NATIONAL RADIO RECENTLY IN SAYING THERE IS NO MEDICAL JUSTIFICATION FOR M.D.s TO TELL PATIENTS NOT TO TAKE FLUORIDE. THAT STATEMENT SIMPLY DEFIES COMMON SENSE, RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY, GOOD MEDICINE AND THE PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLES. WE SAY IF YOU ARE UNCERTAIN, DON'T DO IT. HARM IS MOST CERTAINLY BEING DONE SLOWLY AND INSIDIOUSLY TO THE AVERAGE CITIZEN. BUT TAKE A MOMENT TO THINK ABOUT THOSE WHO CANNOT VOTE OR OFTEN DON'T HAVE A VOICE OF THEIR OWN, INFANTS AND SMALL CHILDREN. THE ELDERLY, KIDNEY PATIENTS, THE POOR. THIS BRINGS UP ANOTHER ADAGE INCESSANTLY REPEATED, FLUORIDATION IS GOOD FOR THE POOR. THAT IS FAR FROM THE TRUTH. VERY GOOD STUDIES SHOW THAT IT IS POVERTY, NOT FLUORIDATION, THAT MAKE IT IS OR BREAKS IT FOR POOR KIDS. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN PARALLEL STUDIES. IN GROUPS OF DISADVANTAGED KIDS WHO ARE EITHER NOR DATED OR NOT. -- FLUORIDATED OR NOT. MANY GRAPHS VERIFY IT IS BETTER DENTAL CARE, MORE BRUSHING AND FLOSSING. FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE, BETTER DIET WITH INCREASED LEVELS OF CALCIUM AND OTHER ESSENTIAL NUTRITION THAT ARE CAUSING THE DECLINE OF DENTAL DECAY IN OUR WORLD. NONFLUORIDATEED REGIONS IN COUNTRIES HAVE THE SAME DECLINE IN CAVITIES AS A NATURE OF FLUORIDATED AREAS SUCH AS ALBERTA AND THE U.S.A. SOME QUICK POINTS TO FINISH. BRITISH COLUMBIA AND EUROPE ARE 95% AND 98% UNFLUORIDATED. THEY'RE TEETH ARE AS GOOD AS OURS IN 75% FLUORIDATED ALBERTA. A NOBEL LAUREATE RECENTLY CALLED FLUORIDATION THE BIGGEST FRAUD EVER PROPAGATED AGAINST SOCIETY. 7,000 SCIENTISTS FROM THE EPA HAVE PETITIONED THE U.S. CONGRESS TO PUT A MORATORIUM ON FLUORIDATION. 3,300 PROFESSIONALS WORLDWIDE HAVE SIGNED ONTO A CAMPAIGN TO HOLD FLUORIDATION -- >> I HATE TO BREAK IN ON YOU BUT YOUR FIVE MINUTES IS UP. DO YOU HAVE A CONCLUDING COMMENT? >> AS A STATEMENT, PLEASE HAVE THE POLITICAL COURAGE TO REMOVE THIS VOLATILE TOXIN FROM OUR DRINKING WATER. THANK YOU. ON BEHALF OF Dr. BOB DICKSON. >> IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? CAN WE GET COPIES OF YOUR PRESENTATION? >> I HAVE MY PRESENTATION, YES. >> COULD YOU MAYBE GET -- GIVE IT TO THE CLERK SO WE COULD COPY IT? >> ABSOLUTELY. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SEE NOTHING QUESTIONS. SEEING NO QUESTIONS. THE NEXT PRESENTER IS SUZANNA NEDER? >> ME AGAIN. >> GLAD I DIDN'T HAVE TO LOOK VERY FAR. >> I'M NOT A MEDICAL EXPERT, NOT A SCIENTIST, NOT A CHEMIST. BUT AN ENTREPRENEUR AND A CONCERNED CITIZEN. THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT BEFORE YOU. I'M A NEW CALGARIAN AND MOVED FROM SWITZERLAND ALMOST ONE AND A HALF YEARS AGO. WHEN I LEARNED THAT CALGARY STILL FLUORIDATED THE PUBLIC DRINKING WATER, I WAS MORE THAN SURPRISED THAT SUCH AN OUTDATED AND POLITICALLY -- POTENTIALLY HARMFUL PRACTICE IS STILL IN USE. SWITZERLAND IS A COUNTRY WITH ONE OF THE HIGHEST STANDARDS OF LIVING, WITH ONE OF THE BEST EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS, AND VERY IMPORTANT SWITZERLAND'S WATER IS NOT FLUORIDATED. THE ONLY CITY IN SWITZERLAND FLUORIDATED ITS WATER IN THE PAST FROM 1962 TO 2003. SWITZERLAND USES SALT FLUORIDATION AND USES IT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL TO USE SALT WITH OR WITHOUT FLUORIDE. ALSO OFFERS TOOTHPASTE WITH OR WITHOUT FLUORIDE. IN SWITZERLAND, FLUORIDE IS REGARDED AS INVENTION INTO PERSONAL FREEDOM. I BELIEVE IT'S A PERSONAL ATTRIBUTE THAT IS ALSO VERY DEAR TO CANADIANS AND TO NORTH AMERICANS IN GENERAL. A BOARD MEMBER OF A HEALTH AND SOCIAL COMMISSION SAID IT IS OF MOST IMPORTANCE THAT THE INDIVIDUAL HAS THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE THE APPROPRIATE PROPHYLAXIS. THE MAIN REASON WATER FLUORIDATION STOPPED IN 2003 WHICH WAS THE ONLY CITY IN SWITZERLAND ARE REPORTED AS LACK OF EVIDENCE THAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN SALT FLUORIDATION IN REDUCING TOOTH DECAY. THE SECOND POINT, THE INEFFICIENCY OF WATER FLUORIDATION, AND SWISS LIKE TO BE VERY EFFICIENT. THE HEALTH COMMISSION PRESIDENT STATED ONLY A MINIMAL PART OF SO-CALLED DRINKING WATER IS USED FOR DRINKING AND COOKING. MORE THAN 99% OF THE WATER IS NOT DRINKING WATER BUT IS USED FOR WASHING CARS, CLEANING STAIRS, SHOWERING TO POUR ON FLOWERS AND SO ON. FLUORIDE IS POISON THAT UNLOADS NECESSARY OUR RIVERS AND ENVIRONMENT SUPPORTED BY A DOCTOR, THE FLUORIDATION OF WATER HAD A MINIMAL EFFICIENCY AS MOST OF THE FLUORIDE WAS BOILED. THE HEALTH COMMISSION RECOMMENDED TO STOP WATER FLUORIDATION AND TO OFFER THE INDIVIDUALS FLUORIDATION SALT. AT THE CITY PARLIAMENT ACKNOWLEDGED EFFECTS AND STOPPED THE CITY WATER FLUORIDATION IN 2003. AT A EUROPEAN MEET ON FLUORIDATION, CONCERNED ABOUT THE MEDICAL ETHICS WERE VOICED QUITE STRONGLY BY THE RECENT NOBEL PRIZE RECIPIENT FOR MEDICINE, A DOCTOR FROM SWEDEN. CARLSON WHO LOCKED THE SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGN TO STOP FLUORIDATION IN SWEDEN, THE PUBLIC WATER SUPPLIES ARE NOT THE APPROPRIATE VEHICLE WITH WHICH TO DELIVER PHARMACALOGICALLY DRUGS TO THE POPULATION. FLUORIDATION WILL BE CONSIGNED TO MEDICAL HISTORY. THE ADDITION TO DRUGS TO THE DRINKING WATER MEANS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF INDIVIDUALIZED THERAPY. NOT ONLY IS THAT THE DOSE CANNOT BE ADAPTED TO INDIVIDUAL REQUIREMENTS, IT IS IN ADDITION BASED ON COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT FACTOR, NAMELY CONSUMPTION OF DRINKING WATER WHICH VARIES GREATLY BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL AND IS MOREOVER VERY POORLY SURVEYED. CARLSSON'S VIEWS ARE SIMILAR TO THOSE EXPRESSED BY RECENT EUROPE HEALTH AUTHORITIES, FOR EXAMPLE AN AUTHORITY IN BELGIUM. IT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL POSITION OF THE DRINKING WATER SECTOR THAT IT IS NOT ITS TASK TO DELIVER MEDICINAL TREATMENT TO PEOPLE. THIS IS THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF HEALTH SERVICES. ACCORDING TO THE CHIEF WATER AUTHORITY IN LUXEMBOURG, IN OUR VIEW THE DRINKING WATER ISN'T A SUITABLE WAY FOR MEDICAL TREATMENTS, AND THAT PEOPLE NEEDING AN ADDITION OF FLUORIDE CAN BE DECIDED BY THEIR OWN TO USE THE MOST APPROPRIATE WAY. AND GERMANY'S GOVERNMENT WAS SAYING THE AUGMENTATION OF THE FEDERAL MINISTRY OF HEALTH AGAINST THE GENERAL PERMISSION OF FLUORIDATION OF DRINKING WATER IS THE PROBLEMATIC NATURE OF COMPELSRY MEDICATION. AND IN FRANS, FLUORIDE CHEMICALS ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE LIST OF CHEMICALS FOR DRINKING WATER TREATMENT. THIS IS DUE TO ETHICAL AS WELL AS MEDICAL CONSIDERATIONS. PLEASE PROVIDE US WITH FLUORIDE-FREE DRINKING WATER. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU. I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T CATCH YOUR LAST NAME. >> NEDERIL. >> SO YOU'RE NOT A HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. >> NO. >> YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE IN THE DISCUSSION THAT HAS BEEN OCCURRING IN EUROPE. AND WHEN DID THIS CHANGE -- BECAUSE MUCH OF EUROPE DID FLUORIDATE, OR -- >> ABSOLUTELY. >> THEY DID. SO WHEN DID THIS CHANGE OF PROCESS HAPPEN? WHEN DID -- AND WHAT PRECIPITATED IT? I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THAT. >> SO I CANNOT TALK FOR ALL THE COUNTRIES, FOR SWITZERLAND IT WAS ONLY BASIL WHICH FLUORIDATED WATER AND ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES, THEY STARTED FLUORIDATING IN THE '50s, BUT THEN MANY STOPPED AFTER 20, 30 YEARS BECAUSE IT WAS JUST NOT PROVEN -- THE BENEFITS WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH THAT IT REALLY PREVENTS THE HEALTH OF THE DENTAL HEALTH, BECAUSE IT CAN BE SUBSTITUTED AND IT'S ALSO MINIMIZES THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT OF THE PERSON TO CHOOSE OR NOT TO CHOOSE. >> SO THIS IS MOSTLY WESTERN EUROPE WHERE THIS IS OCCURRING? THIS CHANGE OF PROCESS? OR IS IT -- >> A LOT OF COUNTRIES IN EASTERN EUROPE WHICH DON'T FLUORIDATE AS WELL. EVEN SOME NORTH AFRICAN COUNTRIES. SO IT IS CERTAINLY A STRONG TREND. >> AND SO ARE THOSE COUNTRIES MONITORING THE EFFECTS? >> VERY STRONGLY. I MEAN, BASIL DID EXPENSIVE RESEARCH, IN SWITZERLAND LIKE ZURICH NEVER FLUORIDATED ITS WATER, SO THEY DIDN'T SEE ANY BETTER DENTAL HEALTH IN THE PEOPLE, CHILDREN AND OLDER PEOPLE THAN IN BASIL. SO THERE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT FLUORIDATION IS NECESSARY OF THE WATER. >> OKAY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION TODAY. >> THANK YOU, MA'AM. THE NEXT SPEAKER IS -- SORRY. SORRY. THERE IS A QUESTION FOR YOU. THAT WAS A LATE LIGHT. >> I THINK IT'S JUST ON THE OUTSIDE, YOU HAVE TROUBLE SEEING IT. >> I DON'T GO BY WHAT'S THERE, I GO BY WHAT'S HERE. >> OKAY, THANK YOU FOR THE PRESENTATION. I APPRECIATE THAT. YOU SAID THAT BASIL STOPPED FLUORIDATING THE WATER BECAUSE THERE WAS NO -- I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY HOW YOU SAID IT, BUT NO -- FLUORIDE WAS SHOWN NOT TO BE EFFECTIVE -- >> THE LACK OF EVIDENCE THAT WATER FLUORIDATION WAS EFFECTIVE. >> YOU ALSO SAID THAT AFTER THEY TOOK IT OUT, THERE WAS NO CHANGE IN THE DENTAL DECAY RATE. >> CORRECT. >> BUT THEY DID ADD IT TO THE SALT. >> YEAH. CITIES OF SWITZERLAND, SWITZERLAND ADDS IT TO THE SALT BUT THERE IS FLUORIDATED SALT AND SALT THAT IS NOT FLUORIDATED. SO I AS AN INDIVIDUAL CAN CHOOSE. >> I SEE. BUT THAT MAY EXPLAIN WHY THERE WAS NO CHANGE IN THE DENTAL DECAY RATE. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. >> MY PLEASURE. >> THANKS. OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS DANIELLA ANDRE. >> HELLO, EVERYONE. I SALUTE THE ENTIRE AUDIENCE. >> COULD YOU MOVE CLOSER TO THE MIC? >> I SALUTE THE ENTIRE AUDIENCE. Mr. CHAIR, ALDERMEN, COMMITTEE AND FELLOW CITIZENS, I THANK EVERYONE FOR BEING HERE FOR TAKING THE PASSION, THE CARE, THE EFFORT AND THE TIME TO PUT SOMETHING FORWARD THAT INTERESTS ALL OF US PRESENT AND NOT PRESENT. I'M A CALGARY CITIZEN. I'M NOT A WATER, MEDICAL OR LEGAL EXPERT AND I'M NOT CLAIMING THAT. I JUST EXPRESS MY OPINION BACKED BY RESEARCH AND MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE RESEARCH. I LET YOU REVIEW, ANALYZE AND DRAW CONCLUSIONS. I'M PETITIONING THE CALGARY MUNICIPALITY TODAY TO STOP WATER FLUORIDATION BECAUSE, ONE, NUMEROUS STUDIES SHOW THAT NOT ONLY IS FLUORIDATION INEFFECTIVE AGAINST CAVITIES, BUT IT POSES SERIOUS HEALTH RISKS SUCH AS ALTERING OF THE ENDOCRINE FUNCTION, CAUSING DENTAL FLUOROSIS IN YOUNG CHILDREN, LOWERING IQ, INCREASING RISK OF BONE FRACTURES AND OVEREXPOSURE OF FLUORIDE IN COMBINATION WITH TOOTHPASTE, MOUTH RINSE PRODUCTS AND FOODS. ARTICLES WITH SOURCES ON AUTHORS PUBLICATIONS AND STUDIES ARE ATTACHED AND I WILL PROVIDE THEM TO YOU. A COUPLE OF STUDIES TO CONTINUE WHAT THE OTHER FELLOW CITIZENS HAVE BROUGHT HERE, SO, ONE, THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION HAS COMPILED A STUDY THAT SHOWS NO DIFFERENCE IN TOOTH DECAY IN COUNTRIES THAT USE FLUORIDATED WATER VERSUS COUNTRIES THAT USE NONFLNONFLUORIDATED WATER. TWO, THE LARGEST DENTAL SURVEY EVER CONDUCTED IN THE UNITED STATES FOUND VIRTUALLY NO DIFFERENCE IN DENTAL DECAY BETWEEN CHILDREN LIVING IN FLUORIDATED VERSUS UNFLUORIDATED AREAS. THE STUDY WAS CONDUCTED BY THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF DENTAL RESEARCH. THREE. THE AMERICAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION AND THE AMERICAN CENTRE FOR DISEASE CONTROL RECOMMENDS THAT INFANTS SHOULD NOT RECEIVE FLUORIDATED WATER FOR DRINKING OR MAKING BABY FORMULA AS FLUORIDATED WATER CONTAINS 250 TIMES MORE FLUORIDE THAN THE MOTHER'S MILK. FOUR. PROFESSIONALS ARE OF THE OPINION THAT WE ALREADY TAKE THE OPTIMAL 1 MILLIGRAM OF FLUORIDE FROM PESTICIDE RESIDUALS, FLUORIDATED FOODS AND BEVERAGES AND FLUORIDE AIR POLLUTION. FIVE. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT WE ARE TAKING FLUORIDE IN OUR BODIES NOT ONLY THROUGH DRINKING THE WATER, BUT ALSO WHEN WE SHOWER AND TAKE BATHS. FROM WHAT I READ, IT SEEMS LIKE OUR BODY CAN TAKE UP TO 1.5 LITRE OF WATER WHEN TAKING A BATH OR A SHOWER. AND THE THIRD AND VERY IMPORTANT, THE FLUORIDE IS EVAPORATING EASIER THAN THE WATER. SO WHEN WE SHOWER OR TAKE A BATH, WE ARE INGESTING CONCENTRATED -- A CONCENTRATED PORTION OF FLUORIDE WHICH IS NOT GOOD. SO THAT COMES TO THE FACT THAT BASICALLY WE ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT CONTROLLING HOW MUCH FLUORIDE WE ARE PUTTING IN OUR BODIES THROUGH DIFFERENT WAYS. SKIN, INHALING AND ALSO DRINKING -- THROUGH THE DRINKING WATER. AND, SEVEN, WITH YOU ASKED ABOUT THE QUANTITY OF FLUORIDE WHICH IS SAFE. NOBODY KNOWS THAT. BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT 500-MILLIGRAMS OF FLUORIDE IS ENOUGH TO KILL A CHILD. MY SECOND POINT IS THAT IT MAKES NO ECONOMIC SENSE TO SPEND 3, 4 MILLION OR 6 MILLION OR MORE WHEN WATER FLUORIDATION IS INCREASINGLY REJECTED BY COMMUNITIES WORLDWIDE. 98% OF WESTERN EUROPE REJECTED WATER FLUORIDATION AND SO HAVE MANY COMMUNITIES IN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA. IN CANADA, ONLY ALBERTA AND PARTS OF ONTARIO ARE STILL FLUORIDATING WATER. THREE. WATER FLUORIDATION SEEMS ILLEGAL TO ME. WATER FLUORIDATION IS BASED ON THE CLAIM OF PREVENTING CAVITIES, WHICH HAVE A MEDICAL CLAIM AND AS SUCH MAKING THESE CLAIMS INSTANTLY AND AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFORMS FLUORIDE INTO A DRUG. >> EXCUSE ME, MA'AM, YOUR TIME IS UP. CAN YOU DO A CONCLUDING COMMENT? >> YES. THE FIVE MINUTES? >> YOU CAN ONLY GET ANOTHER FIVE MINUTES IF MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE GIVE IT TO YOU. NOBODY'S PUT THEIR LIGHT ON TO GIVE YOU EXTRA TIME SO I NEED A CONCLUDING COMMENT THAT'S LESS THAN A MINUTE. IF YOU WISH, YOU CAN LEAVE A COPY OF YOUR PRESENTATION TOO. >> YES. SO BESIDES WHAT I HAVE PRESENTED SO FAR, FLUORIDATING THE WATER IS VIOLATING CANADIAN LAWS, MEDICAL LAWS AND HUMAN RIGHTS. SO MY KINDLY REQUEST IS THAT YOU DO PULL OUT RESEARCH ONE ENGINEER WHO HAS COME WITH A 3, 4 MILLION COST SO WE NEED TO HAVE A FIRM NUMBER TO TAKE A DECISION. AND, THIRD, I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO BE ON THE PANEL THAT FURTHER DISCUSSES THE ISSUE ON FLUORIDE AND I THINK I HAVE DONE MY HOMEWORK TO HAVE A POINT FOR THAT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, THANKS FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. THE NEXT PRESENTER IS -- NOT SURE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS, GRACE WRIGHT OR MELINDA MUSEME? ARE YOU A SINGLE OR A DOUBLE? WHICH ONE ARE YOU? WAS THIS AN EITHER OR? >> IT WAS GOING TO BE BOTH OF US, NOW IT'S ONE. HELLO, MY NAME IS GRACE WRIGHT. I WORK FOR THE ABORIGINAL HEALTH PROGRAM WITH ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. WHICH IS A PROVINCEWIDE PROGRAM COMMITTED TO THE DEVELOPMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION OF HEALTH SERVICES TO IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELLNESS CAPACITY AND ACCESS OF SERVICES FOR ABORIGINAL PEOPLE RESIDING IN ALBERTA. IN 2001, THERE WERE ALMOST 20.000 SELF-IDENTIFIED ABORIGINAL PEOPLE LIVING WITHIN THE CITY OF CALGARY. THE GROWTH RATE OF THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION IN CALGARY IS THE FASTEST IN CANADA. IF CURRENT GROWTH RATES CONTINUE, THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION WILL NEARLY TRIPLE TO 65.000 IN 2017. CONSISTENT FINDINGS ACROSS MANY STUDIES HAVE INDICATED THAT ABORIGINAL PEOPLE EXPERIENCED SUBSTANTIALLY GREATER MORTALITY AND MORBIDITY RATES AND POORER SELF-RATED HEALTH COMPARED TO OTHER ALBERTANS. THE CONSISTENT POOR HEALTH IS A CONCERN ACROSS CANADA. ABORIGINAL POPULATIONS HAVE THREE TO FIVE TIMES THE DENTAL DECAY RATES OF OTHER CANADIANS, AND MANY OF THE CHILDREN REQUIRE HOSPITAL CARE FOR DENTAL ABSCESSES. THE AVERAGE ABORIGINAL CHILD IN ALBERTA HAS MORE THAN TWICE AS MANY DECAYS, MISSING OR FILLED TEETH AND IS TWICE AS LIKELY TO HAVE UNTREATED DECAY COMPARED TO THE AVERAGE NONABORIGINAL CHILD. FIRST NATIONS AND INUIT INDIVIDUALS RECOGNIZED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO HAVE TREATY RIGHTS ARE ELIGIBLE ONLY FOR LIMITED ORAL AND DENTAL INSURANCE SERVICES. THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF NONREGISTERED FIRST NATIONS PEOPLE AND METIS PEOPLE RESIDING IN CALGARY WHO ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR ANY BENEFITS FROM THIS PROGRAM. A MAJOR CONCERN, THEN, IS ACCESS TO ORAL AND DENTAL SERVICES WHICH IS SEVERELY IMPACTED BY LACK OF INSURANCE AS A RESULT OF INCOME INEQUITY. THE MAJORITY OF URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE IN CALGARY STRUGGLE WITH POVERTY. IN 2006, THE MEDIAN INCOME FOR ABORIGINAL PEOPLE WAS $18.962. 30% LOWER THAN THE 27.000 MEDIAN INCOME FOR THE REST OF CANADIANS. THE INCOME GAP IS $7,083 HIGHER IN URBAN SETTINGS. THIS MEANS URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE HAVE A 50% LESS MEDIAN INCOME THAN OTHER CANADIANS IN URBAN SETTINGS. ABOUT A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION IN CANADA USUALLY THOSE WITH LOW INCOMES GO TO DENTISTS FOR LITTLE MORE THAN EMERGENCY CARE. THIS IS MIRRORED BY THE ABORIGINAL COMMUNITY, ALBEIT A MUCH HIGHER RATE AND ALTHOUGH NOT DUE SOLELY TO LOW INCOME, THIS BEHAVIOUR DOES RAISE CONCERNS ABOUT ACCESS TO DENTAL SERVICES GENERALLY. WE KNOW THAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS BENEFICIAL TO ALL. AS A MEASURE THAT IS EQUALLY ACCESSIBLE TO ALL, FLUORIDATION REACHES THOSE IN GREATEST NEED AND AT HIGHEST RISK BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS EASY ACCESS TO IT, WATER FLUORIDATION IS AN EFFECTIVE AND SOCIALLY EQUITABLE STRATEGY FOR REDUCING TOOTH DECAY ACROSS OUR COMMUNITIES. THERE ARE SEVERAL CAUSES FOR THE POOR ORAL HEALTH OF URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE. TODAY, HOWEVER, WE HIGHLIGHTED THE OBVIOUS FOR URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE. INCOME INEQUITY, POVERTY AND LACK OF ACCESS TO SERVICES. WATER FLUORIDATION IN THE FACE OF LACK OF ACCESS TO ORAL AND DENTAL SERVICES BY ABORIGINAL PEOPLE CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED AS AN EFFECTIVE PREVENTIVE STRATEGY AGAINST THE PERSISTENT POOR ORAL HEALTH OF URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE RESIDING IN CALGARY. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN FARRELL? >> THANK YOU. EXCUSE ME. I'M SORRY. I PUT MY LIGHT ON LATE. I CAN'T RESIST. YES, THERE IS NO QUESTION URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE ARE IN A DESPERATE STATE FOR A WHOLE SERIES OF REASONS. YOU'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT FLUORIDE WILL SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS. >> NO, NOT SOLVE THEM. BUT IT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE DENTAL HEALTH OF THE URBAN ABORIGINAL PEOPLE. >> AND IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT? AS WE'RE SEEING, POVERTY -- A LOT OF THE DENTAL DECAY HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH POVERTY, WHETHER IT'S NUTRITION, HYGIENE, A WHOLE MYRIAD OF ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH POVERTY. BUT THE CITIES IN THE STATES WHO HAVE BEEN FLUORIDATING FOR MUCH, MUCH LONGER THAN WE HAVE, WHO ARE STILL DEALING WITH A DENTAL HEALTH CRISIS, FLUORIDE ISN'T A PANACEA. AND I FIND IT OFFENSIVE TO THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT THINK IT IS. SO AS LONG AS WE CAN AGREE THAT THERE'S MUCH MORE WORK TO BE DONE IN THE ISSUE OF POVERTY THAN SIMPLY FLUORIDATING THE WATER. WE DON'T JUST PUT FLUORIDE IN THE WATER AND THEN, WE'RE DONE. >> NO, THAT WAS NOT MY SUGGESTION. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN KEATING, YOU HAVE A QUESTION? >> THANK YOU, CHAIR. THE STATISTICS, IS THAT TODAY'S -- OR IN REAL TIME SORT OF WHETHER I MEAN TODAY OR IN THE LAST WHILE? >> WHICH STATISTICS -- >> THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT -- >> THE INCOME? >> THE ORAL HEALTH OF URBAN ABORIGINALS AND HOW IT IS I THINK YOU SAID THREE TIMES -- >> I BELIEVE THAT'S FROM 2006. >> SO THAT HAPPENED DURING FLORIDDIZATION OF WATER. >> WOULD THERE NOT BE A BETTER PROGRAM TO HELP THEM RATHER THAN JUST CONTINUING THE COURSE? >> THERE PROBABLY ARE MANY PROGRAMS THAT COULD HELP WITH DENTAL IF THEY HAD ACCESS TO A DENTIST REGULARLY, THAT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL. BUT FLUORIDATION IN THE WATER IS SIMPLY ONE POSITIVE STEP. >> BUT I GUESS GOING BACK TO THE SECOND PART OF THE MOTION IS IF WE MAKE THE DECISION TO REMOVE IT, AND TAKE THOSE FUNDS AND PUT THEM INTO A PROGRAM THAT IS GOING TO HELP THOSE IN MOST NEED, WOULD THAT NOT BE BETTER THAN JUST LEAVING IT AS IT IS? >> IS THERE A PROGRAM NOW THAT THEY'RE PLANNING ON DOING? OR IS THIS JUST... >> WELL, THE SECOND PART OF THE MOTION SAYS LOOK INTO THE FACT OF TAKING THE MONEYS THAT IS NOW SPENT AND PUTTING IT INTO A PROGRAM TO HELP THOSE IN MOST NEED. >> THAT WOULD BE GREAT. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. NEXT SPEAKER IS JUDY JOHNSON. JUDY JOHNSON. OKAY. AFTER THAT IT'S KEVIN TAYLOR. KEVIN TAYLOR. CHRIS HARPER. >> GOOD MORNING -- OR AFTERNOON, ACTUALLY. IT WAS MORNING WHEN I GOT HERE. MY NAME IS CHRIS HARPER AND I'M JUST STANDING BEFORE YOU AS A CITIZEN, NOT REPRESENTING ANY OF THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT I WORK WITH IN THE COMMUNITY. FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO SAY THAT I LOVE FLUORIDE. I HAVE BEEN -- WHEN I GREW UP IN ONTARIO IN THUNDER BAY, WE HAD A FLUORIDATION PROGRAM AT OUR SCHOOL WHERE EVERY FEW WEEKS WE WOULD GO LINE UP IN THE HALLWAY AND WE WOULD SWISH IT IN OUR MOUTHS AND SPIT IT OUT, AND I DO HAVE FLUOROSIS OF MY TEETH OR WHAT APPEAR TO BE SOME OF THE SYMPTOMS OF IT, SO DOES MY SISTER, SO DOES MY BROTHER. MY PARENTS DO NOT. MANY OF MY COHORTS IN THUNDER BAY DO HAVE THE WHITE MARKS ON OUR TEETH AND SOMETIMES THE PERCEPTION IS I HAVE POOR DENTAL HEALTH BECAUSE OF THAT. THAT IS NOT TRUE. I DO FLOSS AND BRUSH REGULARLY, ALWAYS HAVE. MY PARENTS INSTILLED THOSE VALUES IN US. YET I DO HAVE A PARTIAL GOLD TOOTH WHICH ACCORDING TO THE STOCK MARKET WILL BE VERY VALUABLE BY THE TIME I RETIRE. BUT I LOVE FLUORIDE. BUT I LOVE FLUORIDE IN THE CORRECT DOSE. WHEN I GO TO THE DENTIST, MY DENTIST IS VERY PARTICULAR ABOUT USING THE LITTLE TRAYS AND YOU CAN PICK THE FLAVOUR, NASTY, NASTIER AND THEN THERE'S MINT WHICH IS THE ONLY ONE THAT SEEMS SENSIBLE TO PUT IN MY MOUTH. AND SO MY DENTIST USES THE PROPER DOSE. I HAVE NEVER BEEN TOLD BY MY DENTIST OR MEDICAL PRACTITIONER DRINK LOTS OF TAP WATER, DON'T DRINK BOTTLED WATER BECAUSE TAP WATER HAS FLUORIDE. NO DENTIST OR DOCTOR HAS EVER TOLD ME THAT IN MY LIFE. IF THERE ARE SO MANY BENEFITS, I'M CURIOUS WERE PROFESSIONALS ARE NOT ENCOURAGING PATIENTS TO DRINK TAP WATER DIRECTLY. MUNICIPAL WATER IS MADE TO SEEM SORT OF DIRTY AND IMPROPER. AND SO I'M ALL ABOUT THE PROPER DOSAGE AND I'M ALSO -- I WAS ALSO GIVEN BY GOD WHEN I WAS BORN A MIND AND A BODY. AND MY BODY TELLS ME WHEN IT'S NOT FEELING WELL BUT MY MIND CAN INTERPRET THE ENVIRONMENT AROUND ME. THERE HAVE BEEN THE ASSERTION THAT THESE ARE FACTS, IT IS A FACT THAT FLUORIDATED WATER IS IN FACT BENEFICIAL FOR HUMAN HEALTH. THAT MAY VERY WELL BE TRUE. BUT AS Dr. NICK POINTED OUT, IT MAY ALSO BE EQUALLY AS LIKELY THAT IT IS NOT. AND SO WHEN IT COMES TO MY MIND, MY MIND TELLS ME THAT THERE'S CONFLICTING INFORMATION. AND WHEN I HAVE CONFLICTING INFORMATION I'M CURIOUS FOR MORE FACTS AND WELCOMING THE CAUTION. BECAUSE I DON'T REALLY WANT TO BE PUTTING THINGS IN MY BODY THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND. MANY OF US DO THAT ANYWAY. HOWEVER WHETHER IT COMES TO WATER, WATER IS A BASIC FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENT FOR LIFE. I NEED WATER TO LIVE, WE ALL NEED WATER TO LIVE. BE IT WATER FROM COFFEE, POP, TAPS, LITTLE GREEN BOTTLES IN THE SHOPPING STORES AND AT RESTAURANTS. BUT WATER IS NECESSARY TO LIVE. THERE'S A LOT OF CONFLICTING INFORMATION THAT I'M OBSERVING AND TODAY PROVED THAT EVEN FURTHER FOR MYSELF. POVERTY AND ACCESS TO DENTAL CARE, I THINK THAT WHEN IT COMES TO POVERTY THE ISSUE IS LESS ABOUT FLUORIDE IN WATER AND MORE ABOUT THE FACT THAT I THINK EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN POVERTY IN ALBERTA, WE DO HAVE A VERY, VERY HIGH COST TO PROPER AND DILIGENT DENTAL CARE IN THIS PROVINCE. AND THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DUE TO THE DEREGULATION OF THE FEE GUIDE BUT I THINK ACCESS HAS CREATED THE NECESSITY TO MASS MEDICATE PERHAPS THE POPULATION AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOOD. I THINK IF WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO PROPER DENTAL CARE, THEY SHOULD GET THAT FROM A DENTIST AND NOT FROM THEIR TAP. ESPECIALLY HAD THERE'S CONFLICTING INFORMATION REGARDING THE MERITS AND SAFETY AND THE BENEFITS OF WHAT COMES OUT OF OUR TAP WATER. I ALSO THINK THAT IT'S A LITTLE BIT CONTRADICTORY THAT WE EXTOL THE VALUES OF FLUORIDE IN WATER WHILE AT THE SAME TIME KIDS AT SCHOOL FOLLOW THEIR GLASS OF WATER OR BOTTLE EVER WATER WITH A CHASER OF COKE OR PEPSI. I THINK THAT THAT'S A LITTLE BIT CONTRADICTORY. IF WE REALLY HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN THE HEALTH OF OUR KIDS, WE WOULD LOOK AT THIS FROM THE BIG PICTURE AND NOT SIMPLY FROM THE ISSUE OF FLUORIDE IN WATER. THERE'S MANY OTHER WAYS TO PREVENT CAVITIES SUCH AS BRUSHING AND FLOSSING, NOT EATING TOO MANY SUGARS AND WHAT NOT WHICH AS WE DISCUSSED TODAY ALREADY ARE VERY PREVALENT IN OUR FOOD IN NORTH AMERICA. AND IF FLUORIDE WAS THE SOLUTION TO THAT, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. I'M NOT CONVINCED IT IS. THE CONFLICTING INFORMATION TELLS ME THAT PERHAPS THERE IS FURTHER INVESTIGATION THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. I WOULD ALSO QUESTION THE ROLE OF THE CITY IN FLUORIDATION. I DO FEEL SORRY THAT COMMITTEE AS WELL AS COUNCIL HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE TASK OF HAVING TO DECIDE THIS. IN MY OPINION, I HAVE AS I STATED A MIND AND I HAVE A BODY. MY MIND IS VERY CAPABLE OF APPLYING COMMON SENSE TO THE INFORMATION THAT I SEE IN THE WORLD. AND MANY OF US HAVE THAT CAPABILITY. AND ARE PRIVILEGED TO HAVE THAT. HOWEVER, I THINK THAT THE ROLE OF HEALTH SERVICES IN THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE TO FACILITATE UNDERSTANDING SO THAT I CAN MAKE MY OWN CHOICES FOR MY BODY IN AN INFORMED MANNER AS OPPOSED TO SIMPLY STATING THAT REPORTS FROM EUROPE AND THE STATES ARE GOOD, THEREFORE IN CANADA WE SHOULD PUT FLUORIDE IN OUR WATER. GIVE ME FACTS AND ALLOW ME TO MAKE THE DECISION. THAT'S WHAT I EXPECT FROM MY DOCTOR. I DON'T EXPECT MY GOVERNMENT TO TELL ME I NEED TO CONSUME FLUORIDE. I EXPECT MY DOCTOR TO TELL ME I NEED TO CONSUME FLUORIDE. I SEE MY TIME IS UP ALDERMAN JONES. >> IF YOU CAN DO A CONCLUDING STATEMENT. >> MY CONCLUDING STATEMENT IS THAT I'M CAPABLE OF MAKING CHOICES WITH THE RIGHT INFORMATION. MY PERSPECTIVE IS THAT GOVERNMENT AND MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS, THEIR ROLE IS TO PROVIDE ME WITH THAT INFORMATION SO I CAN MAKE AN INFORMED CHOICE. AND FRANKLY IF PEOPLE WANT FLUORIDATED WATER, LET'S PUT THAT IN BOTTLES BECAUSE I THINK THAT WATER SHOULD BE CLEAN WATER AND AS CLOSE TO THE SOURCE AS POSSIBLE SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO ALL CALGARIANS AND ALBERTANS AND WE CAN PUT THE OTHER STUFF INTO BOTTLES RATHER THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND WHICH IS WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. >> THANK YOU, Mr. HARPER. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? SEEING NONE, THANK YOU. COMMITTEE, WE ARE RECESSED TO 3:45. >> CALL THE MEETING BACK TO ORDER. AND MY NEXT SPEAKER IS BRYCE ADAMSON. BRYCE ADAMSON. HE'S RIGHT THERE. >> GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNCILLORS OF THE CITY OF CALGARY. I'M HERE AS THE PAST PRESIDENT OF THE CALGARY AND DISTRICT DENTAL SOCIETY. AT OUR JANUARY MEETING, 140 DENTISTS VOTED IN FAVOUR OF A MOTION TO WRITE A LETTER TO COUNCIL WHICH I HAVE HERE AND SPEAK TO YOU IN PERSON WITH THE OPINION THAT FLUORIDATION SHOULD REMAIN. FLUORIDATION BUYS TIME. TIME TO EDUCATE, PROVIDE DENTAL TREATMENT AND REDUCE THE PAIN AND SUFFERING CAUSED BY EARLY CHILDHOOD DECAY. I WILL SHOW YOU THE HUMAN COST OF THIS ENTIRELY PREVENTIBLE DISEASE AND THE ROLE FLUORIDATION PLAYS IN IT. IN HIGH SCHOOL, I LEARNED TWO THINGS: ONE, I WAS GOOD AT SCIENCE, AND, TWO, I WAS BAD AT CARDS. THE PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS HAS FLUORIDE ON THE TOP RIGHT CORNER. AND THAT IS THE MOST REACTIVE ELEMENT. FLUORIDE IS THE ANTIION OF FLUORENE. I'M NOT PARTICULARLY GOOD AT CARDS SO WHEN I'M PLAYING I LIKE GAMES WHERE THERE'S A JOKER OR WILD CARD. IF THE PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS WERE A DECK OF CARDS, FLUORIDE WOULD BE THE JOKER. WHAT DEFINES A TRUE DENTAL EMERGENCY? FOR ME A TRUE DENTAL EMERGENCY IS A PHONE CALL FROM A PARENT WITH A CHILD WHO IS UP AT NIGHT, A CHILD UNDER THE AGE OF 5 WHO IS UNABLE TO SLEEP BECAUSE OF THE SEVERE PAIN CAUSE BID ONE OR MORE SEVERELY DECAYED AND NOW INFECTED TEETH. THAT ALONE IS TRAGIC. BUT SOMETIMES THE TRAGEDY DOESN'T END THERE. CONSIDER ONE OR TWO INCREASINGLY TIRED AND FRUSTRATED PARENTS. NORMALLY THESE PEOPLE ARE CALM, RATIONAL HARD-WORKING MEMBERS OF SOCIETY. BUT THEY'RE GROWING IMPATIENT. THEY'RE GROWING IMPATIENT BECAUSE OF THE SLEEPINESS AND THE SLEEPINESS IS MAKING THEM IRRATIONAL. IRRATIONAL ENOUGH THAT A HUSBAND WOULD STRIKE HIS WIFE. WHAT FOR? FOR ALLOWING THEIR CHILD TO CONTINUE TO SCREAM ROBBING HEM OF HIS SLEEP MAKING HIM FEAR OF LOSING HIS JOB. IRRATION ENOUGH FOR THE WIFE OF THAT HUSBAND TO START PUTTING ALCOHOL IN THE CHILD'S FORMULA OR JUICE IN ORDER TO ALLOW THEM TO SLEEP AND TO AVOID YET ANOTHER BEATING. OR WORSE YET, EITHER PARENT WHO WOULD PICK UP AN INCONSOLABLE CHILD AND SHAKE THEM UNTIL THEY ARE UNRESPONSIVE IN A FIT OF FRUSTRATION AND RAGE. THIS IS NOT HYPERBOLE. THIS IS A SCENARIO THAT DOES AND CAN OCCUR. AND IT CAN BE PREVENTED BY THREE THINGS: EDUCATION, CARE AND TIMELY ACCESS TO IT, AND FLUORIDATION. FLUORIDE ALONE WILL NOT PREVENT TOOTH DECAY. OUR MODERN DEET DIETS ARE INSIDI COULDN'T TELLLY HARD ON OUR TEETH. FLUORIDE SLOWS DOWN TOOTH DECAY. IT GIVES ME TIME TO WATCH A SMALL CAVITY ON A YOUNG PERSON FOR SIX TO 12 MONTHS TO SEE IF THE BODY CAN HEAL ITSELF WITH IMPROVED BRUSHING AND DIET AT HOME. TIME FOR CHILDREN WITH MULTIPLE CAVITIES TO IDLE PATIENTLY ON A WAITING LIST FOR THREE OR FOUR MONTHS FOR HOSPITAL TIME TO BE TREATED BY A PEDIATRIC DENTIST SAFELY UNDER SEDATION SAFELY FICTION ALL THE TEETH AT -- FIX ALL THE TEETH AT ONCE. IT GIVES US TIME TO TREAT THESE TEETH MORE CONSERVATIVELY AND THUS LESS EXPENSIVELY. VANCOUVER HAS NEVER HAD FLUORIDE IN THEIR WATER. MY COLLEAGUES THERE CANNOT WAIT TO SEE IF THAT SMALL CAVITY WILL GET BETTER. THEY MUST CUT SOONER AND THEREFORE THEY MUST CUT MORE OFTEN. AND TOO OFTEN, THEY MUST CUT DEEPER. DEEPER INTO THE CHILD'S TOOTH AND DEEPER INTO THOSE PARENTS' WALLETS. I DO NOT NEED A JOKER TO PLAY CARDS. I WANT A JOKER BECAUSE IT IMPROVES MY ODDS OF WINNING. YOU DO NOT NEED FLUORIDATION TO HAVE A SAFE DRINKING WATER SUPPLY. YOU WANT FLUORIDATION IN YOUR WATER IF YOU PUT A CHILD'S WELLNESS BEFORE YOUR OWN. AS A DENNIST I FEEL THE REAL JOKER HERE IS ME. I AND MY COLLEAGUES WOULD BE CONSIDERABLY BUSY WITHIN A SHORT FIVE TO SEVEN YEARS WITHOUT FLUORIDATION. THAT IS NOT WHY I AM HERE. I AM HERE TODAY BECAUSE I AM BETTER AT SCIENCE THAN I AM AT CARDS. SCIENCE HAS SHOWN FLUORIDATION TO REDUCE THE IMPACT, COSTS AND SOCIETAL PAIN THAT IS CAUSED BY EARLY CHILDHOOD DECAY. WHEN I DRINK CALGARY WATER, I WANT FLUORIDE IN IT. I WANT FLUORIDE IN IT FOR MY TWO SONS AGES 3 AND 2 MONTHS OLD, AND IF YOU CARE ABOUT DOING YOUR PART IN THE PREVENTION OF THE MISERY OF CHILDHOOD DECAY, YOU'LL WANT FLUORIDE IN YOUR CITY WATER TOO. >> IS THAT YOUR PRESENTATION? >> THAT'S THE END OF IT. THANK YOU. >> IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> YOU BRING UP YOUR VANCOUVER COLLEAGUES WHEN DISCUSSING DENTAL DECAY. WE'VE HEARD HERE AND SEEN STUDIES THAT THE DENTAL RATE OR DENTAL DECAY RATE IN VANCOUVER AND/OR B.C. IS NO MAJOR VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN DENTAL DECAY BETWEEN A NONFLUORIDATED LOCATION AND US BEING FLUORIDATED. DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS WITH REGARDS TO THIS? >> I'M HERE AS THE MAN IN THE TRENCHES. THE PERSON WHO'S DEALING WITH DECAY AND HELPING MY PATIENTS TOWARDS BETTER ORAL HEALTH. AND AS THAT, I DO TALK TO MY COLLEAGUES. AND ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES IS A PEDIATRIC DENTIST IN HOPE, B.C., AND THE MAJORITY OF HIS POPULATION -- HIS PATIENT POPULATION BEING FROM VANCOUVER. IF I'M ALLOWED TO TELL A STORY HE SHARED WITH ME. Dr. JOHNSTON WAS ONCE HEAD OF THE PEDIATRIC DENTAL DEPARTMENT AT SICK KIDS IN TORONTO AND SUBSEQUENTLY MOVED TO VANCOUVER. WHEN Dr. JOHNSTON FIRST BEGAN WORKING, HE KIND OF FELT HIS COLLEAGUES WERE OVERTREATING THE PATIENTS. HE WONDERED WHY THEY WERE INTERVENING SO EARLY. SOMETHING HE WOULD NORMALLY WATCH TO SEE IF IT WOULD CHANGE OR GET WORSE. IN TORONTO, THEY WERE TREATING IN VANCOUVER. AND A YEAR LATER HE UNDERTSOOD WHY. BECAUSE THE THINGS HE DID WATCH BLEW UP ON HIM. DECAY JUST MOVED MORE AGGRESSIVELY IN VANCOUVER COMPARED TO HIS EXPERIENCE IN TORONTO. >> OKAY. YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE CONFERENCE THAT YOU WERE MENTIONING, 140 VOTED IN FAVOUR OF KEEPING FLUORIDE IN THE WATER. HOW MANY VOTED AGAINST, OR HOW MANY ABSTAINED? >> THERE WERE NO ABSTENTIONS. >> IT WAS UNANIMOUS? >> IT WAS UNANIMOUS. IT WAS 140 WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE AT THAT MEETING THAT DAY. THE CALGARY DISTRICT DENTAL SOCIETY HAS APPROXIMATELY 650 MEMBERS. OF THE 850 THAT WHY IN CALGARY. SO THAT'S JUST A REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF THAT DAY. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. THANKS FOR COMING OUT TODAY. >> YOU'RE WELCOME. >> THANK YOU. SEE NOTHING OTHER QUESTIONS. MY NEXT SPEAKER IS JACQUELINE VAN MALLSON. GOOD AFTERNOON, MEMBERS OF COUNCIL. MY NAME IS JACQUELINE VAN NELSON AND I'M A DENTAL HYGENIST WITH MOSAIC DENTAL CARE NETWORK. WE WORK TOGETHER TO PROVIDE MEDICAL CARE. MY ROLE WITHIN MOSAIC PCN IS TO IMPROVE THE ORAL HEALTH OF CHILDREN IN EAST CALGARY. WE'VE CHOSEN TO FOCUS ON EAST CALGARY RECOGNIZING THAT THIS POPULATION HAS HIGHER LEVELS OF DENTAL DISEASE. AT THE HEART OF THE ISSUE IS THE IMPORTANCE THAT A CHILD'S ORAL HEALTH HAS ON THEIR OVERALL HEALTH. DENTAL CAVITIES AS A RESULT OF A BACTERIAL INFECTION. IF CAVITIES ARE NOT TREATED THE INFECTION CAN SPREAD TO OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY, CAUSE FEVER, PAIN AND SWELLING. IN SEVERE CASE, THE INFECTION CAN ENTER THE BLOOD STREAM AND CAUSE SEPSIS. EVERY DAY IN CALGARY, THERE ARE CHILDREN WHO CANNOT PAY ATTENTION IN SCHOOL, WHO CANNOT FALL ASLEEP AT NIGHT BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOOTH PAIN. RESEARCH HAS LINKED DENTAL DECAY IN BABY TEETH WITH MANY IMPACTS ON A CHILD'S OVERALL HEALTH INCLUDING PROBLEMS WITH NUTRITION, SPEECH DEVELOPMENT, LEARNING AS WELL AS EFFECTS ON THE CHILD'S ADULT TEETH. SEVERE DENTAL DECAY HAS BEEN LINKED WITH FAILURE TO THRIVE. EARLY CHILDHOOD CARRIES HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS THE MOST COMMON CHRONIC CHILDHOOD DISEASE. IT IS MORE COMMON THAT ASTHMA, HAY FEVER AND DIABETES. IN CALGARY, THE PREVALENCE OF, DENTAL DECAY IN CHILDRENS BETWEEN AGES 1 AND 4 IS 11%. IN EAST CALGARY, 1 IN 4 CHILDREN EXPERIENCE DENTAL DECAY BEFORE AGE 5. MOST IMPORTANTLY, THIS DISEASE IS LARGELY PREVENTIBLE. SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS OF WATER FLUORIDATION SUPPORT ITS EFFECTIVE FEST A SAFETY TO REDUCE CAVITIES. SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS LOOK AT AWFUL THE RESEARCH INCLUDING STUDIES ABOUT THE BENEFITS AND THE POSSIBLE ADVERSE EFFECTS OF FLUORIDATION AS WELL AS THE QUALITY AND THE QUANTITY OF THE LITERATURE WITH THE DELIBERATE INTENT TO ELIMINATE INVESTIGATOR BIAS AND DETERMINE BEST EVIDENCE. SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS IN PREVENTS CAVITIES LOOK AT BOTH THE IMPACT ON DENTAL DECAY WHERE WATER FLUORIDATION HAS BEEN INSTITUTED AND WHERE IT'S BEEN REMOVED. THE RESULTS SHOW THE SAME THING THE INTRODUCTION OF WATER FLUORIDATION IS STRONGLY ASSOCIATED WITH AN INCREASE IN THE PERCENTAGE OF CAVITY-FREE CHILDREN BY APPROXIMATELY 15%. ANOTHER DENTAL INDEX CALLED DMFT IS USED TO DESCRIBE THE PREVALENCE OF DECAY IN AN INDIVIDUAL BY LOOKING AT THE NUMBER OF DID HE KAYED MISSING AND -- DECAYED MISSING AND FAILED TEETH PERFOR. ON AVERAGE, 2.3 FEWER TEETH ARE AFFECTED ACCORDING TO SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS. INDIVIDUAL STUDIES CONTINUE TO SHOW THAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS COST-EFFECTIVE. THE CENTRE FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION REPORTS THAT FOR EVERY DOLLAR SPENT ON FLUORIDATION, ON AVERAGE SAVES $38 IN ASSOCIATED DENTAL BILLS. OVER A LIFETIME, THE COST OF FLUORIDATION IS TYPICALLY LESS THAN THE COST OF A DENTAL FILLING. PROPONENTS OF REMOVING WATER FLUORIDATION HAVE SUGGESTED ALTERNATE METHODS OF DELIVERY FOR DISADVANTAGED POPULATIONS. ALTERNATE METHODS MAY NOT MITIGATE THE RISK OF DENTAL DECAY AS EFFECTIVELY AS FLUORIDATION. LITERATURE RECOMMENDS FLUORIDATION IN COMBINATION WITH ADJUNCTIVE TOPICAL FLUORIDE SUCH AS FLUORIDE VARNISH. AT-RISK POPULATIONS MAY FAIL TO UTILIZE ALTERNATE METHOD OF FLUORIDE BECAUSE OF LANGUAGE, ECONOMIC CONSTRAINTS. PRIOR TO THE INTRODUCTION OF FLUORIDATION IN CALGARY, FLUORIDE DROPS WERE MADE AVAILABLE AS AN ALTERNATIVE. PARTICIPATION IN THE FLUORIDE DROP PROGRAM WAS ESTIMATED TO BE LESS THAN 20%. CAN BE ASSUMED THAT MANY AT RISK CHILDREN DO NOT HAVE ADEQUATE CHILDREN TO THE FLUORIDE THROUGH THESE PREVENTIVE PROGRAMS. FLUORIDE IS PROVEN TO BE AN EFFECTIVE PREVENTIVE MECHANISM TO REDUCE THE INCIDENCE OF CAVITIES. WHILE THE BENEFITS OF FLUORIDATION ARE ACHIEVED FOR THE POPULATION IN ITS ENTIRETY, THE EFFECTS ARE MOST IMPACTFUL FOR DISADVANTAGED POPULATIONS. MY CODE OF ETHICS REQUIRES THAT THE ACT IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF MY PATIENT. I FEEL URGED TO ASK COUNCIL TO RETAIN WATER FLUORIDATION. >> THANK YOU. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN KEATING. >> IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A QUESTION I ASKED SOME TIME AGO, YOU BROUGHT IT UP, DECAY IS CAUSED BY BACTERIA IN THE MOUTH OR AROUND THE TEETH. FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, HOW DOES FLUORIDE INHIBIT THAT BUILDUP OR CAN YOU ANSWER THAT? >> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. DECAY IS A MULTIFACTOR DISEASE. IN ORDER TO HAVE A CAVITY, YOU NEED TO HAVE A TOOTH. YOU NEED TO HAVE A SOURCE OF BACTERIA, YOU NEED TO HAVE A SOURCE OF FERMENTABLE CARBOHYDRATE. IN LOOKING AND -- THE APPROACH THAT WE TAKE TO PREVENTING CAVITIES IS AS WELL MULTIFACTOR. WE WANT TO KEEL MOMS HEALTHY SO THAT THE BACTERIA ISN'T TRANSFERRED TO BABY. IT'S FLUORIDE THAT OFFERS A PROTECTIVE EFFECT IN TERMS OF MAKING THE ENAMEL CRYSTAL MORE -- LESS SOLUBLE TO ACIDS CAUSED BY THE BACTERIA. IN HIGH CONCENTRATIONS, THERE'S LITERATURE THAT SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS A BACTERIACIDAL EFFECT. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> I'M NOT SURE I UNDERTSOOD THAT LAST PART, THE BACTERIAL SIDE EFFECT? >> THAT IN HIGH CONCENTRATIONS, WHICH IS LESS RELEVANT FOR THE CONVERSATION AROUND WATER FLUORIDATION, AND MORE SO AROUND ADJUNCTIVE TOPICAL SUCH AS A FLUORIDE VARNISH THAT IT REDUCES THE LEVEL OF BACTERIA. AFFECTS THE PLAQUE TO REDUCE THE LEVEL OF BACTERIA. >> I WANT TO GET BACK TO]p THE QUESTION OF INFANTS AND YOUNG CHILDREN AND THE DOSAGE. BECAUSE YOU WORK WITH THIS SPECIFICALLY. WHAT ADVICE DO YOU GIVE FAMILIES, GIVEN THAT FLUORIDE IS IN THE WATER AND HOW DO YOU RECOMMEND THEY CONTROL THAT? >> THE -- IN TERMS OF YOUNG INFANTS, WE LOOK AGAIN, REGARDLESS OF AGE, TO DIETARY REFERENCE AND INTAKING FOR FLUORIDE. THEY EXIST FOR MANY NUTRIENTS, VITAMIN A, VITAMIN D AND INCLUDING FLUORIDE. FOR CHILDREN AGE 1 TO 3, THE RECOMMENDATION IS 1.3 MILLIGRAMS PER DAY. SO IN DISCUSSION WITH PARENTS, WE LOOK TO THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, HEALTH CANADA, CANADIAN DENTAL INSTITUTION -- OR CANADIAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION, THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRIC DENTISTRY WHICH ARE MANDATED TO PROVIDE SAFE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR PUBLIC. WITH RESPECT TO INFANTS, THE CURRENT RECOMMENDATION AROUND FORMULA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH HAS COME UP IN DISCUSSION TODAY, IS THAT WITH THE WATER LEVEL AT .7 PPM, RECONSTITUTING INFANT FORMULA IS SAFE. THE RECOMMENDATION AS WELL AROUND TOOTHPASTE, BECAUSE CHILDREN MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SPIT OUT TOOTHPASTE AT A YOUNG AGE AND THE CONCERN WAS SWALLOWING EXCESS TOOTHPASTE IS ALSO VERY TRUE AND VERY REAL. SO WITH PATIENTS, WE'D AGAIN ARTICULATE THE AMOUNT OF TOOTHPASTE MUST BE CONTROLLED FOR YOUNG INFANTS. DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? >> YES, I THINK IT DOES. I'M THINKING ALSO THOUGH OF JUICES AND POP. NOW, WE'VE HEARD THAT THERE'S SOCIO-ECONOMIC FACTORS RELATED TO THIS, AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SPECIFICALLY WORKING IN THE AREA THAT YOU DO. BUT FOR THAT POPULATION, A LOT OF TIMES WE HEAR -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S FACT OR NOT, THAT THERE'S A TENDENCY TO USE CHEAP JUICES OR RECONSTITUTED JUICES OR WATER. SO I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, ARE YOU FACTORING IN WHAT'S IN THOSE PRODUCTS AS WELL IF THEY'RE MADE IN CALGARY, THEY'VE GOT FLUORIDE IN THEM TOO? >> DEFINITELY. A DOCUMENT PUBLISHED FROM HEALTH CANADA RECENTLY -- LET ME JUST PULL UP THE TITLE SO I'M REFERENCING IT ACCURATELY FOR YOU. FLUORIDE IN DRINKING WATER WHICH IS A DOCUMENT THAT WENT OUT TO PUBLIC FOR COMMENT, IT RECOGNIZED THAT THERE ARE OTHER SOURCES OF FLUORIDE, AND IN MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS RELATED TO THE DOSE FROM WATER LOOKED AND CONSIDERED THAT THERE WERE ALTERNATE SOURCES IN FRUIT JUICES, IN THE FOOD, FLUORIDE THAT FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE. >> SO YOU'RE NOT CONCERNED AT ALL THAT THESE CHILDREN ARE GETTING TOO MUCH. >> NO. I AM NOT. >> AND YOU'RE NOT CONCERNED THAT IT'S HARMFUL TO THEM IN ANY WAY. >> NO, I AM NOT. SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS CONTINUE TO REPORT THAT DENTAL FLUOROSIS IS THE ONLY ADVERSE EFFECT OF FLUORIDE. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. SEE NOTHING FURTHER QUESTIONS. OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS GRAHAM GREEDS. GRAHAM GREEDS. NEXT SPEAKER IS Dr. BRENT FRIESEN. >> WOULD I BE ABLE TO HAVE THE PROJECTOR ON, PLEASE? MY NAME IS Dr. BRENT FRIESEN. I'M MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH WITH ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. AND LEAD MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH WITHIN ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES FOR ENVIRONMENTAL PUBLIC HEALTH. I HAVE PAST HISTORY IN TERMS OF BEING A STRONG ADVOCATE FOR PROTECTION OF WATER SUPPLIES IN THE PROVINCE AND IN PARTICULAR PROTECTION OF THE WATER SUPPLY FOR THE CITY OF CALGARY THROUGH ADVOCACY AROUND THE -- BOTH THE BOW RIVER AND ELBOW RIVER TO PROTECT THE QUALITY OF THE RAW WATER THAT'S USED FOR OUR DRINKING WATER SUPPLY. FLUORIDE IS RECOGNIZED AS A KEY FACTOR IN ORAL HEALTH. AND THAT RESEARCH CONSISTENTLY SHOWS COMMUNITIES WITH WATER FLUORIDATION HAVE BETTER ORAL HEALTH THAN COMMUNITIES WITH LOW WATER FLUORIDE LEVELS. DOCTOR ANDRE CORRIVEAU, THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH FOR THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA STRONGLY ENDORSES WATER FLUORIDATION. I KNOW THAT YOU'VE HEARD FROM OTHERS ABOUT THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS, BUT, AGAIN, JUST WANTED TO REENFORCE THOSE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS WITH YOU. AND HIGHLIGHT THE CURRENT NATURE OF THOSE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS. SO, AGAIN, THERE'S BEEN THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THROUGH THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION IN 2006. THE AUSTRALIAN REVIEW IN 2007. HEALTH CANADA'S REVIEW IN 2009. AND THEN MORE RECENTLY REVIEWS IN THE U.S. BY THE CENTRES FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND THE U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY. AND, AGAIN, THE REVIEWS BY ALL OF THESE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES OR SCIENTIFIC GROUPS THAT HAVE DONE THESE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS HAVE REACHED A SIMILAR CONCLUSION THAT FLUORIDE AT A CONCENTRATION FOUND IN DRINKING WATER REGARDLESS OF THE FORM OF FLUORIDE AGENT USED DOES NOT POSE ANY HEALTH CONCERNS TO CONSUMERS. WE'VE HAD DISCUSSION IN TERMS OF THE LEVEL OF FLUORIDE, AND THAT BEING BENEFICIAL. HEALTH CANADA'S CURRENT RECOMMENDATION IS THE FLUORIDE LEVEL IN DRINKING WATER BE .7 MILLIGRAMS PER LITRE. THIS LEVEL WAS ARRIVED AT BY A RISK ASSESSMENT PROCESS THAT TAKES INTO ACCOUNT TOTAL FLUORIDE INTAKE AND IN CONSIDERING FLUORIDE FROM OTHER SOURCES SUCH AS THE FOOD AND DENTIFRICES THAT PEOPLE WOULD USE. IT DOES REFLECT A BALANCE IN TERMS OF THE PROTECTIVE EFFECT OF FLUORIDE ON ORAL HEALTH WHILE MINIMIZING THE RISK OF FLUOROSIS. ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE IN CALGARY AND IF THE CITY WERE TO MAKE A DECISION TO REMOVE FLUORIDE OR DISCONTINUE FLUORIDATION IS THE WIDE VARIATION THAT EXISTS BETWEEN THE GLENMORE WATER TREATMENT PLANT AND THE BEARSPAW WATER TREATMENT PLANT. THE NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE OUT OF THE GLENMORE PLANT RANGES FROM .2 TO OVER .3 DEPENDING ON THE TIME OF THE YEAR, THE BEARSPAW PLANT IT RANGES FROM .1 TO .2. IF THERE WAS A DECISION TO DISCONTINUE WATER FLUORIDATION, THERE WOULD ACTUALLY BE A MUCH WIDER VARIATION IN THE EXPOSURE OF RESIDENTS IN CALGARY TO FLUORIDE THROUGH THE WATER SUPPLY THAN CURRENTLY EXISTS WHERE IT IS CONTROLLED AT .7 PARTS PER MILLION. TO SUMMARIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF WATER FLUORIDATION IS REALLY ESSENTIAL FOR CHILDREN WITH POOR SOCIO-ECONOMIC BACKGROUND. THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION HAS IDENTIFIED THAT IT CAN BE A KEY FACTOR IN REDUCING THE INEQUITIES IN DENTAL HEALTH. JUST IN MY CONCLUDING REMARKS, IT'S INTERESTING APPEARING BEFORE YOU HERE TODAY IN THAT DENTAL CARRIES AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT CAUSED ME TO BECOME INTERESTED IN PUBLIC HEALTH AND UNDERTAKE SPECIALTY TRAINING IN COMMUNITY MEDICINE. AS A GENERAL PRACTITIONER, WORKING IN CHURCHILL AND IN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS INVOLVED IN WAS GIVING ANESTHETICS TO YOUNG INUIT CHILDREN AND THAT FOR TREATMENT OF MASSIVE DENTAL DISEASE. AND SO SITUATION OF GIVING THESE -- PULLING THESE CHILDREN OUT OF THEIR HOME COMMUNITIES TO FLY THEM DOWN INTO ANOTHER PROVINCE FOR THEIR TREATMENT, THE DISRUPTION FROM THAT AND THEN SEEING THEM WITH A MOUTHFUL OF STAINLESS STEEL AS TREATMENT OF THEIR UNDERLYING DENTAL DISEASE. I THINK FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH PERSPECTIVE, I WAS EXTREMELY PLEASED AND PROUD IN TERMS OF WHEN CALGARIANS MADE THE DECISION FOLLOWING A PLEBISCITE FOR WATER FLUORIDATION, AND I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL FOR, AGAIN, MAINTAINING THAT BENEFICIAL EFFECT FOR ORAL HEALTH AND RECOGNIZING THAT DENTAL DISEASE IS A SIGNIFICANT ILLNESS, THAT WE CONTINUE WATER FLUORIDATION. THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK THIS AFTERNOON. >> ALDERMAN KEATING. >> THANK YOU, CHAIR. ONE OF THE BEST DESCRIPTIONS I'VE HEARD TONIGHT OF ALL OF THE SCIENCE IS IT'S LIKELY THAT IT IS A BENEFIT. IT'S NOT LIKELY THAT IT'S A HARM. BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT, THE QUESTION WE STILL HAVE IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO GO AHEAD. AND SO COMING BACK TO THE NUMBER OF STUDIES THAT YOU'VE REFERENCED, DID ANY OF THEM TALK ABOUT IF THERE WAS A SEPARATE PROGRAM TO TARGET THOSE IN MOST NEED, WOULD WE SEE THE SAME RESULTS OF -- OR EVEN BETTER RESULTS IF WE REMOVED FLUORIDE? >> ONE OF THE MAJOR CHALLENGES THAT WE FACE WITH ANY PROGRAM, WHEN YOU MOVE FROM WHAT WOULD BE A UNIVERSAL PROGRAM WHICH IS WHAT WATER FLUORIDATION IS IN TERMS OF BEING UNIVERSALLY AVAILABLE TO ALL TO A TARGETED PROGRAM, IS THE DIFFICULTY OF ACTUALLY IDENTIFYING THOSE MOST AT RISK. AND SO THERE ARE STRATEGIES THAT YOU CAN DO FOR THAT. LIKE TO PUT THOSE PROGRAMS TOGETHER. I THINK, AGAIN, I'D WANT YOU TO REMEMBER THE COMMENT FROM ONE OF THE OTHER SPEAKERS THAT THE OTHER TARGETED INTERVENTION PROGRAMS FOR HIGH RISK, AND WE HAVE SOME OF THEM ALREADY IN PLACE IN CALGARY, ARE INTENDED OR BUILT ON WATER FLUORIDATION AS A BASE. IF YOU WERE TO LOOK AT A TARGETED PROGRAM, IT WILL BE MUCH MORE COSTLY AND IT WILL BE AN ONGOING CHALLENGE TO ENSURE THAT IT'S REACHING THE -- THOSE MOST AT RISK TO PROVIDE THEM WITH CARE. AND WE JUST KNOW THAT EVEN DATING BACK TO THE SUPPLEMENT PROGRAM THAT WAS DONE IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE CITY OF CALGARY PRIOR TO WATER FLUORIDATION IS THAT WE HAD INCONSISTENT USE OF THE DROPS AT OUR VARIOUS CLINICS ACROSS THE CITY AND OFTEN THE UTILIZATION OF THE FLUORIDE DROPS WAS HIGHEST IN THE HIGHER INCOME NEIGHBOURHOODS COMPARED TO THE LOWER INCOME NEIGHBOURHOODS. IT'S HARD FOR A SINGLE MOM THAT MAY BE WORKING TWO JOBS AND WORRYING ABOUT PUTTING FOOD ON THE TABLE AND WHERE THE PAYMENT'S GOING TO COME FOR NEXT MONTH'S RENT TO BE THINKING THAN ABOUT PUTTING THE FLUORIDE DROPS INTO THEIR CHILDREN'S JUICE. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS, AND I THINK THEY'RE CLEAR AS WELL. I GUESS I'LL REPHRASE MY QUESTION BECAUSE YOU'VE ANSWERED ALL THE NEGATIVE ASPECTS OF GOING DOWN THAT ROUTE, BUT NEVER REALLY ANSWERED THE QUESTION. HAS THERE EVER BEEN A STUDY THAT'S LOOKED AT THE POSSIBILITY OF REMOVING FLUORIDE AND SETTING UP A SEPARATE PROGRAM TO HELP THOSE IN MOST NEED? >> THE AUSTRALIAN SYSTEMATIC REVIEW LOOKED AT OTHER OPTIONS SUCH AS FLUORIDE IN SALT, FLUORIDE IN MILK PROGRAMS SO THEY DID LOOK AT OTHER APPROACHES. SO THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS, YES, DEPENDING ON THE PARTICULAR QUESTIONS, CHARGES THAT WERE MADE TO THOSE SYSTEMATIC REVIEW COMMITTEES, SOME OF THEM LOOKED AT ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS, AND THAT IS PART OF THEIR PROCESS. THOSE THAT DID FOUND THAT WATER FLUORIDATION WAS STILL THE SAFEST, MOST COST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF PROVIDING THE PROTECTIVE EFFECT OF FLUORIDE FOR DENTAL CARRIES. >> THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> IN ANY OF YOUR STUDIES HAVE YOU LOOKED AT WHAT ANY OF THE CUMULATIVE BUILDUP OF FLUORIDE WHETHER IT BE IN THE BODY, IN THE ENVIRONMENT, IN THE PLANTS, AND WHAT THE RESULTS OF THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN? >> YES. THE STUDIES HAVE LOOKED AT THAT. AND, AGAIN, THE FINDING OF THOSE STUDIES IS THAT THE LEVEL THAT IS USED IN WATER FLUORIDATION THAT THERE IS NOT A CONCERN WITH REGARDS TO ANY OTHER SYSTEMATIC -- OR, PARDON ME, SYSTEMIC HUMAN EFFECTS IN THAT THE ONLY EFFECT NOTED IS DENTAL FLUOROSIS. BUT THERE'S NO CONCERN WITH REGARDS TO SKELETAL FLUOROSIS OR OTHER ADVERSE HEALTH EFFECTS. SIMILARLY, THE STUDIES THAT HAVE LOOKED AT ADDING WATER, WATER FLUORIDATION AND THAT HAVE NOT IDENTIFIED ANY ADVERSE EFFECTS ON ACQUATIC LIFE AS A RESULT OF COMMUNITIES THAT FLUORIDATE THE WATER. >> THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD? >> THANK YOU. MY QUESTION WAS JUST TOUCHED ON, ACTUALLY, A MINUTE AGO, BUT WHAT -- SO, WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THE FLUORIDE STRENGTHENING THE TEETH, AND WE'VE HEARD THAT FLUORIDE MIGHT CAUSE BONE DENSITY LOSS OR BONE STRUCTURE. I'M WONDERING IF YOU CAN COMMENT ON THAT, BECAUSE I'M NOT CLEAR, TEETH AND BONES SEEM DIFFERENT TO ME, AND I'M NOT CLEAR ON WHAT THE EFFECT IS ON YOUR BONES. >> WHAT HAS BEEN FOUND, AND THIS HAS BEEN NOTED IN CERTAIN AREAS OF THE WORLD WHERE THERE ARE VERY HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF FLUORIDE OCCURRING IN THE WATER, THAT YOU CAN GET WHAT IS CALLED SKELETAL FLUOROSIS. WHICH IS A SIGNIFICANT HEALTH CONDITION. AND IS SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO AVOID AND NOT HAVE OCCUR. THE CONCENTRATIONS THAT -- WHAT YOU'D BE CONCERNED ABOUT FOR THOSE ARE CONCENTRATIONS OVER 10 PARTS PER MILLION IN THE WATERS WHERE IT'S SEEN. THE CENTRES FOR -- IN THE U.S. AND THROUGH THE CENTRES FOR DISEASE CONTROL, THEY HAVE A MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LIMIT OF FLUORIDE IN WATER -- NATURALLY OCCURRING WATER OF 4 PARTS PER MILLION. AND THAT'S INTENDED TO PROVIDE PROTECTION AGAINST THAT CONDITION ARISING, TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION OTHER ESSENTIAL SOURCES OF FLUORIDE. THE STUDIES -- THIS IS A HEALTH ISSUE THAT, AGAIN, THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS HAVE SPECIFICALLY LOOKED AT BECAUSE IT IS A CONCERN THAT IS RAISED WITH REGARDS TO WATER FLUORIDATION, AND, AGAIN, THOSE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS HAVE BEEN CONSISTENT IN FINDING THAT THERE IS NOT A CONCERN WITH SKELETAL FLUOROSIS AT THE CONCENTRATIONS RECOMMENDED FOR WATER FLUORIDATION. >> THANK YOU. I GUESS MY NEXT QUESTION -- I'M NOT SURE IF YOU CAN ANSWER THIS OR NOT, BUT I STILL HAVE SOME CONFUSION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT'S ADDED TO OUR WATER AND WHAT NATURALLY OCCURS IN OUR WATER. YOU'VE COMMENTED THAT THERE'S NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE. I'VE HEARD THAT FLUORIDE THAT'S ADDED HAS TO HAVE A -- BE BONDED? I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE WORD WAS. BUT IT COMES WITH SOMETHING ELSE IN ORDER TO GET INTO THE WATER. >> WELL, THAT'S -- YOU KNOW, FLUORIDE IS AN ION AND BY NATURE OF AN ION IT MEANS IT'S BOUNDED WITH ANOTHER COMPOUND AND THERE CAN BE DIFFERENT COMPOUNDS THAT IT'S BOUNDED WITH. SO IT DEPENDS WHAT THE SOURCE OF THE FLUORIDE IS AS TO THE TYPE OF COMPOUNDS THAT HAVE BEEN BOUNDED WITH. BUT THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE AS FAR AS THE CLINICAL EFFECT OF THE FLUORIDE ION, DEPENDING ON THE SOURCE OF THE -- PARTICULAR SOURCE THAT'S USED. AND, AGAIN, THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS, THIS IS OFTEN A QUESTION -- OR HAS BEEN A QUESTION/CONCERN RAISED IN THE PAST THAT IT'S NOT NATURALLY OCCURRING FLUORIDE. AND SO THAT -- IT'S -- IT HAS BEEN A FOCUS OF THE REVIEWS. AND, AGAIN, THE REVIEWS HAVE NOT IDENTIFIED THAT AS A CONCERN FOR WATER FLUORIDATION AS TO THE NATURE OF THE SOURCE. OF FLUORIDE THAT IS USED FOR FLUORIDATION. >> SO WE'VE HEARD THAT THEY GOT THE FLUORIDE BY SCRUBBING OUT SOME CHIMNEYS OR SOMETHING. IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHERE THE FLUORIDE COMES FROM, IT'S STILL FLUORIDE. >> WELL, WHAT'S CRITICAL IS THE ISSUE IS FLUORIDE LcBx IS PRESEN ROCK AND MINERAL. SO THE WAY THAT IT GETS INTO OUR WATER, THE WATER GOING INTO THE BOW AND THE ELBOW IS THROUGH THE GROUND WATER THAT ENTERS INTO THOSE RIVERS. AND THE REASON WHY IT'S HIGHER IN THE ELBOW THAN THE BOW RIVER IS THAT GROUND WATER HAS A MUCH GREATER IMPACT IN TERMS OF -- OR IS A GREATER CONTRIBUTOR TO THE FLOWS IN THE ELBOW COMPARED TO THE BOW RIVER. SO, AGAIN, WITH THE PRODUCTION OF FLUORIDE IF IT COMES THROUGH VARIOUS MINING OPERATIONS AND THAT WHERE THE ROCK IS BEING PROCESSED IS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE FLUORIDE GENERATED. WHAT'S REALLY CRITICAL IS WHAT Mr. STEFANI PRESENTED TO YOU EARLIER IS THAT THE SOURCE THAT THE CITY OF CALGARY IS USING FOR FLUORIDE HAS THE APPROPRIATE QUALITY CONTROL MEASURES IN PLACE AND MEETS THE STANDARD GUIDELINES FOR FLUORIDE THAT IS USED IN DRINKING WATER SYSTEMS. WHICH IS IN FACT THE CASE FOR THE CITY OF CALGARY, THE SOURCING OF FLUORIDE FOR THE CITY OF CALGARY. >> JUST TO MAKE SURE I'M UNDERSTANDING THAT CORRECTLY, IT DOESN'T MUCH MATTER WHERE THE FLUORIDE COMES FROM, IT'S STILL FLUORIDE. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS CLEAN FLUORIDE OR DIRTY FLUORIDE, IT'S JUST FLUORIDE. >> YES. WHAT'S CRITICAL IN TERMS OF THE SOURCE OF THAT FLUORIDE IS THAT THERE IS THE APPROPRIATE QUALITY CONTROL MEASURES IN THERE, SEE PHYSICIAN THERE IS CONTAMINANTS PRESENT. IF THERE ARE TRACE CONTAMINANTS PRESENT, THAT THEY ARE AT A LEVEL THAT ARE ACCEPTABLE AND THAT, AND WOULDN'T EXCEED IN TERMS -- EXCEED THE CANADIAN DRINKING WATER GUIDELINES. >> I HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION FOR YOU. DO YOU DRINK TAP WATER OR BOTTLED WATER. >> TAP WATER EXCLUSIVELY. AND THAT'S WHAT MY FAMILY DRINKS AS WELL. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN STEVENSON. >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, Mr. FRIESEN. AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, WE'VE ACCUMULATED DATA AND RESEARCH FROM ALL OVE ALL OVER THE WORLD. OILSANDS JUST WANTED >> I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON CHILE. IN 1985 THEY PUT IN FLUORIDATION AT THAT POINT. IT DECREASED FROM 6 DOWN TO 5.3 IN SIX YEARS. BUT THEN BY THE TIME TEN YEARS WENT BY, 1995, IT WAS UP TO OVER 6.7. SO THEY DISCONTINUED FLUORIDE AGAIN. HAVE YOU -- ARE THOSE FIGURES RIGHT OR HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THAT AT ALL? >> I'M SORRY, I'M NOT SPECIFICALLY FAMILIAR WITH THE DATA FOR CHILE, SO I CAN'T COMMENT ON THAT. WHAT I CAN REFERENCE BACK IS TO THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND YOU MAY RECALL ONE OF THE PRESENTERS AGAIN PRESENTED STUDIES LOOKING AT THE PROTECTIVE EFFECT THAT YOU SEE FROM WATER FLUORIDATION. AND WHAT HAS BEEN SEEN OVER TIME IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A DECREASE IN THE OVERALL EFFECTIVENESS OF WATER FLUORIDATION AS FAR AS THE EXPECTED IMPACT FROM IT. BUT THAT NEEDS TO BE INTERPRETED WITH CAUTION BECAUSE FOR CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE POPULATION, WE MAY NOT BE GETTING AS MUCH OF A BENEFIT FROM WATER FLUORIDATION BECAUSE OF OTHER FACTORS SUCH AS THE PRESENCE OF FLUORIDE IN TOOTHPASTE AND THAT, OTHER SOURCES THAT WE'VE GOT FOR BEING EXPOSED TO FLUORIDE SUCH AS DRINKING BEVERAGES THAT MAY BE FLUORIDATED. BUT THERE IS SIMILAR EVIDENCE SHOWING FOR THE DISADVANTAGED POPULATIONS THAT THERE IS STILL A SIGNIFICANT POSITIVE BENEFIT FOR THEM FROM WATER FLUORIDATION. SO IN TERMS OF WHAT'S OCCURRING IN CHILE, THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT WERE IMPACTING TO SEE THAT RESULT AS FAR AS THE DENTAL CARRIES. AGAIN, AS ONE OF THE OTHER PRESENTERS INDICATED, THERE'S OTHER FACTORS THAT INCREASE THE RISK OF CARRIES OR DECREASES THE RISK OF CARRIES SUCH AS THE NATURE OF THE DIET THAT WE'RE CONSUMING. >> WELL, IN IRELAND IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE -- THE LAST DATA I SAW IT WAS THE MOST HEAVILY FLUORIDATED OR 66% I THINK WAS THE NUMBER THAT WERE FLUORIDATED THERE. BUT IN NORTHERN EUROPE AND THE NORDIC COUNTRIES, THERE'S -- I THINK THERE'S FIVE OR SIX COUNTRIES THAT HAVE LITTLE OR NO FLUORIDATION, AND YET THEY'RE LESS TOOTH DECAY THAN WHAT IRELAND HAS. THESE ARE THE CONFUSING THINGS FOR US BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S PRESENTING US WITH DATA, BUT THE BIGGEST CONCERN THAT I HAVE IS THE DOSAGE. AND HOW WE -- BECAUSE NO ONE'S QUESTIONING THE FACT THAT THERE CAN BE OVERDOSAGE OF FLUORIDE. EVERYBODY'S ADMITTING THAT CAN HAPPEN. BUT HOW DO WE AS A COUNCIL FOR THIS CITY OF A MILLION PEOPLE, HOW DO WE JUSTIFY HAVING THIS IN THE WATER WHEN THERE IS NO CONTROL ON DOSAGE? AND THERE'S A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT DO NOT WANT IT AND CAN'T TAKE IT. >> THERE WAS CONVERSATIONS EARLIER ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU'D ASK OF COMMITTEE OR PANEL THAT -- IF YOU WERE TO DECIDE TO CREATE ONE. THAT MIGHT IN FACT BE ONE OF THE QUESTIONS YOU PUT TO THEM. BECAUSE I HEARD FROM SOME OF THE COMMENTS OF OTHER ALDERMEN/COUNCILLORS, I'M NOT SURE WHERE WE ARE -- >> WE'RE STILL ALDERMEN UNTIL THE NEXT ELECTION. >> FROM SOME OF THE OTHER ALDERMEN THAT TALKING ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WATER DIFFERENT PEOPLE WOULD DRINK OR CONSUME DURING THE DAY. IF YOU MAKE THE DECISION TO DISCONTINUE WATER FLUORIDATION WITH THE VARIATION IN NATURAL OCCURRING FLUORIDE AND THAT, IT MEANS THAT POTENTIALLY SOMEBODY IN NORTHEAST CALGARY COULD BE GETTING WATER IN TERMS OF AT .1 PART PER MILLION. SOMEBODY DOWN IN SOUTHWEST CALGARY WOULD BE GETTING .3 PARTS PER MILLION. AND SO -- AND THEN IF THEY'RE WORKING IN DOWNTOWN CALGARY, THEY'RE GETTING A BLEND BETWEEN THOSE TWO. >> Dr. FRIESEN, I UNDERSTAND THAT. I'VE HEARD YOU SAY THAT BEFORE. BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW, WITH THIS METHOD OF ADDING THE FLUORIDE IN THERE, HOW WE INCORPORATE ALL THE OTHER SOURCES OF FLUORIDE. BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF THEM. AND SOME PEOPLE ARE BRUSHING THEIR TEETH THREE TIMES A DAY WITH FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE. SOME ARE DOING IT WITHOUT FLUORIDATED TOOTHPASTE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN EVER COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT DOSAGE PEOPLE WOULD BE GETTING. [Please Stand By] THE CAPTIONS OF THIS MEETING -- THAT HAVE OCCURRED. THOSE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE BEING DONE AS RECENTLY AS -- BEING CARRIED OUT IN TERMS OF 2010, ARE SUPPORTING THE POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION THAT THE CITY OF CALGARY IS AT. SO I THINK YOU CAN TAKE COMFORT -- >> FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON WITH THE AVERAGE CONSUMPTION OF WATER? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. Mr. CHAIRMAN. >> ALDERMAN PINCOTT. >> THANK YOU. SO MY QUESTION, I STATED THIS BEFORE, IS AROUND HIGH CONTROL AND I ACTUALLY WOULD TAKE YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT REMOVING IT AS SUPPORTING -- ALSO SUPPORTING NOT HAVING IT IN BECAUSE YOUR ARGUMENT AROUND REMOVING IT WAS PEOPLE WOULD BE GETTING DIFFERENT DOSAGES AND YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT AND YET WITH IT IN, WE CAN'T CONTROL HOW MUCH PEOPLE -- HOW MUCH WATER PEOPLE DRINK. SO ASSUMING -- AND YOU TALKED ABOUT OSTEOFLOROWES SIS AND I THINK YOU SAID TEN PARTS PER MILL. IS THAT THE SAME AS 10 MILLIGRAMS? OKAY. AS SORT OF 10 PARTS PER MILLION BEING KIND OF THAT THRESHOLD AROUND OSTEOFLUOROSIS? >> I'D ASKED YOU -- SKELETAL. IF THE AVERAGE PERSON IS DRINKING TWO GLASSES OF WATER A DAY OR I DON'T KNOW WHAT -- WHAT'S THE DOSAGE, THE IDEAL DOSAGE? AS POINT 7 MILLIGRAMS PER LITRE, WHAT'S THE IDEAL DOSAGE IN -- THAT'S 2 LITRES. >> SO THE >> COULD YOU REPEAT YOUR QUESTION. >> GHEN, YOU'RE SAYING THE POINT 7 IS BASED ON THE AVERAGE PERSON DRINKING THE AVERAGE AMOUNT OF WATER. HOW MANY GLASSES OF WATER IS THAT, ARE WE -- IS THE SWEET SPOT FOR THAT DOSAGE? >> WITHIN THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DO, ALL OF THEM DO, IS LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE THAT IS CONSUMED BY DIFFERENT POPULATION AGE GROUPS. SO THEY LOOK IN TERMS OF THE DIFFERENT SOURCES SO WHAT IS A NORMAL RANGE THAT AN INDIVIDUAL WOULD BE DRINKING. NORMALLY SEEN IN TERMS OF CHILD, AS FAR AS THE AMOUNT OF FLUIDS THEY WOULD BE DRINKING. WHAT ARE THE TYPE OF FLUIDS THAT THEY WOULD BE EATING. AND COMING OUT WITH A TOTAL DOSE, EXPECTED DOSE, OF FLUORIDE THEY WOULD BE EXPOSED TO. WITHIN THOSE SYSTEM -- SO THAT'S HOW THOSE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS HAVE LOOKED AT, TAKEN THE LITERATURE, LOOKED AT THE DOSAGES THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING EXPOSED TO, LOOKING AT THE VARIOUS EFFECTIVENESS, LOOKING AT THE RISK, AND THAT'S WHERE THEY'VE LANDED IN TERMS OF ON THE POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION AS A LEVEL FOR WATER FLUORIDATION WHICH WILL PROVIDE A PROTECTIVE EFFECT AGAINST DENTAL CARIES, WITH MINIMAL RISK OF DENTAL FLUORDOSIS. >> YOU'RE SAYING THEN THAT THERE'S NO RISK SO FOR THE PERSON WHO'S DRINKING TWO GLASSES OF WATER OR 20 GLASSES OF WATER, THERE'S NO RISK? >> OF SKELETAL NOR OWES SIS? YEAH. -- I JUST CANNOT CONCEIVE OF ANY WAY IN WHICH SOMEBODY DRINKING FLORIDATED -- CITY OF CALGARY FLORIDATED WATER COULD DEVELOP SKELETAL FLOROWES SIS -- FLUOROSIS BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO CONSUME THE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT WOULD GIVE RISE TO THOSE PROBLEMS. >> IT'S NOT MUCH OF A LEAP FOR ME TO GO TEN PARTS PER MILL. IS THAT THE SAME AS 10 MILLIGRAMS? OKAY. AS SORT OF 10 PARTS PER MILLION BEING KIND OF THAT THRESHOLD AROUND OSTEOFLUOROSIS? >> I'D ASKED YOU -- SKELETAL. IF THE AVERAGE PERSON IS DRINKING TWO GLASSES OF WATER A DAY OR I DON'T KNOW WHAT -- WHAT'S THE DOSAGE, THE IDEAL DOSAGE? AS POINT 7 MILLIGRAMS PER LITRE, DOSAGE >> THE YOU REPEAT YOUR >> GHEN, YOU'RE SAYING THE POINT 7 IS BASED ON THE OFRSON DRINKING THE OF IS THAT, ARE WE -- IS THE SWEET SPOT FOR THAT DOSAGE? >> WITHIN THE SYSTEMATIC BEEN DONE IS BEEN DONE IS THEM TO CONSUME THE AMOUNT OF WATER THAT WOULD GIVE RISE TO THOSE PROBLEMS. >> IT'S NOT MUCH OF A LEAP FOR ME TO GO FROM 7 PARTS PER MILLION TO 10 PARTS PER MILLION -- >> 0.7. >> ASKED YOU IF IT WAS THE SAME MEASUREMENT AND YOU SAID IT WAS THE SAME. WE'RE OVER 10 PARTS PER MILLION AND THAT AND AGAIN THE COMMUNITIES IN INDIA WHERE THIS HAS BEEN NOTED AND REPORTED, WHAT WOULD BE FOUND THERE AS FAR AS THE CONCENTRATION IN THE WATER IS 40 PARTS PER MILLION. SO IT'S SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER SO THERE'S -- I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S FEASIBLE FOR SOMEBODY TO DRINK THAT AMOUNT OF WATER. >> SORRY, I WAS GETTING THE SWITCHING BETWEEN MILLIGRAMS AND PARTS PER MILLION. ONE LAST QUESTION. IS THIS ANY OTHER MEDICATION THAT YOU WOULD PRESCRIBE WHERE YOU WOULD SAY TO THE PATIENT TAKE AS MUCH AS YOU WANT? >> I'M NOT SAYING THAT FOR FLUORIDE AND THAT. WHAT I'M SAYING IN TERMS OF FOR FLUORIDE IS THAT POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION IN DRINKING WATER IS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE. WHAT I WOULD ALSO BE SAYING AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING TO PARENTAL IS YOU NEED TO BE MONITORING THE AMOUNT OF DENTISMTS FRICE THAT IS BEING USED AND THAT TO MINIMIZE, FURTHER MINIMIZE, THE RISK OF DENTAL FLUOROSIS. AGAIN, AROUND THE SAFETY OF POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION IN THE WATER, I HAVE INTO CONCERNS WITH REGARDS TO THE SAFETY AT THAT LEVEL. >> THANK YOU. >> I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR YOU. A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, MY FATHER WAS TOLD THAT HE COULDN'T DRINK THE WATER BECAUSE OF THE FLUORIDE. HE HAD KIDNEY PROBLEMS AND HE HAD DIABETES AS WELL. WHAT DO YOU TELL THOSE PEOPLE? >> I THINK Dr. MUSTO TOUCHED ON THIS PREVIOUSLY. I'M NOT AWARE OF RECOMMENDATION FOR PEOPLE WITH RENAL DISEASE TO NOT DRINK FLORIDATED WATER. NOW, THERE'S SERGE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT GO TO PEOPLE WITH RENAL DISEASE AROUND THEIR DIETARY RESTRICTIONS AND THAT RELATED TO THE OVERALL KIDNEY FUNCTION, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF THAT BEING IDENTIFIED AS A CONCERN, AND CERTAINLY FOR DIALYSIS MACHINES, DIALYSIS EQUIPMENT, THERE'S SPECIALIZED WATER SYSTEMS THAT ARE PUT IN PLACE FOR THOSE, AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF CONCERNS FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT -- TO WANT TO ENSURE A VERY SAFE SOURCE OF WATER THAT IS BEING USED FOR DIALYSIS. >> SO HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE CITY OF CALGARY WOULD YOU SAY WOULD FALL UNDER THAT CATEGORY? DO YOU HAVE ANY BALLPARK IDEAS? >> NO, I CAN'T GIVE YOU THAT INFORMATION. I CAN FOLLOW UP ON THAT AS FAR AS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON DIALYSIS AND THAT, BUT COMING BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION ABOUT PEOPLE WITH KIDNEY DISEASE, YOU KNOW, BEING ADVISED NOT TO DRINK OR BEING A REGISTERS NOT TO DRINK FLORIDATED WATER, THAT'S NOT BEEN AN ISSUE, AND I THINK Dr. MUSTO FOLLOWED UP WITH THE DIRECTOR OF INTERNAL MEDICINE OR DEPARTMENT OF INTERNAL MEDICINE AND THAT WAS NOT IDENTIFIED AS AN ISSUE. AND Dr. MUSTO IS INDICATING AFFIRMATIVE THAT AGAIN THEY DID NOT IDENTIFY IT AS A HEALTH CONCERN WITHIN THE INTERNAL MEDICINE NEPHROLOGISTS THAT LOOK AFTER PEOPLE WITH KIDNEY DISEASE. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU. SEEING NO MORE QUESTIONS, MY NEXT SPEAKER IS ELKIE -- OH, SORRY. >> I DO HAVE A QUESTION. Mr. FRIESEN, WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT -- Dr. FRIESEN -- WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT DURING THE BREAK. WHY DO YOU THINK THIS CONTINUES TO BE SUCH A CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE? AND ARE YOU PRIVY TO THE DISCUSSIONS THAT OCCURRED IN EUROPE WHEN THEY MADE SOME ALTERNATE DECISIONS TO NORTH AMERICA? >> I'M NOT PRIVY TO THOSE DISCUSSIONS THAT OCCURRED IN EUROPE. SO I CAN'T COMMENT ON THOSE. AS TO WHY DOES THIS CONTINUE TO BE A CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE IN CALGARY AND SOME OTHER COMMUNITIES, IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME. I THINK Dr. MUSTO TOUCHED ON SOME OF THE ISSUES. I DO FIND IT INTERESTING THAT WATER FLUORIDATION HAS EXISTED IN EDMONTON SINCE THE EARLY SIXTIES, AND THERE HAS NOT BEEN THE SAME DEGREE OF DISCUSSION OCCURRING IN THAT COMMUNITY AS OCCURRED IN CALGARY. I THINK, AGAIN, HAVING THIS DISCUSSION TAKE PLACE DOES PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW AND PRESENT THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF WATER FLUORIDATION, REASSURE PEOPLE AROUND THE SAFETY AND EFFECTIVENESS OF IT, BUT I CAN'T GIVE ANY INSIGHT IN TERMS OF AS TO WHY IT'S PERSISTED OR RECURRED AS AN ISSUE HERE. >> AND IT'S THE SAME WITH WATERLOO WITH THEIR DECISION, VERY SMALL MAJORITY, I THINK IT WAS POINT 3 OF A PERCENT, TO REMOVE IT AFTER MANY, MANY YEARS OF HAVING IT IN. SO EVEN IN PLACES THAT HAVE HAD IT FOR DECADES, IT REMAINS CONTROVERSIAL, AND THE POPULATION IS SPLIT. IT'S A FASCINATING DISCUSSION, AND IT MAY BE THAT THE METHOD OF DELIVERY. >> WELL, I THINK ANOTHER FACTOR IS AROUNDLISTIC COMMUNICATION AND NO, AND IT'S RELATIVELY EASY FOR ALLEGATIONS TO BE MADE IN TERMS OF A PARTICULAR ADVERSE EFFECTS OR IMPACTS RELATED TO WATER FLUORIDATION. AND IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO REFUTE THOSE ALLEGATIONS IN TERMS OF -- SOMEBODY CAN SAY SOMETHING NEGATIVE, AND IT'S OUT THERE VERY QUICKLY. BUT THEN TO GO IN AND PROVIDE THE SCIENTIFIC DETAIL AND REASON WHY THAT IS NOT AN ACCURATE STATEMENT OR THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THAT PARTICULAR STUDY OR RESEARCH WAS CARRIED OUT TAKES A MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME. AND THAT PEOPLE, IN THE 30-SECOND BIT, REALLY DOESN'T LEND TO THAT TYPE OF INFORMED DISCUSSION FOR PEOPLE. SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE OTHER FACTORS THAT EXISTS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WATER FLUORIDATION. >> THANK YOU, Dr. FRIESEN. >> THANK YOU. >> OUR NEXT PREVENTER IS ELKIE BEVIAK. >> HI, THERE, IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY. (INAUDIBLE) >> THANK YOU. I WAS INVOLVED IN THE FLUORIDATION ISSUE A LONG TIME AGO. I HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF DENTISTRY (INDISCERNIBLE) NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE. I HAVE RUN THROUGH THE FIRES OF HELL WHEN I GOT MERCURY POISONING AND EXPERTS TOLD ME THAT THERE'S NOTHING WRONG -- THIS WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH MERCURY IN MY MOUTH. I WAS INVITED BY HEALTH CANADA TO PARTICIPATE IN STAKEHOLDER MEETINGS FOR MERCURY AMALGAM. WE DIDN'T GET THEM BANNED BUT WE DID GET MAJOR CONCESSIONS. SO I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH DENTISTRY FOR WELL OVER 25 YEARS. I WORK WITH DENTIST WHO IS ARE OPPOSED TO FLUORIDATION AND WHO DO NOT USE FLUORIDE IN THEIR PRACTICES. THEY ARE HARASSED, THEY CANNOT COME DPOORD BECAUSE THEY ARE IN TROUBLE WHEN THEY DO BY THEIR DENTAL ASSOCIATION. THAT'S WHY YOU DIDN'T GET A DISSENTER. THE DISSENTERS ARE NOT AT THOSE MEETINGS. I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE PULLED BACK A LITTLE BIT, AND THE REASON I DID IS BECAUSE I WENT OUT AND GOT A JOB. I AM NOW WORKING FOR CIR REALTY. IT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE AS A REALTOR NOW FOR CIR, AND I'M A BUYER SPECIALIST, SO AS A BUYER SPECIALIST I TAKE A LOT OF FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS OUT, AND I HAVE SHOWN HUNDREDS OF HOMES IN THE CITY. ALL OVER THE CITY. IN AFFLUENT AREAS AND LESS AFFLUENT AREAS. AND WHAT I FOUND IN THE AFFLUENT AREAS IS THAT MOST PEOPLE DRINK EITHER FILTERED WATER OR BOTTLED WATER, AND EVEN IN THE LESS AFFLUENT AREAS, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DRINKING BOTTLED WATER. AND BOTTLED WATER HAS BECOME VERY POPULAR LATELY SIMPLY BECAUSE IT TASTES BETTER THAN TAP WATER AND IT'S SIEGE AS BEING HEALTHIER THAN TAP WATER. TO GIVE APERSPECTIVE ON DOSE, THIS IS MY FORCE, SO THIS IS ABOUT TWO AND A HALF LITRES OF WATER. I'VE HAD FOUR CUPS OF COFFEE. BEFOREGY TO BED TONIGHT I WILL HAVE ANOTHER 2 LITRES OF WATER. SO DOSE IS VERY IMPORTANT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WEIGHT, SO MYSELF, I WOULD GET MUCH MORE FLUORIDE IF I WAS DRINKING FLORIDATED WATER THAN MY FRIEND OVER THERE WHO IS 50 POUNDS HEAVIER THAN I AM, AND THAT IS WHAT DOSE IS ALL ABOUT. AND THAT IS WHY KIDS GET VERY MUCH FLUORIDE FOR HOW MUCH THEY WEIGH, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE VERY SLIGHT IN WEIGHT S AND IT'S VERY SIMPLE. EVERY TIME SOMEBODY HAS ASKED ABOUT DOSE HERE AND WHAT IS A SAFE DOSE, SOMEBODY TALKS ABOUT CONCENTRATION OR LEVEL. DOSE IS VERY SIMPLE. SOMEBODY LIKE MYSELF IS GOING TO GET MUCH MORE BECAUSE I DON'T WEIGH AS MUCH THAN A FULLY GROWN MAN DOES. SO EVERY PERSON, DEPENDING ON WATER INTAKE, IS GOING TO GET A DIFFERENT AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE. AND BECAUSE I DRINK A LOT OF WATER AND I DON'T DRINK NOR DATED WATER, I'M OKAY. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE RUNNERS, WHAT ABOUT THOSE? WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TWO GLASSES OF WATER A DAY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FOUR TO SIX LITRES, AT LEAST, WHEN YOU'RE TRAINING. MY TRAINER RECOMMENDS AT LEAST 3 TO 4 LITRES OF WATER A DAY. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WANTED TO MENTION AS I AM -- HAVE NOTICED HOW MANY PEOPLE DRINK BOTTLED WATER IS BASICALLY I WANT TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS, AND THOSE QUESTIONS ARE WHO HAS MEASURED THE DECLINE IN DENTAL CARIES IN CALGARY SINCE CALGARY STARTED FLORIDATING? CAN WE TRULY CLAIM THERE IS A BENEFIT TO FLORIDATING OUR CITIZENS IF NO ONE HAS BOTHERED TO DO A FOLLOW-UP STUDY? IN THE 1980s, THEY FOUND NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN UNFLORIDATED CALGARY AND FLORIDATED EDMONTON, AND YET WE STILL FLORIDATED OUR WATER SUPPLY. WHO IS LOOKED FOR POSSIBLE EVIDENCE OF HARM IN CALGARY? HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY SAY THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF HARM WHATSOEVER IF NOBODY HERE HAS LOOKED FOR IT? AND I DON'T LOOK AT REVIEWS BY FLUORIDATION PROPONENTS. CALGARY ALREADY WENT THERE IN 1998. AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE PANELISTS WAS IN FAVOUR OF NOR ADDITION EXCEPT FOR ONE. SO HOW CAN YOU GET AN UNBIASED REVIEW WHEN YOU'VE GOT A PANEL FULL OF FLUORIDATION PROPONENTS? THE OTHER THINGS, AS FAR AS FLUORIDATION COSTS THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN DISCUSSED IS BECAUSE THIS IS A BI-PRODUCTS OF FROS FATE FERTILIZER MANUFACTURING. CALGARY'S COST TO FLORIDATE IS ALWAYS GOING TO GO UP. THE USE OF PHOSPHATE IS DECLINING WORLDWIDE, AND THEY THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT DECLINE IN THE NEXT 20 YEARS. YOUR COST, BECAUSE THERE WILL BE LESS PHOSPHATE BYPRODUCT AND LESS FLUORIDE BYPRODUCT PRODUCED, WILL KEEP GOING UP. >> Ms. BABIAK, YOUR FIVE MINUTES IS UP. CAN YOU GIVE ME A CONCLUDING COMMENT. >> MY MOST IMPORTANT THING WHEN I FIRST GOT STARTED IN THE FLUORIDATION ISSUE WAS FREEDOM OF CHOICE. YOU CANNOT CONTROL THE DOSE HERE AND IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNETHICAL TO FORCE SOME PEOPLE TO DRINK FLUORIDE AND OTHER PEOPLE NOT. >> ALDERMAN DEMONG, QUESTIONS? >> I'M JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE TO START. YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS BEFORE. YOU'VE -- WERE HERE THROUGH '98, THROUGH THE LAST DISCUSSION. PARDON? >> (INAUDIBLE). >> IT'S BEEN SUGGESTED THAT WE SEND THIS TO A PANEL OF PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL EXPERTS TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT WE CAN LOOK FOR. CAN YOU GIVE US YOUR OPINION ON WHAT YOUR OPINION OF THAT IDEA MIGHT BE. >> HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DETERMINE THAT THOSE MEDICAL EXPERTS ARE UNBIASED? YOU'VE HEARD A NUMBER OF PROPONENTS HERE FOR FLUORIDATION. WHO YOU DON'T HEAR FROM IS THE DENTISTS THAT ARE OPPOSED TO FROR ADDITION -- TO FLUORIDATION BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID AND ALSO A LOT OF DOCTORS WILL NOT SPEAK OUT. THERE IS NO WAY TO GUARANTEE WHETHER THAT PANEL IS GOING TO BE UNBIASED OR NOT. THE CITY OF CALGARY TRIED TO HAVE A PANEL IN 1998. IT TURNED OUT TO BE VERY HEAVILY BIASED IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDATION, YET DESPITE THAT, WE LED NORTH AMERICA AS A CITY IN SAYING WE WERE GETTING TOO MUCH FLUORIDE. WE WERE 12 YEARS AHEAD OF THE AMERICANS WHEN WE REDUCED TO POINT 7 AND NOW THE AMERICANS ARE SAYING POINT 7. WE WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG. LET'S BE AHEAD OF THEM AGAIN. LET'S TAKE IT OUT OF OUR WATER FLY WE ARE GETTING WAY TOO MUCH. >> I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO START... YOU WERE COMMENTING ABOUT THE COST OF THE FLUORIDE TO THE CITY OF CALGARY AND THAT THAT'S GOING TO BE GOING UP. WHERE EXACTLY WERE YOU GOING WITH THAT, WHAT WERE YOUR COMMENTS? >> THE USE OF PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER HAS GONE DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY IN THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS, AND THE DECLINE PREDICTED IN THE NEXT 20 IS THAT IT WON'T BE USED THAT MUCH ANYMORE. AS FAR AS STRIP MINES GO, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S LESS AND LESS STRIPE MINES THAT ARE GETTING PERMITS TO MINE PHOSPHATE ROCK BECAUSE IT IS ENVIRONMENTALLY DISASTROUS. SO YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A SHORTAGE OF CHEMICALS AS A RESULT. YOU'RE NOT USING PHOSPHATE IN DETERGENTS ANYMORE SO THE USE OF PHOSPHATES ARE GOING WAY DOWN. WHEN THE USE OF PHOSPHATES GO DOWN, YOUR INDUSTRIAL WASTE BYPRODUCT WILL ALSO GO DOWN. THE REASON WE HAD A SHORTAGE THE LAST TIME, AND CALGARY EXPERIENCED THAT, IS BECAUSE THE MINES WERE OUT OF PRODUCTION WHEN KATRINA HIT. AND SO WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE, THOSE MONIES ARE GOING TO BE -- THOSE MINES ARE GOING TO BE LESS AND LESS. WHERE IS THE COST OF THE CHEMICAL GOING? >> OKAY. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, CHAIR. AGAIN, THIS IS ANOTHER QUESTION I SHOULD HAVE ASKED A LONG TIME AGO TO REALLY UNDERSTAND IT 'CAUSE WE'RE TALKING DOSE AND I THINK ALL OF THE OTHER STUFF SET ASIDE COMING DOWN TO MAKING A DECISION ON -- 'CAUSE I THINK WE'RE ALL IN AGREEMENT FLUORIDE IS GREAT FOR TEETH. WHERE THE DISAGREEMENT COMES IS HOW MUCH AND HOW AND WE GO FROM THERE. AM I CORRECT THAT POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION IS THE SAME AS 7 MILLIGRAMS? >> NO. >> NO? OKAY. >> POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION MEANS YOU'RE GETTING POINT 7 OF A MILLIGRAM IN 1 LITRE OF WATER. >> POINT 7 OF 1 MILLIGRAM. >> YES, EXACTLY. POINT 7 PARTS PER MILLION IS POINT 7 MILLIGRAMS IN 1 LITRE OF WATER. AND SO HOW MUCH YOU'RE GOING TO BE GETTING IS HOW MUCH YOU'RE DRINKING. SO I'M GOING TO BE DRINKING 4 LITRES OF WATER PER DAY. SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO BE DRINKING NONE AT ALL OR 1 LITRE OF WATER A DAY SO EACH ONE OF US GETS A DIFFERENT DOSE OF FLUORIDE IF WE DRINK FLORIDATED TAP WATER. THAT'S NOT AN EFFECTIVE DELIVERY METHOD. >> IF WE LOOKED ON AVERAGE -- THEY KEEP SAYING YOU SHOULD DRINK EIGHT GLASSES OF WATER A DAY, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY I THINK MANY PEOPLE DO NOT DO, AND THEY SHOULD. IF I BREAK THAT DOWN, THAT WOULD BE ROUGHLY 2 LITRES OF WATER. >> APPROXIMATELY, YES. >> SO I WOULD BE GETTING 1.4 MILLIGRAMS OF FLUORIDE OUT OF THAT. >> YEAH. >> NOT COUNTING ANY OF THE OTHER WAYS I WOULD BE GETTING FLUORIDE ON A DAILY BASIS. SO I WOULD GO WITH THE 1.4 WHICH IS PROBABLY FAIRLY COMMON AND MAY BE EVEN LESS THAN THAT BECAUSE WE DON'T DRINK WATER BUT THEN ON TOP OF THAT I WOULD ADD ALL OF MY TOOTHPASTE AND ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS AND EVERY NOW AND THEN THE DENTIST DOES PUT THOSE THINGS IN MY MOUTH BUT NOT AS MUCH LATELY AS BEFORE. MAYBE THAT'S 'CAUSE I'M GETTING OLDER, HE'S SAYING TO HECK WITH YOU, I'M NOT SURE, BUT ANYWAY, WE'LL GO FROM THERE. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS WHAT IS THE RECOGNIZED HARMFUL AMOUNT IN MILLIGRAMS? >> THAT WILL VARY FROM PERSON TO PERSON DEPENDING ON WHETHER YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO FLUORIDE OR NOT. >> AGAIN WE'RE LOOKING FOR YOU FOR KIND OF AN AVERAGE. IF I'M CORRECT, I THINK I'VE HEARD SOMEWHERE AROUND 4 MILLIGRAMS, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S RIGHT BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF INFORMATION AND I TRIED TO TAKE AS MANY NOTES AS -- >> THE HARMFUL EFFECTS FOR CHILDREN ARE OBVIOUS, RIGHT, AND SOME CHILDREN ARE GOING TO BE DRINKING MORE WATER. SOME CHILDREN NOT. DENTAL FLUOROSIS IS A GIVEN IN FLORIDATED COMMUNITIES. IT'S LIKE 41%. THAT TELLS US THEY'RE GETTING WAY TOO MUCH FLUORIDE. AS FAR AS THE ABSOLUTE MILLIGRAM DOSE THAT IS HARMFUL, IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO FLUORIDE, A HALF A MILLIGRAM IS ENOUGH. A HALF A MILLIGRAM IS ENOUGH. IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO FLUORIDE. THAT'S NOT VERY MUCH. THAT'S NOT VERY MUCH. >> IF ANYONE ELSE HAS VERY SPECIFIC INFORMATION ALONG THAT, I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT AT A LATER TIME. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T CATCH YOUR NAME. >> ELKA. >> THAT'S WHAT I HAD WRITTEN DOWN BUT I WASN'T SURE IF IT WAS CORRECT. FLIRS DECLARING AN INTEREST. THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. FIRST OF ALL I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION AND YOUR DILIGENCE ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE OVER MANY YEARS, OBVIOUSLY. AND I DON'T HAVE ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS FOR YOU. I CERTAINLY DID HEAR WHAT YOU HAD TO SAY AND I HAVE BEEN TAPING THE PROCEEDINGS TODAY SO I'LL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THAT AT MY LEISURE. I KNOW THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF GOOD ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES. I THINK FROM MY PERSPECTIVE ANY THE MAIN ISSUE IS THE ETHICAL ONE. ANYWAY, I APPRECIATE YOUR PRESENCE AND YOUR PRESENTATION HERE TODAY. IF I MAY, TO THE CHAIRMAN, THERE'S BEEN APPEAR LOT OF SUBMISSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE TODAY AND I WAS WONDERING IF I COULD PUT IN A REQUEST THAT ALL OF THE SUBMISSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PROVIDED HERE TO THIS COMMITTEE BE FORWARDED ON TO COUNCIL WHEN THIS REPORT GOES TO COUNCIL. >> WELL, WE HAVEN'T HAD A LOT OF SUBMISSIONS GIVEN TO US. THEY WERE ALL VERBAL. >> OKAY. WELL, I'VE SEEN A FEW. BUT ANY WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS, IF YOU CAN MAKE SURE THEY'RE ADD THE TO THE COUNCIL AGENDA. >> MAY SKI A QUESTION. MY PRINTER BROKE DOWN. I DIDN'T HAVE ONE. SO I WAS NOT ABLE TO DO A REAL FULL SMILGS. MAY I SUBMIT AFTER? >> ABSOLUTELY. IF YOU HAVE SOME INFORMATION THAT YOU CAN PROVIDE TO US, WHETHER YOU SEND IT TO ME DIRECTLY OR TO OTHER MEMBERS OF COUNCIL, I'D APPRECIATE THAT. THANK YOU. >> OUR NEXT SPEAKER IS HELEN MOORE. FOR THOSE THAT ARE COUNTING, THAT'S THE END OF PAGE 1. WE'LL START ON PAGE 2 NEXT. NUMBER 30. 0 OUT OF 50. -- NUMBER 30 OUT OF 50. >> THANK YOU. I'M HELEN MOWATT, A MOTHER AND PROFESSIONAL EDUCATOR AND CONCERNED CALGARIAN. I HAVE LIVED IN CALGARY FOR CLOSE TO FOUR DECADES. I WAS BROUGHT UP AND ENCOURAGED TO BE A DISCERNING AND CARING PERSON. I LEARNED AS A CHILD TO FOLLOW THE GOLDEN RULE OF DOING UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. I AM A GENERALIST AND HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN EDUCATION. I EXPECT ACCOUNTABLE, OPEN, FAIR GOVERNMENT. I ALSO FEEL THAT UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS SHOULD NOT FORCE DECISIONS ON THE PUBLIC BASED ON QUESTIONABLE SCIENCE. IN THE 1970s, I WAS BRAINWASHED FROM AND DID NOT QUESTION AUTHORITIES, OFFICIALS, OR EXPERTS. CALGARY REGIONAL HEALTH AUTHORITY, CRHA, RECOMMENDED CHILDREN BE GIVEN FLUORIDE DROPS TO HELP WITH TOOTH DECAY. IN 1989, CRHA CONDUCTED AN IMPROPER PLEBISCITE WITHOUT GIVING CITIZENS ALL THE FACTS AND LIKEWISE IN 1998 CRHA SPENT 250.000 OF THAT MONEY -- OF TAXPAYERS MONEY PROMOTING THIS UNEVIDENT CAL METHOD OF MEDICATING EVERY CALGARIAN. READING HISTORY I FOUND OUT FLUORIDE WAS GIVEN TO THE MASS INSIDE GERMANY DURING THE HOLOCAUST TO KEEP THE PRISONERS PASS SICH. IT IS ALSO KNOWN THAT FLUORIDE IS A COMPONENT IN DRUGS LIKE PROZAC. SINCE THE 1950s, MANY KNOWLEDGEABLE AND ETHICAL CALGARIANS FOUGHT NOT TO HAVE THIS POISON PUT IN OUR DRINKING WATER BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD HISTORY, THEY VALUED THE RICH RESOURCES OF PURE, CLEAN MISSOURI WATER, FLUORIDE WAS KEPT OUT OF CALGARY'S DRINKING WATER IN THE FIFTIES, SIXTIES, SEVENTIES, ALONG WITH SIX PLEBISCITES. FINALLY THE POLITICIANS MADE THE DECISION TO PUT THE POISON INTO OUR DRINKING WATER WITHOUT LEGITIMATE SCIENCE NOR PROPER PUBLIC CONSENT IN 1989. AFTER A SLIM MAJORITY PLEBISCITE WHERE ONLY 17% OF CALGARIANS VOTED. THIS WAS A SCAM AND RACKET RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. ONE HAS TO ASK WHO WAS PROMOTING AND PROFITING FROM IT. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THESE WEB SITES. THERE ARE MANY BOOKS AND STUDIES WHICH HAVE PRESENTED FLUORIDE HISTORY AND CONCERNS. THOSE ARE GOOD WEB SITES. NEXT IS SOME BOOKS. AND BY Dr. JAMES BECK IS A CONCERNED CALGARIAN IS HERE AND HE WROTE THE CASE AGAINST FLUORIDE, HOW HAZARDOUS WASTE ENDED UP IN OUR DRINKING WATER AND HOW BAD SCIENCE AND POWERFUL POLITICS HAVE KEPT IT THERE. FINALLY, THEN THERE CAME A SLIDE ABOUT THE CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OF -- ABOUT FLUORIDE AND IT EVEN STARTED THE DEBATE SINCE 1901. AND I'LL LET YOU JUST READ THAT. IT GOES TO Dr. MACKAY, A DENTIST, NOTICED IT ON HIS PATIENT'S TOOTH AND HAS STAINS ON HIS TEETH AND WENT TO THE COLORADO STATE DENTAL ASSOCIATION, AND ARE NOTHING TOO MUCH WAS DONE. THEN Dr. HILL, A CITY COUNCILOR, ASKED THAT THE COUNCILORS MOVE CAUTIOUSLY BECAUSE HE SAID THE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES HAVEN'T BEEN FULLY DETERMINED. NEXT, 1953, THE AMERICAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION DECLARED THAT WATER FLUORIDATION WAS THE GREATEST STEP IN PREVENTION OF DENTISTRY THAT HAS OCCURRED DURING THIS CENTURY. FINALLY IN 1966, THE ALBERTA GOVERNMENT AMENDED THE PUBLIC HEALTH ACT TO PERMIT A SIMPLE MAJORITY VOTE ON FLUORIDATION INSTEAD OF THE TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY PREVIOUSLY REQUIRED. TODAY THERE ARE NO LEGITIMATE SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT FLUORIDE EVEN HELPS TOPICALLY WITH TOOTH DECAY. MANY CREDIBLE STUDIES SHOW THAT IT DELETERIOS EFFECTS ON THE SKELETAL SYSTEM. OTHER PEER REVIEW STUDIES SHOW IT HORS EYE IQ, NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEMS, THYROID PROBLEMS, AND EVEN CANCER. Dr. CARLSON WON A NOBEL PRIZE IN MEDICINE IN 2000 FOR HIS WORK ON THE BRAIN, NEUROLOGY, PLAYED A VERY IMPORTANT, PROMINENT ROLE IN BANNING FLUORIDE IN SWEDEN. OPER HEIMER OF GERMANY WHO PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN THE INVENTION OF THE ATOMIC BOMB QUOTES THESE WORDS FROM A SPIRIT 50U ANCIENT TEXT: NOW I AM BECOME DEATH. THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS. DID YOU KNOW THAT FLUORIDE IS ONE OF THE MOST TOXIC CHEMICALS STILL IN NORTH AMERICA? IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST -- IT WAS ONE OF THE TOXIC COMPONENTS EVALUATED FOR USE IN THE PRODUCTION OF THE ATOMIC BOMB IN WORLD WAR II. Dr. McCOLA STATES WATER FLUORIDATION IS BASED IN AN ABSURD AND UNETHICAL BECAUSE STUDIES SHOW THIS CHEMICAL CAN DAMAGE YOUR BRAIN, IMMUNE, GAS ROW INTESTINAL SYSTEM AND SKELETAL SYSTEM. IT'S SO DANGEROUS A FAMILY SIZED TUBE OF NOR I'D TOOTHPASTE IS TOXIC ENOUGH TO KILL A 25 POUND CHILD. AS A MOM, WHEN I SAW THIS PICTURE OF MY SON, CRAIG, I WAS WORRIED AND CONCERNED. I ARRANGED APPOINTMENT AT THE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL TO SEE A NEUROLOGIST. SADLY HE DIDN'T MAKE ANY CONNECTIONS AND NOR DID HE GIVE ME ANY ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEM. TAKE NOTE OF MY SON'S RIGHT LEG AND RIGHTNAND THESE TWO PICTURES. TO ME THIS DOES NOT SEEM NORMAL. HOWEVER, WITH HOME LINE THINKING AND A MOM'S INTUITION I PUT THE PUZZLE PIECES TOGETHER AND FEEL IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE FLUORIDE DROPS I GAVE HIM WHENERS A LITTLE BOY. TODAY I HAVE LEARNED TO QUESTION THE OFFICIALS, THE EXPERTS, AND WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY BECAUSE OF MY MANY LIVED EXPERIENCES. MANY HISTORICAL ATROCITIES HAVE BEEN CONDUCTED IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE. TODAY I KNOW THAT SELF-INTEREST IS MORE IMPORTANT TO POLITICIANS, BUREAUCRATS, AND CORPORATIONS. MY PASSION WAS TEACHING. TODAY IF SOMEONE TOLD ME YOU JUST HAVE A LARGER AUDIENCE. THIS IS A PICTURE OF THE WATER PIPES AT THE BEARSPAW WATER TREATMENT CENTRE SHOWING (INDISCERNIBLE) TOXIN, TOXIC WASTE EATING THROUGH THE PIPES. IT'S NOT A PRETTY SIGHTS. WHY ARE CALGARIANS -- SUM IT UP? >> PLEASE. >> WHY ARE CALGARIANS BEING DECEIVED IN I'M NOT OPPOSED TO HONEST SCIENCE OR THE USE OF SCIENTIFIC METHODS. HOWEVER COMMONLY SENSE MUST ALWAYS RULE. IT IS MY OPINION THE POLICIES OF FLUORIDATION IS BASED ON SCIENTIFIC FRAUD AND THAT IS THE IMPLEMENT -- AND THIS -- AND THAT ITS IMPLEMENTATION IS CRIMINAL. IT'S NOT EFFECTIVE, NOT SAFE, AND UNETHICAL. FOR UNELECTED AND ELECTEDED OFFICIALS TO FOIST THE HAZARDOUS WASTE UPON CALGARIANS. FLUORIDE IS AVAILABLE IN TOOTHPASTE. I WILL TRUST THAT CITY COUNCIL WILL MAKE USE -- WILL USE COMMON SENSE AND STOP FLUORIDATION NOW. THANK YOU. >> THE NEXT SPEAKER AND COMMITTEE (INDISCERNIBLE) CONFORM SO ALL MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE WILL NEED TO KEEP THEIR SEATS UNTIL WE HAVE (INDISCERNIBLE) MEMBERS. THE NEXT SPEAKER IS JAMES BECK. >> WHAT I HEARD THUS FAR TODAY HAS PRESENTED ME WITH A DILEMMA. YOU HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH A LOT OF TESTIMONY, AND I THINK THAT TESTIMONY COMES FROM INDIVIDUALS WHO -- WITH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND EFFECTS ON THEIR OWN LIVES HAS TO BE LISTENED TO AND RESPECTED. YOU'VE ALSO HEARD A LOT OF TESTIMONY FROM OFFICIALS FROM ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES, AND QUITE A LOT OF THAT TESTIMONY HAS OMITTED MUCH EVIDENCE COUNTER TO THEIR CONCLUSIONS AND HAS MISREPRESENTED SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT IS INDICATION OF HARM OF FLUORIDATION. SO I HAVE ABOUT THREE BEIGES HERE -- THREE PAGES HERE OF NOTES OF THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE SUSTAINED OUT BUT I GUESS I MUST NOT DO THAT. FIVE MINUTES ISN'T MUCH TIME. HERE, BY THE WAY, I HAVE COPIES OF WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY, IF YOU WANT THOSE, AND I'M TELLING ME CIV SELF I CAN READ THIS IN THREE MINUTES SO I'LL GIVE IT A GOOD SHOT. SOME OF YOU ON THE COMMITTEE HAVE HEARD ME BEFORE ON FLUORIDATION. I HAVE IN THE PAST FOCUSED ON QUESTIONS OF EFFECTIVENESS IN PREVENTING CAVITIES AND ON THE ADVERSE EFFECTS OF FLUORIDE AND OF HEXAFLUORAL ACID. THERE ARE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE INSIDE HOW YOU PUT FLUORIDE ION INTO CITY WATER, WHETHER YOU USE HEXA FLUORAL ACID OR SOMETHING ELSE. THAT WAS DISMISSED BY THE MEDICAL OFFICER OF HEALTH AND IT HAS TO BE CONSIDERED. I HAVE GIVEN REASONS BASED ON PEER REVIEWED RESEARCH PAPERS PUBLISHED INCREDIBLE JOURNALS FOR CONCLUDING THE FLUORIDATION IS AT BEST MINIMALLY EFFECTIVE AND DEFINITELY HARMFUL TO SUB GROUPS OF THE POPULATION AND QUITE POSSIBLY HARMFUL TO ALL OF US. SO IN THESE FEW MINUTES I'LL COMMENT ONLY ON THE ETHICAL ISSUES. IN 1957, THE SUPREME COURT OF CANADA RULED THAT FLUORIDATION IS "COMPULSORY, PREVENTIVE MEDICATION". THE COURT'S RULING IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT LEGITIMIZES THE COMMONSENSE CONCLUSION THAT WE ARE BEING MEDICATED, AND IT PUTS THE MATTER CLEARLY IN THE REALM OF MEDICAL ETHICS. AND MEDICAL ETHICS IN TURN IS EMBEDDED IN HUMAN RIGHTS. NOW, HERE'S HOW FLUORIDATION VIOLATES THE CODE OF MEDICAL ETHICS: IT IS ADMINISTRATION OF A DRUG WITHOUT CONTROL OF DOSAGE, CONTROLLING CONCENTRATION HAS BEEN DISCUSSED EXCESSIVELY, NOT CONTROL OF THE DOSE OR THE DOSAGE. IT IS ADMINISTRATION OF DRUG WITHOUT INFORMED CONSENT OF THE RECIPIENT. IT DOES NOT PROVIDE MONITORING OF THE EFFECTS OF THE DRUG ON THE RECIPIENT. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THE RECIPIENT TO STOP RECEIVING THE DRUG. MANY CANNOT GET NON-FLORIDATED WATER AND NONE OF US CAN AVOID EXPOSURE FROM FOODS AND DRINKS PROCESSED WHERE TAP WATER IS FLORIDATED. THE DRUG HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN TO BE SAFE FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. ALL OF THOSE POINTS DISQUALIFY FLUORIDATION OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLIES AS A MEDICALLY ETHICAL PROCEDURE. THE FLUORIDATION OF A PUBLIC WATER SUPPLY IS NOT ONLY AN ETHICAL OFFENCE AGAINST US ALL, IT IS CLEARLY A MORE SERIOUS OFFENCE AGAINST THOSE SUBGROUPS OF OUR POPULATION WHICH ARE PARTICULARLY AT RISK OF HARM FROM FLUORIDE. THESE GROUPS INCLUDE INFANTS BEING FED WITH FORMULA RECONSTITUTED WITH TAP WATER, DIABETICS, PERSONS DEFICIENT IN EYE FINE INTAKE, PERSONS WITH KIDNEY DISEASE, BOYS DOING THE 8-YEAR-OLD GROWTH SPURT, AND OTHERS. IT IS AN OBLIGATION OF CITY COUNCILS AND OF ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES TO PROTECT NOT ALL -- PROTECT ALL, NOT JUST THE AVERAGE AND NOT JUST THE MAJORITY. SEVERAL COUNCILORS HAVE RIGHTLY BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE DENTAL HEALTH OF CHILDREN OF LOW INCOME FAMILIES. IT IS SAID THAT FLUORIDATION IS A PARTICULAR BENEFIT TO POOR CHILDREN. WELL, THAT QUESTION HAS BEEN INVESTIGATED WITH STUDIES THAT WERE DESIGNED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION. IT IS FOUND THAT THE FLORIDATED POOR GROUPS HAVE NO BETTER CAVITY EXPERIENCE THAN DO THE NON-FLORIDATED POOR GROUPS. FURTHERMORE, IT IS FOUND THAT THE PREVALENCE OF CAVITIES INCREASES AS FAMILY INCOME DECREASES. IT'S NOT FLUORIDE THAT WOULD BENEFIT POOR CHILDREN. IT'S A HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING. PROBABLY A BETTER DIET AND BETTER ORAL HYGIENE. WHAT KIND OF AN ETHICAL CONSCIOUSNESS ALLOWS ONE TO CONTINUE TO APPLY A POSSIBLY HARMFUL PROCESS TO UNWILLING PEOPLE UNTIL THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF IT IS HARMFUL. I HAVE SEEN THIS BACKWARD APPROACH TO SAFETY AND GOVERNMENT REPORTS ON FLUORIDATION. IT GOES LIKE THIS. THIS STUDY THAT SHOWS ASSOCIATION OF FLUORIDATION WITH THIS HARMFUL EFFECT IS NOT A PERFECT STUDY. THIS ARE WEAKNESSES. THEREFORE WE WILL CONTINUE THE PROCESS UNTIL IT IS SHOWN WITH CERTAINTY THAT IT IS HARMFUL. AND AT THE SAME TIME IN THESE REPORTS NO FURTHER RESEARCH IS RECOMMENDED. NO RESPONSIBILITY TO SUPPORT A BETTER STUDY IS ACCEPTED. AND THE PRESENCE OF A SMALL AND DUBIOUS BENEFIT, SUCH A CONCLUSION -- >> DOCTOR -- >> -- MORE THAN BEING IRRESPONSIBLE IS OUTLANDISH. SO I WILL END BY SAYING YOU DON'T HAVE THE MORAL RIGHT TO DO THIS TO US, TO 1 MILLION PEOPLE. YOU SHOULD STOP IT NOW. >> THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. WE HAVE SOME QUESTIONS. ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> YOU SAY THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN SAFE FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. COULD YOU ELABORATE ON THAT FOR ME, PLEASE. >> THERE HAVE -- PRINCIPAL GOVERNMENTS NOW INVOLVED IN THE WHOLE WORLD IN TERMS OF FLUORIDATION ARE THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA. THE UNITED STATES, IT HAS BEEN SAID BY THE FEDERAL DRUG AGENCY THAT IT'S NOT BEEN EXAMINED FOR SAFETY FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION, AND IT'S NOT AN APPROVED DRUG. IT'S WHAT'S CLASSIFIED AS AN UNAPPROVED DRUG. IN THE CASE OF HEALTH CANADA, HEALTH CANADA APPROVES OF IT, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND OUT WHY. I AND A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SUBMITTED PETITIONS TO HEALTH CANADA THROUGH THE FEDERAL AUDITOR'S OFFICE, WHICH IN THE LAW REQUIRES THAT HEALTH CANADA ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS WITHIN A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME AND SO ON. WE GOT ANSWERS BACK. WE ASKED FOR THE EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAVE FOR SAFETY AND THE EVIDENCE THEY HAVE FOR EFFICACY AND THEY JUST DON'T ANSWER. THEY DON'T GIVE US ANY CITATIONS AND SO I PERSONALLY GAVE UP THAT PURSUIT. I DIDN'T CONTINUE BECAUSE I DON'T EXPECT IT TO PAY OFF. I IN FACT FRANKLY EXPECT TO YOU STOP FLORIDATING CALGARY IN ANY WAY LONG BEFORE COULD I GET AN ANSWER OUT OF HAURND. PETER COONY, THE FEDERAL OFFICER OF DENTAL HEALTH, HE HAS NO WAY TO SUPPORT FLUORIDATION. HE DOESN'T SEEM TO RESPOND IN A KNOWLEDGEABLE BEYE WAY, AND HE HAS CONTRIBUTED IN ONE MEETING, INTERNATIONAL MEETING, ABOUT FLUORIDATION THAT HE SAYS HE WALKED DOWN YOUR HIGH STREET, AND I HAVEN'T SEEN PEOPLE WITH HORNS. AND THAT'S HOW SERIOUSLY HE TAKES THE PROBLEM. IT'S JUST BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO GET SATISFACTORY RESPONSES FROM THAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP. >> SO YOU'RE SUGGESTING -- YOU'RE TELLING US THAT THERE'S BEEN NO FDA TESTING ON FLUORIDE AS A DRUG OR FLUORIDE IN GENERAL? >> RIGHT. AND ALSO UNAPPROVED DRUG -- I DON'T THINK THAT INCLUDES HEXA FLUORALACILIC ACID AND THERE WERE SOME MISLEADING COMMENTS MADE EARLIER TODAY ABOUT THE CHEMISTRY INVOLVED. IT WAS DOES MATTER WHERE THAT FLUORIDE COMES FROM. THAT IS WHAT'S ADDED TO THE WATER. IT COULD MATTER VERY MUCH. FOR ONE THING IT'S TRUE THAT ALMOST ALL THE FLUORIDE IS ASSOCIATED FROM THE HEXA FLUORAL ACID IN VERY DILUTE SOLUTION IN WATER BUT THE SICI -- SILICATES ENTER YOUR BODY WHEN YOU DRINK THE WATER AS DOES THE FLUORIDE ION IN A VERY ACIDIC ENVIRONMENT SUCH AS IN THE STOMACH, PH OF 1.2 OR SO. THE FLUORIDE REASSOCIATES WITH SILICATES AND THIS ISN'T CERTAIN BUT WE DO KNOW THAT INGESTION OF THE ACID HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH LESIONS IN THE MUCOSA OF THE INTESTINES AND IT MAY BE BECAUSE OF THIS RECOMBINATION OF FLUORALSILICATES AND THE OTHER POINT IS IT OF INTEREST ON A CITY-WIDE SCALE BECAUSE THE FLUORIDATION IS ASSOCIATED ALSO WITH HIGHER LEAD LEVELS IN THE BLOOD OF CHILDREN. AND THE PROBLEM EXPLANATION OF THAT IS LEAD IS LEECHED OUT OF THE JOINTS IN THE PLUMBING SYSTEM. I KNOW WE DON'T USE LEAD PIPES ANYMORE, BUT WE SOLDER JOINTS WITH A FLUX THAT HAS LEAD IN IT. AND THIS HAS BEEN DEFINITELY DEMONSTRATED AND QUANTIFIED THAT THAT ASSOCIATION -- WE KNOW THAT WITH VERY RECENT RESEARCH THAT CAME AFTER SOME OF THE VERY GOOD STUDIES, FOR EXAMPLE, THE NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL 2006 REPORT WHICH INTERESTED TO SEE OUR COLLEAGUES FROM ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICE MENTION AMONG THEIR SYSTEM -- SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS, BUT THIS HAS SHOWN THAT THERE IS -- IN LABORATORY ANIMALS YOU'VE GOT HIGHER LEVELS IN THE TOOTH ENAMEL OF LEAD AND HIGHER LEVELS OF LEAD AND BONE AND HUMANS AND CHILDREN YOU DO OBSERVE HIGHER LEVELS IN THEIR BLOOD AND FLORIDATED AREAS, HIGH LEVELS OF LEAD NOW, AND THERE'S NO DISPUTE HERE, I'M SURE, OUR COLLEAGUES WOULD AGREE WITH ME, THAT LEAD A WELL-KNOWN NEUROTOXIN. AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING WE WANT OUR CHILDREN TO BE EXPOSED TO. >> SPEAKING OF THE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THAT WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT TODAY, YOU'RE REFERENCING SEVERAL THINGS, THEY'RE REFERENCING OTHER THINGS. HOW IS THE LAYMAN SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT THEIR REVIEWS ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE STUDIES THAT YOU'RE PUTTING FORWARD AND TO SAY WHICH ARE THE ONES THAT WE SHOULD BE RELYING ON? >> WELL, I'VE MENTIONED ONLY ONE SYSTEMATIC REVIEW AND THAT'S THE NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL REVIEW FROM 2006. BUT THIS WAS DONE BY A PANEL OF 12 SCIENTISTS, SOME OF WHOM, BEFORE THEY STARTED THIS STUDY, WERE IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDATION, SOME OF WHOM WERE AGAINST FLUORIDATION, AND SOME OF WHOM HAD NO POSITION ON THE MATTER. THEY STUDIED THE PROBLEM FOR THREE YEARS. THEY LOOKED AT 1100 PRIMARY RESEARCH PAPERS. I'LL MAKE A DISTINCTION IN A MOMENT. AND THEY BASED THEIR CONCLUSIONS AND THEIR ANALYSIS ON PRIMARY RESEARCH. NOW, PRIMARY RESEARCH IS RESEARCH WHERE DATA IS GATHERED AND ANALYZED AND EVALUATED IN A PROPER MANNER, WHEREAS SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS OR NON-SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS ARE JUST REVIEWS OF HOPEFULLY OF PRIMARY RESEARCH. BUT IN MANY CASES IN THE FLUORIDATION CASE, WE HAVE SORT OF AN INVERTED PYRAMID WHERE ALL THESE PANELS, THIS DENTAL ASSOCIATION AND THAT MEDICAL ASSOCIATION AND SO ON, SAY FLUORIDE IS WONDERFUL BECAUSE THIS REVIEW SAID IT WAS. AND THIS REVIEW SAID IT WAS BECAUSE SOME OTHER REVIEWS SAID IT WAS. AND SOMETIMES WHEN YOU GO DEEP ENOUGH, YOU COME DOWN TO THE POINT OF THIS UPSIDE-DOWN PYRAMID AND IT'S A GROUP OF GOVERNMENT APPOINTED (INDISCERNIBLE) -- GOVERNMENT APPOINTED PRO-FLUORIDATION PEOPLE AND YOU CAN'T REALLY CREDIT THAT KIND OF REVIEW. IT HAS TO BE DONE BETTER THAN THAT. ANOTHER REVIEW ASIDE FROM THE NRC 2006 REVIEW, THERE WAS WHAT'S CALLED THE YORK REVIEW WHICH CAME OUT IN THE YEAR 2000 FROM GREAT BRITAIN AND THE CHAIR OF THAT REVIEW PANEL HAS SINCE THEN BEEN COMPLAINING THE PROPONENTS ARE USING THE YORK REVIEW TO SUPPORT THEIR CONCLUSION THAT FLUORIDATION IS WONDERFUL. AND THAT'S NOT WHAT THE REPORT SAYS. THIS REPORT -- I THINK THIS IS THE ONE WHERE THEY START THE OUT, LOOKED AT A 214 OR 220 OR SOMETHING, MAYBE LUKE SCHWARTZ KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT BECAUSE HE TALKED ABOUT IT ONCE TO A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THIS COMMITTEE. AND THEY LOOKED AT THESE 2 HUNDRED DOLLARS AND-SOME-ODD STUDIES AND CLASSIFIED THE STUDIES IN THREE LEVELS: GRADE A, B, AND C AS TO THE COMPETENCE OF THE STUDY. THEY FOUND NO GRADE A AND AMONG THE B AND C THEY MANAGED TO GET 12. AND THE CONCLUSION OF THE REPORT IS WE HAVE NO WAY TO SAY WHETHER THIS IS GOOD OR BAD. SO HOW YOU CAN SAY THAT THAT MADE FLUORIDATION GOOD IS BEYOND ME. SO I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND YOU HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE YOU'RE CITING? WHEN I TALK TO YOU MEMBERS OF COUNCIL IN THE PAST, I TRIED TO EMPHASIZE THIS POINT FROM BOTH THE PROPONENTS AND OPPONENTS. YOU MUST ASK WHAT IT IS -- THE BASIS OF THEIR CONCLUSIONS. AND I THINK WHEN YOU'VE ASKED Dr. DIXON OR ME ABOUT THAT OVER THE LAST YEARS, WE HAVE GIVEN YOU -- MENTIONED, ANYWAY. WE HAVEN'T READ THEM TO YOU, OBVIOUSLY. BUT WE'VE GIVEN YOU CITATIONS OF PRIMARY RESEARCH, NOT TO JUST REVIEWS. >> A LOT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED ABOUT A POSSIBLE MEDICAL REVIEW THROUGH THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE, UFRTD OF CALGARY, AND THAT WOULD BE A WONDERFUL WAY FOR PEOPLE TO COME AND TELL US WHETHER WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO FLORIDATE OR DISCONTINUE FLORIDATING. CAN YOU GIVE ME YOUR VIEWS ON WHAT THAT MAY LOOK LIKE, WHETHER YOU WOULD ENCOURAGE THAT OR DISCOURAGE THAT. WHAT WOULD YOUR VIEWPOINT ON THAT? >> MY FIRST REACTION IS I THINK YOU SHOULD JUST STOP FLUORIDATION AND THAT WILL SETTLE THE PROBLEM BECAUSE WE'VE HAD A LOT OF REVIEWS AND DISCUSSIONS AND SO ON. I'M NOT AGAINST THE FACULTIES OF MEDICINE HOSTING OR EVEN ORGANIZING SUCH APPEAR REVIEW, BUT I WOULD CAUTION YOU AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE THERE'S SOMEBODY WEARING A WHITE COAT, DOESN'T MEAN SHE OR HE IS RIGHT. OR EVEN KNOWS WHAT SHE OR HE IS TALKING ABOUT. I'LL GIVE YOU THE EXAMPLE THE DEAN OF MEDICINE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY WAS SAYING HOW THE DOSE IS CONTROLLED, HOW THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF HARM. NOT ONLY HE BUT THE HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY HEALTH SCIENCES. THEY JOINTLY WROTE AN OP ED IN THE HERALD SAYING THESE THINGS. I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THE HUNDREDS OF ARTICLES I HAVE STUDIED DON'T EXIST, BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY. AND I SINCE HAVE HAD A FRIENDLY TALK WITH THE DEAN OF MEDICINE AND HE NO LONGER FEELS THAT CONTROLLING CONCENTRATION IS CONTROLLING DOSE AND HE NO LONGER DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF EVIDENCE OF HARM. SO IF THE FACULTY OF MEDICINE WANTS TO DO THAT, FINE. WHOEVER WANTS TO DISCUSS IT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED IS WELCOME AS LONG AS THEY DO IT RESPONSIBLY. >> OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANKS FOR COMING OUT HERE TONIGHT. >> THANK YOU. THERE ARE SOME MORE QUESTIONS. Dr. BECK. BUT I'M NOT SURE, I SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THIS OR THE CHAIR SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THIS -- >> I'M HAVING TROUBLE HEARING YOU. >> OKAY. CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? I'LL SPEAK A LITTLE LOUDER. >> IT'S MY EARS. >> FOR ANY OF THE PRESENTERS WHO DON'T WANT TO STAND THROUGH LONG QUESTIONING, THERE IS A STOOL, AND WE CAN LOWER THE PODIUM IF IT'S MORE COMFORTABLE. SO THERE'S AN OPTION OPEN FOR EVERYONE WHO'S PRESENTING. ALDERMAN CARRA. >> THANK YOU. ASKED AND ANSWERED. THANK YOU. I DIDN'T REALIZE I STILL HAVE MY LIGHT ON BUT THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. >> THANK YOU. ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS FOR YOU. I GUESS I'D LIKE TO START ON WHAT -- YOU DIDN'T REALLY TOUCH ON THIS, WHAT YOUR CREDENTIALS ARE FOR THIS. YOU'VE GOT A PRETTY STRONG BACKGROUND AS A RESEARCHER AND A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY. CAN YOU JUST TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH BACKGROUND AND HOW YOU CAME TO THE ISSUE OF FLUORIDE. >> MY RESEARCH BACKGROUND? >> YES. >> MY RESEARCH BACKGROUND HAS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH FLUORIDE OR FLUORIDATION. MY OBJECTION NOW -- I SHOULD MAKE IT CLEAR. MY OBJECTION IS THE FLUORIDATION OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLIES. TO SAY I'M AGAINST FLUORIDE IS KIND OF SILLY. IT'S THERE, IT'S IN THE PERIODIC TABLE, IT'S IN OUR WATER NATURALLY. BUT WHAT HAPPENED -- WHAT BROUGHT ME TO THIS POSITION -- I DON'T PARTICULARLY ENJOY DOING THIS. IS ABOUT 10 OR 11 YEARS AGO, I WAS INVITED TO JOIN A COMMITTEE OF KNIFE DENTISTS AND ONE FAMILY PRACTITIONER WHO WERE OPPOSED TO FLUORIDE TO SEE WHETHER WE COULD ADVANCE THAT EFFORT. AND I HADN'T REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT FLUORIDATION BEFORE THAT. BUT WHEN I FIRST LOOKED AT THE ISSUE, THE THING THAT APPALLED ME WAS THE ETHICS OF IT OR THE LACK OF ETHICS OF IT. BUT IN ANY CASE, IT MADE ME THINK THAT YES, SOMEBODY OUGHT TO DO SOMETHING TO STOP THIS. AND THEN I BEGAN TO STUDY THE SCIENCE ON IT. THE SCIENCE INVOLVES THE QUESTION OF EFFICACY. DOES IT REALLY PREVENT CAVITIES. AND THE OTHER ASPECT OF THE SCIENCE IS DOES IT DO HARM. IS IT TOXIC. AND SO I'VE SPENT THE LAST TEN YEARS LOOKING INTO THAT. AND I'VE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT OF THOSE THREE QUESTIONS ON EFFICACY AND TOXICITY ALL HAVE TO BE ANSWERED NO. IN ADDITION, I SHOULD COMMENT THAT A LOT OF THE EVIDENCE WE SEE IS UNCERTAIN. THAT'S SOMETHING I SUPPOSE WE COULD AGREE ON WITH SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES. BUT SOME OF IT IS NOT SO UNCERTAIN. THERE ARE SOME VERY STRONG RESULTS THAT INDICATE PARTICULAR TOXICITIES, BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, IF THERE'S EVEN DOUBTY DOUBT AND IF THE POSSIBLE BENEFIT IS MINIMAL, THEN WE SHOULD STOP DOING IT UNTIL WE KNOW IT'S OKAY. INSTEAD OF THIS BACKWARD POSITION I DESCRIBED THAT I READ ABOUT IN GOVERNMENT REPORTS THAT WELL, WE DON'T KNOW SO WE'LL KEEP DOING IT. SOME YEARS AGO, THERE'S SEVERAL UNIONS OF WITHIN THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY IN THE UNITED STATES, UNITS OF A SCIENTIST, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 7,000 AND 11.000 PEOPLE. THEY PETITIONED THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES TO DECLARE A MORATORIUM ON FLUORIDATION UNTIL IT'S SHOWN TO BE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE. WHAT'S INTERESTING HERE IS THAT THE SCIENTIFIC STANCE OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY IN GENERAL THINKS FLUORIDATION SHOULD BE STOPPED AND NOT RESTARTED. BUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY AS AN AGENCY IS A STRONG PROMOTER OF FLUORIDATION. THE DESIGNERS OF THAT PROMOTION OF FLUORIDATION ARE THE POLITICAL APPOINTEES AT THE TOP. >> THANK YOU. >> DID I ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? I GET LOST SOMETIMES. >> YEAH. YES, YOU DID, ACTUALLY. I WAS WONDERING HOW YOU CAME TO THIS ISSUE, ALTHOUGH I WAS UNAWARE THAT YOUR RESEARCH BACKGROUND WAS -- >> I SHOULD -- I AM A PHYSICIAN, AND I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF POLITICAL EXPERIENCE. AFTER GRADUATING FROM MEDICAL SCHOOL, I HAD ONE YEAR OF INTERNSHIP AND THEN I TOOK A POST-DOCTORAL FELLOWSHIP TO DO RESEARCH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA IN BERKELEY, AND THERE I ENDED UP TAKING A PH.D. IN BIOPHYSICALICS. SO MY RESEARCH EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN VARIED. INITIALLY I WAS IN RADIO BIOLOGY BUT HAVE DONE WORK ON BIOPHYSICALICS OF RED BLOOD CELLS AND I'VE DONE SOME COLLABORATIONS, THEORETICAL WORK, FOR PEOPLE IN OTHER EXPERIMENTAL FIELDS AND ENDED UP MAINLY INVOLVED WITH FARM CAL KINETICS. >> THANK YOU, I APPRECIATE THAT. MY NEXT QUESTION IS ABOUT -- YOU MENTIONED LEAD LEVELS. >> WHAT? >> LEVELS OF LEAD. YOU'RE RELATING THAT TO FLUORIDE. YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT FLUORIDE CAUSES HIGH LEVELS OF LEAD. IS THE RESEARCH TO SUPPORT THAT OR IS THAT AN OPINION? >> YES, I HOPE I HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING THAT ISN'T SUPPORTED BY RESEARCH. BUT I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT THE DIFFERENCE. I SHOULD HAVE FINISHED THIS WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SOURCE OF THE FLUORIDE WE GET BY ADDING WHATEVER IT IS TO WATER, TO OUR CITY WATER. THE NATURAL FLUORIDE GENERALLY, PERHAPS IN ALL CASES, THAT WE GET, SAY, FROM WELLS OR FROM RIVERS SUCH AS THE BOW RIVER AND ELBOW RIVER, COMES FROM THE EARTH'S CRUST, FROM MINUTEICALS IN THE EARTH'S CRUST. IT IS USUALLY, OR ALMOST ALL, CALCIUM FLUORIDE. SO WHEN WE -- THERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN THE ABSORPTION OF CALCIUM FLUORIDE THAN THERE IS FROM THE ABSORPTION INTO THE BODY OF OTHER FLORIDES LIKE SODIUM FLUORIDE. THE SODIUM FLUORIDE WILL DISASSOCIATE INTO SODIUM IONS AND FLUORIDE IONS ALMOST COMPLETELY. CALCIUM FLUORIDE NOT SO COMPLETELY. IF YOU GET YOUR FLUORIDE FROM MOST SOURCES OF NATURAL FLUORIDE, YOU WILL EXCRETE SOME OF IT IN THE FECES SO YOU WON'T ABSORB AS MUCH INTO THE BODY. ONCE IT'S ABSORBED INTO THE BODY, GENERALLY WE SEQUESTER 50% OF IT IN A NORMAL PERSON, HEALTHY PERSON, AND ABOUT 50% OF IT IS SECRETED THROUGH THE KIDNEYS. THAT OTHER 50%, MOSTLY, IS SEQUESTERED IN THE BONE. BUT WHEREVER IT GOES, IT BUILDS UP THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE MUSN'T FORGET. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT OH, WILL I GET SICK TOMORROW. >> OKAY, I GUESS MY QUESTION WAS AROUND THE LEAD. I'M NOT SURE IF WE'RE TALKING LOCAL FLUORIDE. WE HAVE OLD HOMES THAT HAVE LEAD -- OLD PIPES. WE'VE GOT AGING INFRASTRUCTURE. WE HAVE KIDS' TOYS. I'M NOT SURE -- BANT, ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE'VE DISCOVERED THERE'S LEAD IN, AND I GUESS MY QUESTION WAS YOU WERE MAKING THE POINT ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FLUORIDE AND LEAD AND I JUST -- I WASN'T CLEAR ON THAT. MY NEXT QUESTION RELATES TO SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS WITH RESPECT TO GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES AND ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES BEING PRO-FLUORIDE. HOW DO YOU DISTINGUISH BETWEEN HAVING A POSITION THAT YOU WOULD FRAME AS BEING PRO-FLUORIDE WHICH SOUNDS IN SOME WAYS UNREASONED AS OPPOSED TO HAVING WEIGHED THE EVIDENCE AND SAYING ON BALANCE I SUPPORT FLUORIDE FOR THESE REASONS, AS A SCIENTIFIC THING. AND THE REASON I ASK IS BECAUSE THE TERM PRO-FLUORIDE SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE BIT LOADED, AND I'M WONDERING HOW YOU'RE COMING AT THAT. YOU ALSO TOOK SOME AIM AT GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES IN PUBLIC HEALTH, AND I'D JUST LIKE TO KNOW WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM ON THAT BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'VE DONE AN AWFUL LOT OF WORK AROUND THIS, SO I'M CURE CURE -- I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW HOW YOU TRIED TO RESOLVE THAT AND HAVE COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. >> AMONG PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST FLUORIDATION, PRO-FLUORIDE MAY WELL BE A LOADED TERM. BUT AMONG THOSE IN FAVOUR OF FLUORIDATION, ANTI-FLUORIDE IS AN EVEN MORE LOADED TERM. WE'RE DEFAMED EVERY DAY. BUT THE -- I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO FAR OFF YOUR QUESTION SPECIFICALLY IS HOW DO I WHAT NOW? >> MY QUESTION IS HOW HAVE YOU COME TO THAT CONCLUSION BECAUSE -- IF SOMEBODY'S WEIGHED EVIDENCE AND THEY COME WITH A RESPECTED OPINION, HOW IS IT YOU DIFFERENTIATE THAT AND HAVE YOU TRIED TO RESOLVE THE DIFFERENCES? YOU'RE MAKING ACCUSATION THAT IS THEY'RE NOT READINGS THE RESEARCH. THEY'RE SAYING THAT THEY'VE READ TONNES OF RESEARCH AND DONE SYSTEMIC STUDIES ABOUT THE RESEARCH ALL OUT THERE AND ON BALANCE HAVE COME TO THIS CONCLUSION. >> OKAY, I COME TO THIS CONCLUSION AS FOLLOWS: I'VE TALKED TO THREE MEDICAL OFFICERS OF HEALTH IN ALBERTA OVER THE YEARS. THE OVERWHELMING IMPRESSION I HAVE IS THEY DON'T KNOW WHO THE -- WHAT THE LITERATURE IS ON THIS, EITHER PRO OR AGAINST. AND THAT'S OKAY EXCEPT AT SOME POINT IT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO KNOW, BUT WHAT'S NOT OKAY IS FOR OFFICIALS WITH -- WHETHER THERE ARE GOVERNMENTAL OFFICIALS IN THE ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICE OR WHETHER THEY'RE DEANS OF MEDICINE AND HEADS OF COMMUNITY HEALTH SCIENCES DEPARTMENTS. WHEN PEOPLE START TALKING PUBLICLY FROM POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC HAS RESPECT FOR, THEN THEY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR SAYING WHAT THEY SAY. AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TELL ME THOSE REASONS. SO THAT'S ONE PROBLEM. THE OTHER PROBLEM, AND THE STORIES HERE THAT SORT OF SUPPORT THIS ARE MORE FROM THE UNITED STATES THAN CANADA BUT SOMEBODY MENTIONED EARLIER TODAY THE PRESSURE ON EMPLOYEES OF AGENCIES THAT ARE PROMOTING FLUORIDE TO COME UP WITH THE RIGHT ANSWERS. AND WE HAVE A NUMBER OF CASES OF SCIENTIST WHO IS DID LEGITIMATE, COMPETENT RESEARCH THAT TURNED OUT TO SHOW EVIDENCE OF HARM AND THEY WERE TOLD NOT TO PUBLISH THEIR PAPERS BUT THEY DID PUBLISH THEIR PAPERS AND GOT FIRED. THERE SEEMS TO BE ALSO A TENDENCY OF SCIENTISTS, AT LEAST IN THE UNITED STATES IN THIS AREA, TO FEEL THAT THEY CAN'T GET SUPPORT FOR THEIR RESEARCH UNLESS THEY SAY FLUORIDE IS A GOOD THING. IT'S REALLY KIND OF BIZARRE SOMETIMES. I'VE READ A NUMBER OF PAPERS WHERE IN THE ABSTRACT IT SAYS THIS IS -- FIND THIS EVIDENCE OF HARM, THIS EVIDENCE OF HARM, AND THEIR CONCLUSION IS THAT IT'S WONDERFUL. OR THERE'S THE INTRODUCTION TO THE PAPER THAT SAYS THE PURPOSE OF THIS INVESTIGATION WAS TO SHOW THAT FLUORIDE IS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE. WELL, THAT'S NOT AN INVESTIGATION. THAT'S THE ANSWER. AND IT'S AN ANSWER THAT IS UNSUBSTANTIATED. >> SO IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOUR ANSWER CORRECTLY, YOU'RE SAYING THAT THEY'RE UNINFORMED AND THE -- AT LEAST STATESIDE THERE'S A CONSPIRACY TO -- OR WHATEVER. SOME KIND OF PRESSURE NOT TO PUBLISH THE RESEARCH OR SOME EXTERNAL PUSH NOT TO HAVE THE RESEARCH. >> I'M NOT SAYING THAT THEY'RE UNINFORMED. I'M JUST SAYING IN OUR DISCUSSIONS THEY HAVEN'T SHOWN ME TO BE INFORMED AND I WOULD LIKE TO BE INFORMED ON THE STUDIES THEY SAY SHOW FLUORIDATION, FOR EXAMPLE, IS EFFECTIVE BECAUSE I KNOW WHO MANY PROPONENTS RELY ON THERE AND THOSE STUDIES THAT THEY RELY ON DON'T SHOW EFFICACY SO WE HAVE TO DISCUSS THAT AND SEE WHO'S READING THE PAPERS RIGHTS. IF I'M MISUNDERSTANDING, I WANT THEM TO STRAIGHTEN ME OUT. SO THAT'S WHAT LED ME TO THESE REMARKS BECAUSE THESE OFFICIALS OF ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES HAVE MADE STATEMENTS HERE TODAY THAT ARE PATENTLY WRANG. LIKE THE COMMENTS ON DOSE AND THE THINGS LIKE THAT, THE COMMENTS THAT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF MEDICAL HARM. THERE IS EVIDENCE. >> WE'VE BEEN TALKING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT RESEARCH IN ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES. IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT SOME OF THAT DEBATE SHOULD BE HAPPENING AT A PROVINCIAL LEVEL IF THEY'RE PERMITING IT TO BE PUT IN THE WATER. I REALIZE THERE'S A LEVEL AT THE MUNICIPALITY HERE, BUT IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT ALBERTA HEALTH SERVICES AND THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT ARE IN A BETTER POSITION TO HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DEAL WITH THIS. THAT'S JUST BE A OBSERVATION BASED ON THE INFORMATION YOU JUST GAVE ME WHICH I APPRECIATE. I GUESS THE OTHER THING THAT YOU MENTIONED TO ALDERMAN DEMONG'S QUESTION THAT I APPRECIATED WAS A WILLINGNESS TO THINK ABOUT THIS COMMITTEE AND HOW WE MIGHT STRUCTURE IT. YOU EMPHASIZED SOME OF MY OWN CONCERNS ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT THE COMMITTEE WAS -- THE RESULTS WERE NOT PREDETERMINED, THAT THE COMMITTEE WAS WORKING WITH AN OPEN MIND, AND I THINK THAT IS A CHALLENGE. I CONCUR WITH YOU ON THAT. >> THAT WILL BE HARD TO DO. >> YEAH. HARD TO DO WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO RIGHT NOW TOO. WHICH IS TRY TO FIGURE OUT ON BALANCE WHERE I SEE IT. SO I APPRECIATE THE INPUT AND THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION. >> ALDERMAN CHABOT. >> THANK YOU, Mr. CHAIRMAN. Dr. BECK, CORRECT? Dr. BECK. >> YES. I'M SORRY, THERE'S SOMETHING >> I'M SORRY, THERE'S SOMETHING I DIDN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND IN REGARDS TO A QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED BY ALDERMAN MacLEOD. SPECIFICALLY IN REFERENCE TO THE LEAD ISSUE. ARE YOU SUGGESTING SOMEHOW THAT FLUORIDE IMPACTS THE LEAD IN THE PIPES ON THE JOINTS, MAYBE INCREASES THE LEVEL OR SOMETHING? TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT. >> THE FACTS THAT I CAN BACK UP WITH THE STUDIES THAT I CAN QUOTE AND SEND YOU ARE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FLUORIDATION AND THE LEVEL OF LEAD IN CHILDREN'S BROAD. NOW, OF COURSE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU ASK IS WHERE IS THAT LEAD COMING FROM AND WHY IS IT MORE -- WHY IS THE LEVEL HIGHER IN SUPPOSEDLY COMPARABLE GROUPS OF CHILDREN WHERE THERE'S FLUORIDATION THAN IT IS WHERE THERE IS NO FLUORIDATION. AND WHEN PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED AT THIS, AND THIS I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE RESEARCH ON THIS, BUT I THINK YOUR CITY OFFICIALS CAN TELL YOU WHETHER -- HOW YOUR PIPES ARE SOLDERED TOGETHER AND SO ON, BUT THE EXPLANATION FOR THIS DEMONSTRATED RELATIONSHIP THAT I'VE HEARD IS THAT IT COMES FROM PIPES EVEN THAT ARE NOT LEAD PIPES BECAUSE THE JOINTS ARE CONSTRUCTED WITH SUBSTANCES INVOLVING LEAD WHICH IS LEECHED OUT WITH FLORIDATED WATER. >> SO YOU'RE SAYING EVEN THE PVC HAS A LEAD COMPONENT IN IT? >> PVC WOULDN'T BE SOLDERED, SO THE MAIN INFRASTRUCTURE OF A CITY LIKE CALGARY IS -- WITH WHAT, IRON PIPES? SO THOSE WOULD BE SOLDERED, AND I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THAT SOLDER CONTAINS LEAD. >> INTERESTING. I GUESS THAT'S A QUESTION THAT WE MAY HAVE TO FURTHER CLARIFY WITH ADMINISTRATION. >> BY THE WAY, STUDIES JUST PUBLISHED LAST YEAR WITH ANIMAL STUDIES, IT'S SHOWN THAT IN THE PRESENCE OF FLUORIDE, THE LEAD IS INCORPORATE INTO BONES AND TOOTH 'UNANIMOUS HE WILL. THAT WAS DONE IN RATS. IT HASN'T BEEN DONE, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IN CHILDREN. BUT WE'RE A LOT LIKE RATS. >> SO I'M TOLD. I JUST DIDN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU HAD REFERENCED IN REGARDS TO THE LEAD AND THE ASSOCIATION WITH FLUORIDE SPECIFICALLY AS ALDERMAN MacLEOD HAD ASKED. SO DO YOU HAVE SOME STUDIES THAT YOU CAN PROVIDE TO ME, IF YOU COULD DO THAT I'M SURE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE WOULD ALSO BE INTERESTED IN SEEING THE RESULTS. THANK YOU FOR THAT. I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, Mr. CHAIRMAN. THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU. I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS. THE -- I'M SURPRISED WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM ANYBODY IN THE ENVIRONMENTALIST PROFESSION. I KNOW THAT THERE WAS SOMEONE FROM NATURAL STEP WHO WAS WANTING TO SPEAK. BUT LEFT EARLY. DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS ON THE FLUORIDE AS IT GOES INTO THE WATER SYSTEM? DOES IT TURN INTO -- LOOKS LIKE A NATURAL OCCURRING FLUORIDE? I KNOW THERE'S CONCERN IN THE EAST AROUND THE GREAT LAKES AREA ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE THAT'S GOING INTO THE WATER SYSTEM BECAUSE IT'S NOT BEING CLEANED FROM THE SEWAGE TREATMENT AND A LOT OF IT IS COMING FROM TOOTHPASTE AS WELL. >> SURPRISE, SURPRISE, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. >> I'D LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT IT. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT IT TAKES TO APPROVE A SUBSTANCE BY HEALTH CANADA AND WHAT IT TAKES TO REMOVE A SUBSTANCE BY HEALTH CANADA? IF SOMETHING'S APPROVED YEARS AGO, IF I HAVE SIS, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE THOUGHT ABOUT SCIENCE VERY DIFFERENTLY AND THE SCIENTIFIC INTERVENTION AND MODERN, WHERE IS THE BURDEN OF PROOF? >> I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE PROCESS TO ANSWER THAT. IT'S A LEGAL QUESTION. I HAVE READ QUITE A BIT OF REGULATIONS DURING THE COURSE OF MAKING THOSE -- THAT PETITION FOR INFORMATION FOR HEALTH CANADA, AND THERE ARE MANY SECTIONS, SUBSECTIONS, AND SO ON. SOME OF THEM INCLUDE FLUORIDE AS A TOXIN THAT HAS TO BE CONTROLLED AND SO ON, THEN IN SOME SUBSECTION I CAME TO ONE THAT SAID FLUORIDE IS OKAY. NONE OF THAT STUFF APLIGS. >> I DIDN'T WANT TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT. JUST LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE PARTICULAR TOPIC. THE EXPERIENCE IN EUROPE, WE HEARD FROM ONE PRESENTER WHO TALKED QUITE A BIT ABOUT HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN EUROPE AND HOW THEY WERE REMOVING FLUORIDE FROM THE WATER SUPPLY BUT PROVIDING IT THROUGH OTHER MECHANISMS. AM I SPEAK TO GO SOFTLY? I'LL SPEAK UP. THERE WAS A PRESENTER WHO SPOKE ABOUT HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCE FROM EUROPE AND HOW IN EUROPE THERE WERE -- THEY WERE MOVING FORWARD FROM THE WATER SUPPLY BUT PUTTING IN IN OTHER SUBSTANCES LIKE SO THE. SO A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. THE -- WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE IDEA OF OBTAINING FLUORIDE THROUGH OTHER MECHANISMS, INGESTING FLUORIDE THROUGHOUT OTHER MECHANISMS? LET ME LET YOU ANSWER THAT ONE FIRST. >> I WOULD NOT DO IT TO MYSELF, AND I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE ELSE DO IT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK FLUORIDE INGESTED HAS ANY BENEFICIAL EFFECTS, NO SUBSTANTIAL LEVEL. >> MY SECOND QUESTION IS EUROPE COMPARED TO NORTH AMERICA. ONTARIO COMPARED TO QUEBEC. CALGARY COMPARED TO VANCOUVER. CAN WE SHOW -- CAN WE DEMONSTRATE THAT FLUORIDE HAS BEEN BENEFICIAL? >> NO. IN THE CASE OF EUROPE, THE -- MOST COUNTRIES STOPPED FLORIDATING. THEY WERE FLORIDATING DURING THE SEVENTIES. AND THE REASONS THAT WERE GIVEN FOR THAT BY THEIR OFFICIALS WERE ACTUALLY THE THREE REASONS I'VE GIVEN WHY WE SHOULD NOT HAVE IT. SOME OF THEM JUST SAID WELL, IT'S ETHICALLY UNACCEPTABLE. IT'S FORCING MEDICATION ON PEOPLE. AND THAT WAS ENOUGH. THEY STOPPED. AND OTHERS SAID WELL, DOESN'T SEEM TO BE BENEFICIAL. AND SOME OF THEM -- NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT SOME OF THEM MENTIONED THE POSSIBILITY OF TOXICITY. SO IN THE CASE OF EUROPE. IN THE CASE OF -- BY THE WAY, I SHOULD TELL YOU THIS MAY SPUR YOUR SPIRITS AS POLITICIANS VOTING ON AN ISSUE LIKE THIS, BUT OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS DOZENS OF COMMUNITIES AND JURISDICTIONS IN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE STOPPED FLUORIDATION OR REFUSED TO START FLUORIDATION, AND I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE LEARNING THINGS THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE. >> QUEBEC CITY STOPPED FLORIDATING. THE ISSUE OF POVERTY IS SOMETHING THAT I CARE PARTICULARLY ABOUT. AND YET WE'RE HEARING FROM -- WE HEARD FROM SOME POVERTY GROUPS SUGGESTING THAT THERE'S BETTER WAYS TO USE THAT MONEY. ANOTHER POVERTY GROUP WHO ARE -- WELL, NOT MAYBE POVERTY GROUPS BUT OTHERS ARE PEOPLE ADVOCATING FOR THOSE IN POVERTY THAT IT'S NECESSARY TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD. FOR CHILDREN OF LOW INCOME FAMILIES. >> WELL, FOR ME IT'S CLEAR THAT THE INCIDENT DENSE OF PREVALENCE OF DENTAL CARIES, OF CAVITIES, HAS DECREASED IN THE INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD, REMARKABLY OVER THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE DECADES. THE INTERESTING POINT BEEN THAT IS THAT'S HAPPENED WHETHER THERE'S FLUORIDATION OR NOT. AND IT WAS MENTIONED EARLIER THAT WHILE WE STOPPED -- LET'S SEE, HOW DID IT GO? THEY STOPPED FLUORIDATION IN ONE PLACE AND THEN ANOTHER AND THE DECAY RATE CONTINUED TONNE DECREASE OR SOMETHING. WELL, IT'S DECREASING FOR REASONS OTHER THAN FLUORIDATION. THAT SEEMS TO ME FAIRLY STRONG CONCLUSION. SO WHAT IS DOING IT? WELL, DENTISTRY IS NOT MY THING. I DON'T PRETENDS TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT DENTISTRY. BUT THE ARGUMENTS THAT THE REASON THIS HAS HAPPENED IS FOR IMPROVEMENT IN DIET, IMPROVEMENT IN ORAL CARE, DENTAL CARE. THAT COULD BE AT HOME, BRUSHING YOUR TEETH AND NOT DRINKING SUGARED DRINKS AND SO ON. AND ALSO PROFESSIONAL DENTAL CARE. AND IN THE CASE OF CANADA, THOSE THINGS ARE PROBABLY PRETTY UNIFORM ACROSS THE NATION. AND WE DON'T HAVE DID THE, OR NOT GOOD DATA, ABOUT THE INCIDENCE OF CAVITIES ACROSS CANADA. BUT I'M TOLD BUT PEOPLE, INCLUDING DENTISTS, THAT THE ORAL HEALTH IN BRITISH COLUMBIA, WHICH IS 10% OR LESS FLORIDATED, IS NO WORSE THAN IT IS, PERHAPS A LITTLE BETTER, THAN IT IS IN ALBERTA. SO I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT THOSE OTHER FACTORS. I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE IN MIND WITH THEIR AMENDMENT TO THE MOTION AND I THINK THAT'S THE WAY TO GO. >> THANK YOU. WE HEARD FROM SOME MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS TODAY THAT THOSE WITH KIDNEY DISEASE SHOULD NOT WORRY ABOUT -- NOT INCLUDING THOSE ON DIALYSIS. I IMAGINE THAT'S A FAIRLY SPECIAL CASE. BUT THOSE WITH KIDNEY DISEASE SHOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT CONSUMING FLUORIDE IN DRINKING WATER. I HAVE A VERY DEAR FRIEND WHO HAS PRETTY SIGNIFICANT KIDNEY DISEASE WHO'S BEEN ADVISED BY HIS DOCTOR OTHERWISE, AND I'M -- I FIND THAT CONFUSING. >> I WAS VERY SURPRISED TO HEAR THAT FROM A PHYSICIAN. AND THE AMERICAN KIDNEY SOCIETY, I THINK THAT'S THE NAME OF IT, UNTIL A YEAR OR SO AGO WAS A STRONG PROMOTER OF FLUORIDATION, AND THEY REVERSED THAT POSITION. THEY NO LONGER DO IT. THE REASON THEY DIDN'T IS BECAUSE PERSONS WITH KIDNEY DISEASE ARE NOR SUSCEPTIBLE TO HARM FROM FLUORIDATION. >> THANK YOU. MY FINAL QUESTION, THEN, IS THE IDEA OF A PLEBISCITE. WE HAD SIX PLEBISCITES WITH FLUORIDE. FOUR OF THEM VOTED NEGATIVELY TO INTRODUCE IT TO THE WATER. TWO OF THEM HAVE VOTED FOR IT. NOW, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I'M GETTING IS IF WE BROUGHT SOMETHING IN WITH A PLEBISCITE, SHOULD WE NOT TAKE IT OUT WITH A PLEBISCITE? WE HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THE SAME VOTE NO BROUGHT IN FLUORIDE. WE ALSO VOTED NOT TO DUE WATER METERS. YET COUNCIL, BECAUSE OF WATER USE BEING SO HIGH, REVERSED THAT DECISION WITHOUT A PLEBISCITE. OUR POLICY FOR LOCAL IMPROVEMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU WANT TO REDO YOUR SIDEWALK ON YOUR STREET, YOU NEED 66% OF THE LANDOWNERS ON THAT STREET TO SIGN A PETITION IN FAVOUR. AND THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE SOMEBODY OPTING OUT OF THAT VOTE T WOULD NEED TO BE 66% OF THOSE LANDOWNERS. SO A PLEBISCITE AT A SIMPLE MAJORITY DOESN'T REALLY MAKE SENSE TO ME WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUES. BUT THE QUESTION THEN IS SHOULD -- IS A PLEBISCITE THE APPROPRIATE WAY TO DISCUSS TOPICS OF THIS NATURE? >> NO, OF COURSE NOT. IT'S AN ABSURD WAY TO SETTLE SUCH A QUESTION. IT'S BAD ENOUGH THAT YOU CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS CAN SIT AROUND AND DECIDE WHAT I HAVE TO TAKE INTO MY BODY AND -- BUT YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE BETTER INFORMED TO GET ACCESS TO RESOURCES, TO VISORS, TO ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE, TO SIT AROUND AND REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, BUT THE GENERAL VOTER DOESN'T HAVE THE TIME, PERHAPS NOT THE ENERGY OR BACKGROUND, TO DO THAT. AND SOME OF YOU, I'M NOT -- NOT MANY, I THINK, ANYMORE, WANT TO TURN THIS DECISION OVER TO THOSE VOTERS WHO WILL INEVITABLY BE LESS INFORMED AND PERHAPS FEEL LESS RESPONSIBLE TO DECIDE WHETHER A MILLION PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE THIS UNAVOIDABLE STUFF IN THEIR WATER. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME. IF 99.9% OF THE VOTERS IN CALGARY DECIDED ON WHAT MEDICINE I SHOULD TAKE, IT WOULDN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 50% OR 2%. IT'S THE SAME THING. I DON'T GATHER MY NEIGHBOURS TOGETHER TO TELL ME WHAT MY MEDICAL CARE SHOULD BE. >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY. >> THANK YOU, Dr. BECK. SEEK NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, IT'S TIME FOR ONE MORE SPEAKER. BRUCE MACKENZIE. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I MADE A FEW NOTES HERE AND HOPEFULLY I'LL JUST TAKE LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES. THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO ALLOW ME TO DISCUSS THE FLUORIDATION. I INTEND TO KEEP MY REMARKS WITHIN THE REALM OF THE SCIENCE AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT. IN THE 1998 REPORT, FLUORIDE TEETH AND THE ATOMIC BOMB, THE SCIENCE OF FLUORIDE IN PUBLIC DRINKING WATER SYSTEMS HAS BEEN FROM DAY ONE SHODDY AT BEST. THE BASIS THAT HAVE SCIENCE IS ROOT AND HAD PROTECTED IN U.S. (INDISCERNIBLE) PROGRAM FROM LITIGATION. FLUORIDE WAS THE KEY CHEMICAL IN ATOMIC BOMB PRODUCTION. MILLIONS OF TONNES WERE ESSENTIAL FOR THE MANUFACTURER OF URANIUM AND PLUTONIUM. ONE OF THE MOST TOXIC CHEMICALS KNOWN, FLUORIDE RAPIDLY EMERGED AS THE LEADING CHEMICAL HAZARD OF THE U.S. ATOMIC PROGRAM FOR THE WORKERS AND NEARBY COMMUNITIES. THE ORIGINAL SECRET VERSION OF THE CLASSIFIED OPERATION PROGRAM F WAS WRITTEN BY PROGRAM F SCIENTISTS AND PUBLISHED IN THE JOURNAL THE AMERICAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION IN 1948. THE SCIENTISTS SHOW EVIDENCE OF ADVERSE HEALTH AFFECTS FROM FLUORIDE WAS CENSORED BY THE U.S. ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION. JUST AS AN ASIDE WITH TODAY'S PRESENTATIONS, WE TALKED ABOUT 50 YEARS. I THINK THERE'S A CORRELATION BETWEEN 1948 AND 1998 IN THAT A LOT OF DOCUMENTATION OF FLUORIDATION IN THE UNITED STATES IS CLASSIFIED AND MILITARY. THE FIRST LAWSUITS AGAINST USA BOMB PROGRAM WERE NOT OVER RADIATION BUT OVER FLUORIDE DAMAGE. HUMAN EXPOSURE TO FLUORIDE HAS MUSHROOMED SINCE WORLD WAR II. DUE TO NOT ONLY FLORIDATED WATER AND TOOTHPASTE BUT ENVIRONMENTAL POLLUTION BY MAJOR INDUSTRIES FROM ALUMINUM TO PESTICIDES, FLUORIDE IS A CRITICAL INDUSTRIAL CHEMICAL. SPENCER WELLS WRITES IN HIS BOOK "PANDORA'S C 2010" MOST OF OUR DIET IS BASED ON WHEAT, RICE, CATTLE, POTATOES, ANY OTHER NON-AQUATIC ANIMAL, AND PLANT PRODUCTS, HUMANS CONSUME COMES FROM DOMESTICATED SPECIES. WESTERN CIVILIZATION IN PARTICULAR NOT ONLY APPLIES TOPICAL FLUORIDE TO TEETH BUT INGESTS SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF FLUORIDE IN OUR FOOD SUPPLY. HE WRITES, IT TAKES 1,000 GALLONS OF WATER TO PRODUCE A POUND OF BEEF. MORE THAN 500 GALLONS TO PRODUCE A POUND OF RICE. GEORGE GRACEIER WRITES IN HIS PAPER "NOR I'D AND PHOSPHATE CONNECTION" EPA CHEMIST KEVIN BIHIK WORKED OUT THE SOLUTION TO A MONUMENTAL POLLUTION PROBLEM. BECAUSE RECOVERED PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER (INDISCERNIBLE) CONCLUDED THAT THE CONCENTRATED SCRUBBER LIQUOR COULD BE A PERFECT WATER FLUORIDATION LIQUID AND WAS ALSO INEXPENSIVE. FOR THE PHOSPHATE INDUSTRY, SHORTAGE OF SODIUM FLUORIDE WAS A KEY TO TURNING RED INK INTO BLACK AND AN ENVIRONMENT THE LIABILITY -- SORRY, AN ENVIRONMENTAL LIABILITY INTO A PERCEIVED ASSET. WITH THE HELP OF THE EPA, FLUORO CYCLIC ACID WAS TRANSPORTED FROM A CONCENTRATED TOXIC WASTE INTO A PROVEN CAVITY FIGHTER. ONE WOULD ASSUME THAT THE -- YOUR QUESTIONS OF Dr. BECK AND THE STATEMENT THAT SOME TYPE OF NATURAL FLUORIDE IS ADDED, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. ONLY CALCIUM FLUORIDE OCCURS NATURALLY IN WATER AND HAS NEVER BEEN USED FOR FLUORIDATION. THE CHEMICALS USED TO -- THE CHEMICALS USED TO FLORIDATE 90% OF OUR PUBLIC DRINKING WATER ARE INDUSTRIAL GRADE HAZARDOUS WASTE CAPTURED IN THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL SCRUBBER SYSTEMS OF THE PHOSPHATE UTILIZER INDUSTRY. THESE WASTES CONTAIN A NUMBER OF TOXIC CONTAMINANTS INCLUDING LEAD, ARSENIC, CADMIUM, AND EVEN RADIOACTIVE ISOTOPES. MICHAEL CONET IN MAY 2003 WRITES IN HIS PAPER THE PHOSPHATE INDUSTRY -- PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER INDUSTRY AND ENVIRONMENTAL OVERVIEW AND THIS IS PERHAPS HOPEFULLY I'M BACK DOCTORING BECK UP INTO A QUESTION. IT IS QUITE REMARKABLE FROM THE EPA THAT DESPITE 50 YEARS OF WATER FLORDAIGS THE E -- FLUORIDATION THE EPA HAS NO CHRONIC HEALTH STUDIES AND CYCLICAL FLORIDES. ALL SAFETY STUDIES ON FLUORIDE TO DATE HAVE BEEN CONDUCTING USING PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE SODIUM FLUORIDE, NOT INDUSTRIAL GRADE SILICAL FLORIDES. WE LEARNED ABOUT DIRTY POLITICS INCLUDING IN THE SCIENCE AND SELLING OF FLUORIDATION TO A TRUSTING PUBLIC. I MIGHT ADD THE DIRTY BUSINESS. THANK YOU. >> RIGHT ON TIME, MANY MACKENZIE. QUESTIONS? ALDERMAN FARRELL. >> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY, MR. MACKENZIE. YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY READ A LOT ABOUT THIS TOPIC. WHAT GENERATED THE INTEREST? >> MY BACKGROUND IS MANAGEMENT AND I SPECIALIZE IN ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH AND SAFETY FOR THE COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE INDUSTRY. I'VE HAD TO REALLY LOOK AT THE ROOT OF THE SCIENCE'S STUDY SO I CAN MAKE INTELLIGENT DECISIONS. I FIND A LOT OF INFORMATION -- I APOLOGIZE FROM THIS COMMENT BUT WITH ALL DUE RESPECT OF ALL THE MEDICAL EXPERTISE, I'M QUITE DISCOURAGED IN WHAT I'VE HEARD TODAY. I CAN FIND PROBABLY -- IF YOU WANT TO PAY ME MY CONSULTING FEE, I CAN FIND AS MANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS TO DISCREDIT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING AS Dr. BECK HAS POINTED OUT. BUT MY REAL PERSONAL INTEREST IS I WAS GIVEN THE STUDY THAT I QUOTED REGARDING ATOMIC ENERGY IN THE EARLY 2000 AND FROM A VERY CREDIBLE PH.D. I'VE DONE A BIT OF WORK ON THAT AND TO THE DATE I DON'T USE FLUORIDE WATER WHICH IS A LIE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE I'M GOING TO HAVE A HERNIA OPERATION, I CAN'T CARRY THE BOTTLES OF WATER SO I HAVE TO USE CITY WATER UNTIL MY SURGERY MARCH 1st THEN I'LL GO BACK AND CARRY THE BOTTLES OF WATER. THE OTHER THING IS I DISCUSSED MYDENTIST, AND I DON'T USE TOPICAL FLUORIDE FROM MYDENTIST. MY BIGGEST PROBLEM IS ARGUING WITH HEALTH PROFESSIONALS BEING THE PEOPLE THAT CLEAN AND DO MY TEETH PRIOR TO HIM LOOKING AT IT SO TO ME IT'S MEDICATED -- ALL THE THINGS WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT ARE NEGATIVE ABOUT FLUORIDE. THAT'S MY INTEREST. I DON'T WANT SOMEONE TELLING ME WHAT TO DO. I THINK THE MOST EMOTIONAL THING THAT I CAN SAY IS THAT HAVING BEEN A HEALTH CARE ADMINISTRATOR AND HAVING BEEN TERMINATED IN HEALTH CARE AND FOUGHT A WRONGFUL DISMISSAL SUIT IN WHICH THE ADMINISTRATOR THAT TERMINATED ME WAS CHARGED BY THE R.C.M.P. FOR 13 COUNTS OF FRAUD DOESN'T MEAN, AS Dr. BECK SAYS, YOU GOT TO WHITE COAT, YOU'RE AN EXPERT. I THINK YOU NEED TO REALLY LOOK AT IS I'VE TRIED TO INDICATE HERE THE ROOT OF THE SCIENCE. WHERE DID THE SCIENCE COME FROM, WAS IT TRANSPARENT, WHO PAID FOR IT. AND THERE'S LOTS OF STUFF OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT PAID FOR BY BEING INDUSTRY -- BIG INDUSTRY OR BIG GOVERNMENT THAT DISPUTE THE CLAIMS BEING MADE, THAT ARE PRO-FLUORIDE. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, Mr. MACKENZIE. >>> MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE, IS EVERYBODY HERE FOLLOWING SUPPER? WE HAVE ABOUT 12 MORE WHICH WILL TAKE US TO ABOUT 9:30. BASED ON WHAT WE'VE DONE TODAY. THAT'S FINE. WE ARE RECESSED TILL 7:05. THE CAPTIONS OF THIS MEETING IS PROVIDED AS A COMMUNICATION ACCESSIBILITY MEASURE AND IS NOT INTENDED AS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS. IF INACCURACIES OCCUR, IT MAY BE DUE TO HUMAN ERROR, Permanently lost this transcript portion: firewire port error on SHAW cable box. -Gord THEN OF COURSE THE RECOMMENDS WOULD HAVE TO COME BACK TO MEMBERS OF COUNCIL FOR A DECISION. >> I CAN'T REMEMBER THE FULL DETAILS OF THE PREVIOUS PANEL AND IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE THAT Dr. MUSTO WOULD RECALL OR Dr. FREEZEN CAN RECALL MORE THAN I CAN BUT THE PROCESS FOR DOING IT AS I RECALL ADMINISTRATION WAS DIRECTED TO PUT TOGETHER A PANEL, AND WE SOUGHT OUT EXPERTS WITH DIFFERENT SKILL SETS AND ASSEMBLED THAT PANEL, AND THEY WENT AWAY AND DID A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF WORK. I RECALL IT TOOK A LOT LONGER THAN IS BEING SUGGESTED BY THE LETTER THAT WAS SENT TO US FROM THE UNIVERSITY. I THINK MY SENSE IS THAT THE PROPOSAL BY THE UNIVERSITY THAT CAME INTO THE MAYOR RECENTLY IS A MUCH QUICKER REVIEW. IT WILL ASSEMBLE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE AND TRY TO, YOU KNOW, SUMMARIZE, GIVE A SYNOPSIS WHAT'S OUT THERE, CURRENT LITERATURE REVIEW IF YOU WILL. MY REX OF -- RECOLLECTION OF THE PANEL THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER WAS SORT OF A MUCH LONGER PROCESS. AND IT -- WITH MORE -- AS I RECALL, WHEN THEY SUBMITTED THEIR DOCUMENT, I MEAN THERE WAS PAGES AND PAGES AND PAGES OF REFERENCE MATERIAL THAT THEY HAD LOOKED INTO. SO THEY HAD LOOKED INTO INDIVIDUAL PIECES OF RESEARCH AS OPPOSED TO REVIEWING SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS I THINK. SO MY SENSE IS THAT THIS IS -- THIS PROPOSAL IS A QUICKER, LESS TIME CONSUMING PROPOSAL. AND SO -- >> MAYBE NOT AS THOROUGH. THE CONCERN WE HEARD ABOUT SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS IS THAT THEY ARE OFTEN REVIEWS OF REVIEWS. I DON'T KNOW. WHAT ABOUT THE EUROPEAN -- IT SEEMS TO BE CIRCULATED MORE AROUND AN ETHICAL QUESTION IN EUROPE. AND IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HEAR FROM SOME OF THE EUROPEAN SIDES AND EVEN POLITICIANS WHO MADE THESE TYPES OF DECISIONS. >> WELL, I MEAN JUST TO BE CLEAR, WHEN THE ISSUE CAME UP THE LAST TIME, IT WAS VERY CLEARLY A REVIEW THAT WAS DONE BY THE MEDICAL AND DENTAL COMMUNITY AND THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. IT WASN'T ANYTHING THAT WAS DONE BY THE WATERWORKS DEPARTMENT OR THE WATER INDUSTRY. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE PROFESS TO HAVE ANY EXPERTISE IN AT ALL FROM THE HEALTH RELATED ASPECTS OF FLUORIDATION. FIRST, IN HOW TO APPLY THE PROCESS AND DESIGN IT AND RUN IT AND OPERATE IT. BUT IN TERM OF THE ACTUAL BENEFITS OR THE MEDICAL BENEFITS, DENTAL BENEFITS OR OTHERWISE, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE ARE ABLE TO COMMENT ON. SO, AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER GOING TO EUROPE OR ANYWHERE ELSE, AUSTRALIA OR NEW ZEALAND FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF A HEALTH BENEFITS REVIEW WOULD BE A GOOD THING OR NOT. WE COULD TELL YOU OPERATIONALLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND WHAT THE PLANTS ARE DOING AND WHAT THEY ARE NOT DOING AND SO ON, BUT I CAN'T REALLY COMMENT ON THE HEALTH SIDE OF IT. >> OKAY. MAYBE WE SHOULD GET AN OPINION FROM Mr. INLOW ABOUT THE LEGALITIES OF THE COUNCIL'S DECISION. YOU HAVE BEEN HERE ALL DAY. WE THOUGHT WE WOULD ASK YOU AT LEAST ONE QUESTION TO JUSTIFY THE TIME COMMITMENT. >> YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THAT BUT ... >> Mr. INLOW, QUESTION OF IF THE MOTION THAT'S BEFORE US PASSES BY COUNCIL, THEN WHAT WOULD BE THE NEXT STEPS? AS FAR AS THE CITY IS CONCERNED? AND THE LEGAL OBLIGATIONS? >> WELL, THERE ARE SEVERAL STEPS, AND CERTAINLY Mr. PRITCHARD CAN SPEAK TO SOME OF THEM, BECAUSE THEY INVOLVE HAVING TO AMEND -- IF COUNCIL SIMPLY MAKES THE DECISION AND SAYS WE ARE NO LONGER GOING TO FLUORIDE, THEN THERE ARE SOME PROCEDURES THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN WITH THE OPERATING LICENSE FROM ALBERTA ENVIRONMENT. I'M NOT SURE IF THAT'S THE KIND OF LEGAL ISSUE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OR WHETHER YOU ARE REFERRING TO SOMETHING ELSE. >> NO. THAT WOULD BE THE QUESTION. >> YEAH. I MEAN, IT IS IN SOME RESPECTS A PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE, BUT ODDLY COUNCIL ISN'T REALLY THE PUBLIC HEALTH AUTHORITY. IT REALLY COMES TO COUNCIL BECAUSE WE ARE THE OPERATOR OF THE WATER SYSTEM. AND THIS DEBATE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES AND DECADES AS TO WHETHER OVERALL THERE IS A BENEFIT OF CARRYING THIS TO THE PUBLIC THROUGH THE WATER SYSTEM AND WATER SYSTEM CLEARLY HAS LIMITATIONS IN THE SENSE THAT IN TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY WE CAN REALLY ONLY DELIVER ONE KIND OF WATER. IT'S NOT AS IF WE GOT SIX PIPES COMING INTO EVERY HOUSEHOLD SAYING, WELL, YOU CAN PICK THESE OPTIONS. IT'S REALLY A PUBLIC INTEREST ISSUE FOR COUNCIL TO SAY HAVING LISTENED TO THE SCIENCE, IN SOME RESPECTS MAYBE THE QUASI SCIENCE OF WHAT'S BEING SAID, WHAT IS IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST? AND IN TERMS OF WHETHER IT SHOULD BE IN OR OUT, AND I WANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THAT BECAUSE WE ARE NOT DEFLORNATURING THE WATER. WE ARE SIMPLY TALKING ABOUT NO LONGER ADDING ADDITIONAL FLUORIDE TO THE WATER, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME THING. AND SO I THINK IT'S JUST A MATTER OF COUNCIL MAKING A DECISION BASED ON THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THE EVIDENCE AND THE SCIENCE, AND WHAT'S THE BENEFIT HERE VERSUS WHAT'S THE PERCEPTION OF A DETRIMENT THERE, AND OVERALL, IN THE BALANCE OF THINGS, WHAT'S OVERALL IN THE BEST PUBLIC INTEREST? >> OKAY. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. WELL, COMMITTEE, I THINK I WILL PUT FORWARD THE MOTION THAT WAS BROUGHT TO COUNCIL AND ANY NUMBER OF THINGS COULD HAPPEN AT COUNCIL. WE COULD MAKE A DECISION TO REFER THIS MOTION TO A BODY OF EXPERTS FOR THEIR OPINION, OR WE COULD PASS IT, OR IT COULD FAIL AND WE COULD CONTINUE WITH THE STATUS QUO OR WE COULD MAKE A DECISION TO GO WITH A PLEBISCITE. I THINK IT HAS BEEN A VERY HEALTHY DISCUSSION. AND I DON'T THINK I'M SURPRISED BY ANY OF IT. WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DISCUSSION AND CARE DEEPLY ABOUT THEIR POINT OF VIEW, AND THE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS THAT SPOKE FEEL VERY PASSIONATELY THAT THEY ARE PROVIDING A PUBLIC HEALTH BENEFIT, WHILE THERE ARE MANY, MANY PEOPLE, MANY CALGARIANS WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR WATER SUPPLY AND A FEAR WHETHER IT IS BASED IN REALITY OR NOT, THE -- IT CONCERNS ME DEEPLY THAT WE HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THEIR WATER SUPPLY. THAT IN ITSELF I THINK IS SOMETHING WE CANNOT IGNORE. ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS POSSIBILITY OF ALTERNATIVES. AND I DON'T THINK WE HAVE LOOKED AT THEM ENOUGH AS A SOCIETY. SO I'M GOING TO PUT THIS MOTION FORWARD AND THEN WE'LL SEE WHAT COMMITTEE DOES. AND I WANT TO URGE COMMITTEE TO VOTE FOR THE SECOND PORTION OF THE MOTION. BECAUSE I DO THINK WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AS A MUNICIPALITY, ALTHOUGH SOME MAY ARGUE THAT'S NOT THE CASE, TO LOOK AFTER THE HEALTH OF OUR CITIZENS, THE MOST COMPELLING ARGUMENT TO ME, OF COURSE, IS THE ISSUE OF CHILDREN IN POVERTY SITUATIONS. BUT I BELIEVE THAT SOME OF THE RESPONSES TOWARD POVERTY AND THE ARGUMENTS FOR FLUORIDE ARE VERY SIMPLISTIC, THAT WE THINK WE ARE DONE, AND WE ARE NOT. OF COURSE WE ARE NOT. SO I THINK PERHAPS THIS WOULD BE A WAY TO ADDRESS THAT MORAL CONCERN. SO I WOULD URGE MEMBERS OF COMMITTEE TO SUPPORT THAT. THANK YOU. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD. >> IT'S GETTING LATE I THINK. THAT'S MY NEW EXCUSE ANYWAY. I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO REFER THIS TO THE EXPERT PANEL THAT'S SUGGESTED IN THE LETTER FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY FACULTY OF MEDICINE, AND I WOULD LIKE TO DO THIS FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. THEY HAVE GOT A NEW RESEARCH CENTRE THAT THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT IN THIS LETTER, AND THEY WANT TO CRITICALLY REVIEW THE MOST UP TO DATE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE, AND PROVIDE CLEAR EVIDENCE-BASED ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ABOUT RISKS AND BENEFITS. AND IT'S THAT CLEAR EVIDENCE-BASED ANSWERS THAT I'M LOOKING FOR. WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF INFORMATION PRESENTED TO US. AND A LOT OF RESEARCH REFERRED TO. BUT HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT IS SUBSTANTIVE RESEARCH THAT'S BEEN PRESENTED TO US? AND WHAT IS LESS RIGOROUS? ON EITHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT. BECAUSE WE ARE NOT PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS. AND I WORRY ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ -- I HAVE NOT READ THE RESEARCH MYSELF, AND I'M RELYING ON OTHERS TO INFORM ME ABOUT THE OUTCOMES, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY AGREEMENT, AND SO IN MY OPINION, I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT REFERRING IT TO THE EXPERTS. I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE COMPOSITION OF THIS PANEL. I THINK WE NEED PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS ON IT, MEDICAL AND DENTAL, PERHAPS SOME PEOPLE WITH -- I THINK ALDERMAN FARRELL HAS TALKED ABOUT THE EUROPEAN EXPERIENCE, PERHAPS THERE IS SOME DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, DIFFERENT WAYS OF SEEING THE WORLD, AND PERHAPS SOME OF THE THINGS THAT Dr. BECK HAS REFERRED TO NEED TO BE EXAMINED SO WE CAN GET THE EVIDENCE, WHEN THERE IS CLAIMS MADE ABOUT THIS OR CLAIMS MADE ABOUT THAT, THAT WE ACTUALLY CAN SEE WHO IS SAYING THIS AND WHAT ARE THEY BASING IT ON? HOW SUBSTANTIVE IS IT? HOW BIG IS THE RISK? AND THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION THAT WE ARE BEING ASKED TO MAKE. SO I ALSO ADD THAT THE LAST PANEL, THE LAST TIME WE REFERRED THIS TO A PANEL, THAT PANEL MADE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CHANGE, AND I DON'T THINK THAT IT'S A FOREGONE CONCLUSION THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR CHANGE. I THINK IF WE SELECT THE PANEL CAREFULLY THAT WE GET CREDIBLE PEOPLE, THAT WE WILL IN FACT BE ABLE TO CREATE A GROUP OF PEOPLE, BRING TOGETHER A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT CAN INDEPENDENTLY LOOK AT ALL THE RESEARCH OUT THERE AND GIVE US SOME INFORMATION TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOUR MOTION. CITY CLERK JUST INFORMED ME THAT WE CAN'T REFER IT TO A PANEL BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A PANEL TO REFER IT TO. SO WHAT WE WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO DO IS REFER TO THE MAYOR'S LETTER AND ASK THE MAYOR TO GET A HOLD OF THE PROPONENTS TO FORM THE COMMITTEE. RATHER THAN THE WAY YOU SAID IT. BECAUSE WE CAN'T REFER TO A PANEL THAT DOESN'T EXIST. SO IT WOULD BE IN REFERENCE TO THE MAYOR'S LETTER AND LET THE MAYOR DO THAT AND REPORT BACK TO COUNCIL, RATHER THAN TO COMMITTEE. >> I THINK THAT'S ALL GOOD. I WOULD LIKE THE COMMITTEE OR COUNCIL TO HAVE INPUT ON THE PANEL MEMBERS. >> SO IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO COUNCIL. >> WELL, IS THAT -- >> IT HAS GOT TO GO TO COUNCIL ANYWAY FOR THE REFERRAL SUPPORT. >> OB. >> OKAY. >> ALDERMAN STEPHENSON. >> I'M READY TO DEBATE THE MAIN MOTION. I WILL SPEAK TO IS THIS A REFERRAL MOTION WE ARE DEALING WITH THEN? >> YES, IT IS. IT IS NOT THE WAY IT WAS ORIGINALLY -- >> I WON'T SUPPORT THE REFERRAL MOTION. I THINK THAT THAT DECISION HAS TO BE DONE, SHOULD BE DONE BY COUNCIL. SO I THINK WE SHOULD BE LEAVING THAT UNTIL WE GET TO COUNCIL. WE'LL SEND THIS TO COUNCIL AND AT THAT POINT IF THEY WANT TO REFER IT, THEY CAN. BUT I WON'T SUPPORT IT AT THIS POINT. >> OKAY. ANY OTHER DISCUSSION? SEEING NONE ON THE REFERRAL TO COUNCIL TO APPOINT A PANEL, ARE YOU AGREED? OPPOSED? CALL THE ROLL. >> ON THE REFERRAL ALDERMAN DEMONG. >> NO. >> ALDERMAN FARRELL? >> NO. >> ALDERMAN MacLEOD? >> YES. >> ALDERMAN STEVENSON. >> NO. >>> CHAIR JONES? >> YES. >> THAT'S LOSS. >> ON THE MAIN MOTION, ALDERMAN STEVENSON. >> THANK YOU. I WILL, OF COURSE, NOT SUPPORT THE MOVEMENT TO COMMITTEE WHEN IT GOES TO COUNCIL EITHER. THE REASON IS BECAUSE I BELIEVE WE HAVE ALL THE RESEARCH THAT WE NEED AND HAVE HAD FOR SOME TIME. I GOT TO SAY THAT I HAVE BEEN OPPOSED TO FLUORIDE FOR 30 YEARS, BUT I KEEP LISTENING, THINKING SOMEONE IS GOING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO CAUSE ME TO RECONSIDER MY POSITION ON IT. AND I HAVE LISTENED ALL DAY TODAY AND HEARD NOTHING THAT WOULD CHANGE MY MIND ON IT TO THIS POINT. I WILL LISTEN TO THE DEBATE HERE AND IN COUNCIL, AND THEN I WILL MAKE MY FINAL DECISION ON HOW I VOTE. BUT I WILL NOT SUPPORT A PLEBISCITE EITHER BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE PLEBISCITE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS. NOW, I'M GETTING A LOT OF E-MAILS AND I'M SURE ALL OF YOU ARE, LETTERS, AND SO ON, AND THEY ARE COMING IN FOUR TO ONE AGAINST FLUORIDIZATION, FOUR TO ONE IN FAVOUR OF US REMOVING IT. IN THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS THAT I HAVE OPPOSED FLUORIDATION I HAD A LOT OF RIDICULE AND I CAN'T IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF RIDICULE THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THIS THAT ARE IN POSITIONS OF MEDICAL DOCTORS OR DENTISTS AND THE AMOUNT OF PEER PRESSURE THAT THEY ARE GETTING. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY SURPRISES -- IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME BUT IT SURPRISES ME THAT IT ISN'T RECOGNIZED MORE IS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE CHANGED THEIR POSITION. THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WERE IN FAVOUR OF IT, WERE ADVOCATES OF IT THAT ARE NOW AGAINST IT, AND I HAVE NOT TO THIS POINT COME ACROSS ANYONE THAT'S GONE THE OTHER WAY. IT SEEMS WHEN PEOPLE DO ENOUGH STUDY ON IT, THEY REALIZE THAT IT'S THE WRONG THING TO DO. AND THE REASON I WOULDN'T SUPPORT A PLEBISCITE IS BECAUSE I DON'T THINK, EVEN IF IT'S 53%, AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK THE LAST VOTE WAS, 53% OF 30% WHO ACTUALLY COME OUT TO VOTE MAKE A DECISION ON MEDICATING 100%, AND I STRONGLY AGREE WITH -- DISAGREE WITH THAT, EVEN IF IT WAS 50, 60% OF THE TOTAL POPULATION. I DON'T AGREE THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO MEDICATE THE REST. EVEN IN THE CASES AS ALDERMAN FARRELL POINTED OUT, IN THE CASE OF OUR LOCAL IMPROVEMENT BYLAWS, WE HAVE 66% IS THE REQUIREMENT FOR PAVING AN ALLEY. AND THAT'S 66% OF THE PEOPLE WHO OWN PROPERTY. NOT THE ONES THAT HAVE THE INTEREST TO COME OUT AND VOTE. IT'S 66% OF EVERYBODY WHO OWNS WHO HAS TO SAY YES TO THAT, SIGN THEIR NAME, OR ELSE WE CAN'T GO AHEAD AND DO IT. AND HERE WE GO AND SAY WE CAN DO SOMETHING AS SIGNIFICANT AS THIS WITH SUCH A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE PEOPLE MAKING THE DECISION FOR THE REST OF US. NOW I KNOW THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE DISMISS CLAIMS OF HARM AND WE HEARD HERE TODAY THAT PROFESSIONALS, PEOPLE WHO I RESPECT A GREAT DEAL HAVE SAID THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF HARM BUT HOW CAN WE DISMISS ALL OF THE CLAIMS ABOUT HARM WHEN WE HAVE SEEN POSITIONS CHANGE, LIKE, FOR INSTANCE, THE CHANGE NOW IN THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS IS THAT THEY SAY INFANTS CANNOT BE GIVEN FLUORIDE IN THEIR WATER. CHILDREN, THEY ARE NOW SAYING YOUNGER CHILDREN, EVEN IF IT'S NOT AN INFANT, THEY SHOULDN'T BE HAVING IT BECAUSE THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF HARM. WE HAVE SEEN THEM REDUCE THE LEVELS OF THE AMOUNT OF FLUORIDE IN THE WATER. THE REASON THEY ARE DOING THOSE IS BECAUSE OF EVIDENCE OF HARM OR POTENTIAL HARM. SO -- EVERYONE THE DOCTORS THAT WE HEAR, THEY DON'T DISPUTE THAT THE DOSAGE CAN'T BE CONTROLLED. NOBODY DISPUTES THAT. THERE IS FLUORIDE IN FOOD, IN BEVERAGE AND TOOTHPASTE, AND IN OUR WATER, AND I HEARD IT SAID THAT THERE IS A DANGER -- LESS DANGER OF PEOPLE NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL IT IF WE LEAVE IT IN THERE. I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT. IT JUST MEANS THAT MORE PEOPLE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL NOT TO GET TOO MUCH WHEN WE ARE PUTTING THAT MUCH IN THE WATER. SO THERE IS A CONCERN. AND IF WE ARE GOING TO ERR IS NEEDS TO BE ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION. NOBODY HAS COME UP WITH ANYTHING, PROOF THAT THERE IS A BENEFIT TO CALGARIANS. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS. WE KEEP ASKING FOR IT BUT IT IS NOT THERE. AND THERE IS NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT SOME CALGARIANS ARE BEING HARMED BY IT. (PLEASE STAND BY)

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