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Olin shivers dissertation advice for newlyweds internet of things conference 2018 college essay examples failure to communicate welcome to the Sewing Report I'm Jennifer Moore helping you discover your love of sewing we have a special edition we're doing another sewing chat and with me right now are Brenda Ratliff and Jason Elliott they are the owners and also they're a real-life couple they run Pink Castle Fabrics in Michigan and some back story here I've actually been friends with them for quite a while Brenda I met through Sara Lawson if so sweetness and these two have just shared so much insight and really interesting things about the sewing industry so I thought they would be fascinating to have on so thank you guys for being here right now yeah thanks for having us so how are things going at the shop today busy this is as usual yeah working on a new website so this is actually our seven-year anniversary this month of our business so we're gonna do a website refresh a lot of things are different now the images in seven years it doesn't seem like a long time but online things change pretty quickly so there's a lot of cool stuff that you can now do with our website that we couldn't do even just a few years ago so about time to look at that again I am really excited to see what you guys have and congratulations on making it seven years that is a really big accomplishment especially for this industry a lot of businesses even fabric shops I used to follow like some of them aren't even in business now so can you guys walk us to you can you guys kind of walk us through a little bit about how pink castle fabrics came to be um well basically I saw and when I had a baby I got a chance to stay at home and be a stay-at-home mom for a little while and I just got out of the business incubator and I was starting to sew and didn't really it really wasn't a great place to find the fabric that I was looking for you know you go online to see what people are doing on the blog things like that you would go to your local quilt shop or I would to my little truck they didn't really have that kind of thing it was mostly boutiques or you know Civil War reproductions and I nothing again fetish not my style so I started calling manufacturers and figuring out where I can find them and then they thought that I wanted a wholesale account so tired you know this business knowledge like looking into a spreadsheet think you're get out I thought I'd do something on a really small scale like very niche um you know so I could keep it small and I wouldn't have to have a lot of employees and it kind of just moved from there so and we're still a small business you know when you think about some of the other bigger online shops they have hundreds of employees if you get a set so it's it's not like you know hundreds of people are doing things here we don't have really that big of an operation but it's big enough the same person that does our payroll does customer service emails he manages the retailing or the online order employees and he answers all phone calls so there's a lot of hats right any small and I understand you both wear a lot of hats in this business can you explain to folks watching you know how you guys have kind of decided on your roles and how that plays out in your day-to-day operations it's kind of funny because I actually have a business background but I don't do the business ish portion of it and I have an art background and I don't do great um I do all of the buying for the shop we head up the marketing for the shop that kind of thing like social media and things like that and then Jason does like the web design and her dress for billing and paying the bills like he gets the people and the products in the store and I mean all this stuff happened I was picturing like she's the racecar driver and I'm the cat right all right what's it like working with your with your spouse every day I have never done that but you guys have done it successfully for quite a long time what's what's the secret there I think you just get used to it we don't find as much as we did in the begin used to it now the division of labor all right you know there's still always like you know there's only two of us so if I have an opinion in he has an opinion there's no tiebreaker so that's where it kind of gets hard because I'm pretty stubborn and he's pretty stubborn so sometimes one man asked did you use did you start out online and then at your physical store later yeah we did we did the online I think for what three or three years with no with no online but people were showing up you know you have your address on things so at first we did everything out in the house and people would show up to my house oh my gosh we'd get phone calls at like 3:00 in the afternoon of Han I'm outside of your address but it looks like that house really gets it done oil from the public but then people would come in and chop through my basement yeah it's really hard you know it doesn't make sense to add extra overhead if you don't need it so us staying in the house for as long as we did was a smart decision because and when we were able to take money that we saved in rent and put it back into product to build our inventory it's not for everyone I know in this industry it seems like everybody feels like they have to have a business around their sewing and it's okay you can just be a customer you know it's it's not and that's why you see a lot of the shops going in and out of business because you know it looks it looks easy because when we look on social media everything's you know it's all touched up you know we only take a picture of the part of the desk that doesn't have you know it isn't a live show about it one time where you talked about the difference between what you see on you know Instagram and Pinterest actually is going out in the world yeah that kind of drives me a little bit crazy it seems like every sewing blogger and every person with the sewing Instagram feels this pressure to just make everything look super perfect all the time I'm like that is not how it really is all right you know and and I do want to ask so what kind of products do you sell now I know you sell fabric you sell sewing machines and you also sell like sewing notions that's pretty much it um so fabric sewing machines Janome sewing machines and some notions we don't carry as many notions as some other shops do but you know we're competing with Amazon and Joanne's some of the bigger places online so it's easier for us to just carry the basics things like that then we can focus on fabric you know some of the other things like rulers that type of thing they don't shift very well so unless you're carrying a lot of them for your retail store which most people go to the big-box stores then they don't make sense to curiam and you have to carry every single size it's a lot of work for having to sit on the shelf yeah fabric well in Brenda I know you have a huge love for is it is a Japanese fabric I know you've mentioned that before so you really have but you really are always looking out for stuff like that aren't you yeah trying to find things that are interesting or different but I would still actually use it in a quilt you know like there's a lot of fabric out there I just hadn't yesterday and you know I see hundreds and hundreds of fabric in an hour period and then I have hid what are you gonna like as a customer six months from now so it's it's a hard job to be able to to do that and sometimes there's stuff that I like it's a little bit too out there or you know if people don't always like the same things I do most of the time I think right but sometimes I'm a little off the mark but you I think that's one of the confusing things is you have to you have to guess a lot of that better I mean it's an educated guess sure we have to look at and decide what's going to be popular in puts you know what do I like versus one of my customers like not always what I think the unfortunate thing is with waters and the way everything is now is we hear and see online the most popular things it doesn't always mean it's the best fabric out there and sometimes there's really cool hidden gem fabrics out there and I feel like in the past bloggers blogged more about like the imperfections or just like the random things that they found you know and and now it's more of like if this is my business type thing and it's kind of unfortunate because I think that really the stuff that doesn't stand out anymore is so great you know I'm trying to explain it like you're used to me people that would use the Japanese fabrics and it seems like now those bloggers have big followings got scooped up by a fabric nanny and now they've got their own fad now there's the other yeah and to me as a as a consumer that that kind of makes you think they have a bet you know obviously they have a personal interest in whatever they're selling but it also almost takes down their credibility a little bit if you feel like they're always selling you something but like for example here a blogger somebody would send you a free fabric like that a whole fat quarter bundle and then you feel the need to use it in that package you know and that doesn't it's a very sterile quilt at that point and I don't mean that to be a bad thing because but it's just a different look then like if you were to take you know pieces from multiple collection stuff that's in stock stuff that's not in stock and mix it all up in a quilt it gives you like a more like vintage quilt but I mean it doesn't have to be vintage colors or vibe but like that real homey scrap quilt like having the colors not exactly match does give a different element than if it were all this same color and just different prints and I think that that's unfortunate because we've got bloggers now who are trying to do this as a living and they're just using that one fabric bundle you know it's not being that's really true and you kind of think to yourself - if I use a lot of other fabric designers in my quilt you know will this person repost you know will this account repost it you know right like if I only use a certain type of fabric then they're more likely to repost it on their account and if you know so I mean there's so many things that go into that frame of thinking but you're right though it it does seem like it's discouraging people from exploring more with the fabric curation and you know do it a little more things out of the box yeah like they're just good knots yeah it's a shame because there's so much stuff out there and so you want to use everything with them you know you're you're kind of always trying to choose between do I use all the different collections because they look nice together or do I want so-and-so to you know it'll get shown better by one person or another because features are fabric it creatively doesn't make any sense but as a business how that comes into play but it's weird because the customer and you know your viewers aren't gonna look at that and go all I like that because it only features this brand of fabric they don't they don't care they just like a pretty quilt and they think it's kind of unfortunate because in the past there were people using like really cool Japanese fabrics that there are out there we all carry as many as dude we did even two years ago because the sales have just slowed and it's not because the fabric is not greed it's because there's nobody out there showing you what it is and the industry as a whole has a lot right now um seven years ago when we started with very few modern collections so your focus was really an only ten twelve collections that will come out in the year and then the other things that you would get to go with it you know and now it seems like every week there's a new clutch you know way that the customers can keep up with that as as as fabric and quilt shop owners do you how do you feel like there's too much fabric right now absolutely and I think and even some of the manufacturers are thinking that in their head they're just not really doing anything about it at this point you know the free spirit closing down this week is actually probably going to help the industry because there's going to be less fabric out there and all of the good designers are gonna find if culture I mean it's sad that a lot of people lost their job so suddenly you know um but I think the cream of the crop will get picked up and different things will be happening in the industry this year you know you you had modern such a small piece of the pie and it's still just a small piece of the pie but then when manufacturers realized oh I can make money in this segment okay then let's just you know grab bloggers and just throw lines out there and you see this huge influx of books that happen in books too you know you see like everybody could get a book deal and and I think it's an interesting thing that everybody wanted a book you know like I want to write a sewing or quilting book I don't know it just what the tutorials or the you know the instructions in it like that doesn't want to work yeah it doesn't really interest me it's a lot of work and I think that misnomer is and one of the things about this industry nobody really talks about how much money that you make writing the book you're not going to make a living writing a book like it's funny we just watched we have an eight-year-old son as you know and she just watched Back to the Future for the first time this last week one of the big plot points in the end of the first Back to the Future was the debt becomes an author which everybody is taking you know you take that to me oh he's successful now and it's that I mean that's something that I would think but you know knowing what a lot of authors make it's not you're not gonna retire on them no not really insane designer you know it's a it's a cool thing like I can say I'm a fabric designer because I'm gonna sell bitch but um it's definitely not the thing that pays my mortgage I feel like the sewing industry especially for people like blockers and whatnot it's definitely kind of like this gig economy where you don't just make your living from one big thing you kind of have to piece together a living from quite a few different things and so so obviously yeah the free spirit moved definitely kind of rocked our world this week this whole notion of these lines there are so many collections out there you like can't even keep track of them but the limited prints it kind of gives you this feeling of scarcity like oh if I don't buy this line you know they're gonna stop printing it and then I might never get it I think that Duff definitely Spurs us to buy more fabric than we normally would and then there's also the fact outside of the sewing world no one knows like I feel like from a marketing perspective outside of the soy bean quilting world no one knows what any of these desires or manufacturers are in you know and I was talking about this during the last live show is that the you know like I feel like these fabric manufacturers and even sewing companies are marketing to people who already sell but not a lot being done to market to people who don't sew well what do you guys think about that sort of thing I think that's true there's less people sewing this year than there were in the past few years the whole industry has seen a shrink in people not I mean now all of it is you know you're gonna have some attrition you're gonna have some people that have decided to move on another hobby they have bought enough stash that they never need to buy another piece of salmon life because they were buying what was scarce I think one of the big one of the hardest things about the sewing industry is it's not a necessary thing to do you know it is a definite like hobby thing if you're gonna do a crappy hobby the easiest it's easier to knit and it is just so it's cheaper barrier it's nothing you can find a really expensive yarn so it's not I don't think cheaper overall but the barrier to entry you you need like a pair of knitting needles which you can get very inexpensive and then you know a ball of yarn even if you're buying a $30 ball of yarn and a $10 knitting needles that's $40 to get started on that hobby you know with sewing you can find a $100 sewing machine but you're not gonna be extremely happy with it you know Lee you know you buy it I'd say these eight $800 will get you into a really really nice swing Jean that's a bit of barrier to entry um it used to be you would have to make your own clothes or making your own holding would be less expensive than going to the store to buy your clothing and that's just not the case anymore and people aren't if you're not sewing your own clothes you're not having the scraps you're not thinking goats from the scraps you know it's not something that my mom doesn't quilt you know she sells but I did see her with the sewing machine I have an advantage over someone who small didn't um you know it's just like if you're in a family that cooks you're more likely to cook your own meals you have a mom or grandma or somebody in your family that shows you're more likely to do it and it's becoming less and less popular you don't see on a television show except where we did see this on fresh off the boat yes the neighbor has a Janome sewing machine oh yes I saw that episode I was so excited honey I guess where she revamps her like curtains into a dress right and also they I've seen sewing on a few TV shows I feel like every time that happens it helps a little bit you know like it's one more person you see with a sewing machine okay and overall if that keeps happening maybe people will be like hey that's something people actually do right it's not this crazy you know because anytime I tell anybody you know that I'm involved in a fabric business they are always kind of like I usually tell people to leave ecommerce people understand that that seems normal if I say we're gonna ever company to get kind of confused because it's more you're more likely to have a website business a fabric store it's just more socially unacceptable understood right people don't just build in the bar and talk about what if we started sewing at bars you know just bring your sewing machine you know and I've seen that with many but you can bring your knitting anywhere yeah it's a lot more port like I've heard people say it's a lot more portable and I've talked to friends who live in New York City and they're like I do not have space for sewing machine so a lot of people you know there's definitely some space issues there there's a money issue do you have any thoughts on what the industry could do overall - maybe attract new customers well I think there'll be there'll be some more things happening this year with like the TV show that's gonna be happening with Amy Poehler and which apparently it's gonna be called making it okay because I listen to podcast called making it yes yes they worked the one guy from the podcast is on the show is like a helper like an instructor well actually worked with the show to do like the license to basically share the name making it's like yeah I think it shows like that definitely could help I think just one and so in England they have the Great British selling me you know and it's really cool a way that that all of that work and one of my friends actually wanted so that was relieving cooler for like to see my friend Charlotte wind but just having something like that on a public you know television I mean I guess not like PBS or anything it's just like having then on the television you know like how many more people cook now because they watched a master chef you know you know I watch master chef and I get excited about a dish you think of black before Food Network was around cooking shows was like PDF like Julia Child that one guy well yeah but the list is a lot shorter than now it's more stylized today people spend a lot more money on kitchen appliances how many things are you bombarded with ad wise I am all the time like oh you want to make your own bread yeah I'm saying have a $700 Vitamix blender you know great some people have it and I agree almost like the same thing happened with HGTV and people trying to DIY stuff right in sewing does seem to be a little more popular in the UK so I think something like that would definitely help obviously a lot of people here in the states the younger people want to YouTube so that's why I decided to start a channel was you know the more people who are doing it me you know again every little bit helps do you think there's other things maybe the industry could do to market to people who don't so yeah I think I mean having more tutorials like if you're gonna have all these quilt shops closing there are the people that have the know how big you need to be able make your own things and I think quilting is really kind of what we focus on because that's what I like to do you know in garment sewing is something that I think is very important you know just letting people know how your clothes are made even if you do like one shirt you decide it's not for you just knowing the amount of work that goes into that piece of clothing just or just I don't know it's hard to get things out there and I think you're right YouTube in that type of social media just kind of touching base with things like saying just like hey let's just show you how to make shirt or this is how a pair of pants is made and then it might be a curiosity thing of like oh let's fool just to know but I think if we all just have the knowledge that this is something that is taking a long time even if it's something that's inexpensive maybe then we think more about like why is this costing this much money why is it now that it is for example quilts people would make quilts because they needed to be warm I can buy a blanket at Target for $20 you know why would I spend over $100 for this piece of art you know it's a very interesting thing I know you're making a lot of your own clothes like you now know a lot more about the time and effort it puts into it so if you had to like put a price tag on a shirt that you made it would probably not be five dollars oh no no and the same thing with quilts a lot of people are like oh I'll give you $50 for that's like ya know yeah fifty bucks it would cost me $50 to milites yeah yeah exactly well that's that's that's so interesting you guys say that and I complete I just complete on agree with you more and I you know what the other thing I was thinking um I feel like we could tap into the people who want to get in touch with sustainable in like eco-friendly fashion a lot of these you know and I think the more we become aware of like the practices of fast fashion the less appealing it is for me you know as a customer to buy a $5 t-shirt knowing where it came from great I think the thing that seems really interesting is that it seems like there's kind of some there's like a little vacuum both in knowledge of knowing what a quilt is how you would begin to make well even the thirty-second like you take some fabric you sew it together you put a little layer here and a backing you quote that that's a club like cool you know somebody who doesn't know how to quilt just learn something but even knowing that much not everybody really gets that you know what is it dart in fabric like there's a lot of very basic things that people don't know and 30 years ago 40 years ago maybe everybody said come back no they don't so even if you saw it for like two or three weeks nowadays you don't even see that so you're not going to get that information I think if manufacturers you know it seems like there's a problem of whose responsibility is that if we're all invested in this market whose responsibility is it to pass down information because it used to be your mom your grandma or but now that doesn't really happen so you know if we all want people to you know enjoy this craft how are we going to do that and I think it's not just I don't know I think a lot there are therapies things about selling in quilting like in the world of a never-ending eight box it's so nice to have something that's physically finished you have a physical representation of your time you know and that is something that I've always liked about doing crafts and things like that you know when I was in my business incubator I was working on app and tech based business things and it's always cool and I love technology and I probably always will but it's different when you have a physical finished product than when you have something that's virtually finished like and you'll never get to the end of your inboxes someone will email you as soon as it's at zero you know all right and now you've got something Nick you put like when I look at certain thoughts I remember like the television show that I was watching when I was working on it or like the music I was listening to or the book that I was reading so I get like that little imprint of my time spent with it a lot of people are very stressed out in the world right now because of lots of things happening you know politics and and just like uncertainties that people have and it's very searching when you go into your craft room or your sewing room or your area or however you do it and then you you're able to follow direction they get to the end point of a theme you know and yeah like I do our accounting and it's not fun but there's a right answer and when you get done there's accomplishment you get for I did the thing it's complete all the numbers line up we're good you know same thing you'd work on a project you're like look I have two squares there so them together the appointments match and isn't that nice and that one warm because no III I'm with you on that I think sewing and quilting is so much fun and I think that's something we could you we could use to our advantage is the enjoyment the enjoyment of doing it and you know how special it is it when you give someone a handmade gift that's something no one else at that baby shower or that birthday party is gonna be giving that person and every time I've given someone like a quilt or something handmade the response is always usually very positive so I think that's something that again that's something special you can do for other people you love I only make if and I think there's also this assumption that if you sew things you sell them we're like how do people automatically assume that like it's just this like Etsy month and Helen like no offense that Etsy and no offense to people that do so and make their own business you know there are people who don't have time or don't want to do that like I don't know how to knit socks I would buy hand knit socks from Etsy you know it's just one of those things that I've always kind of wanted to do decided it wasn't for me but I'm okay supporting someone who actually can do that but um I don't know I feel like everybody just feels like they need to be productive now like okay there's this 12 year old on YouTube that's making million dollars that's easy right it seems easy to make money on YouTube when it's on a news story and it's a one-off person just same thing with like Etsy you hear all these success stories like if you look at Martha Stewart don't point to Etsy shops and things like that and it's great because you see these great makers and this handmade movement I appreciate that but every person you see there's a lot of yeah there are people who don't make it sort of like you guys owning a quilt shop a lot of people have the dream about owning a quilt shop but for a lot of people that would probably wouldn't work you know sort of like restaurants you know 95% of restaurants and that's something that you yeah I got again you guys know the the challenges and the everyday struggles of owning a quilt shop it's not an easy thing to do no I don't know in the person foremost it's a business you know I actually have business background in college and being in a business incubator for two years I learned a lot about business and I still didn't have every tool in my toolbox to succeed from day one you all right you're always learning something new business is always changing the industry is always change in every industry is changing at all times I think toys-r-us is playing on business now you know like it used to be that was the place to buy toys you buy them anywhere comes on target you know I think I think it's just one of those things where it just see the clothing industry seems like an easy thing to do well I think the Pinterest thing that we talked about probably plays into that what do you think of when I'm gonna just open up a store I'm gonna go through all these fabrics just the one that I want that's totally true but there's the flip side of that of the manufacturer shipped you have about you that and this thing is three weeks late in the or the money until next week or or they build you twice for it they find out it's a completer and you have to go in come call and complain and try to get some exactly you can't get the manufacturer to answer the phone when you hold it virtually we spend you spend more of our time on the problems but no one's gonna tell you bet on it job it's not it's not a it's not a nice thing to do like I can't believe that that someone so billed me twice you know like and if you don't really care you know you just want that dream like it's supposed to be fun for you is consumer and we want that for you you don't want you to care about what our challenges are you know it's kind of like having kids where you don't want to tell them like yeah well when you finish school yes that sounds great but then someday you'll have a job you know like you should enjoy being a kid that's you're not gonna tell you're not gonna tell them how much being an adult sucks but the reality is like we were dropping your son off to school today and he's like why do I have to go to school but you can have stuff when you get older well the stuff I have will this last forever no but if you think those dreams your customer the same thing like to think that it would be fun to have a fabric store there are a lot of fun things about it but it's not just those fun things and that's true of any business you know if you're you're a baker the same thing is true of my ship and then go out on my breath bad now you know there's challenges to every business well I think even with the etsy source or doing this successfully they're looking at it as a business not just a hobby oh if you like if you did a YouTube channel just like once every couple of months like you know you have to schedule things and do it as a business so and and it takes a lot of your time and your energy you know same with the doing building business you know you have to market yourself you define someone he divides the folks that you're making it's not just like if I make it picking will come but you know that's the first thing anybody asks you and I say I'm a quilt oh you sell them don't know I don't but you own the store do you sell your quilted in the store no no I don't just sit enough giant pile in my house but wait but I just it's not the part it's not the part of a different my business that's not my business I think some of that is when people think about you know people are so far removed from sewing but they think of like why do you sew it is it for profit because I the only exposure a lot of people have just like shirts this bag of store I'm not sure and we're sure they'll buy a new shirt so like why would you make your own is it for profit or for something else which is kind of weird when you think about it you know we talk about the restaurant now it's the same thing there I like cooking I don't hey I cuz I need to cook to have food you don't need to sew to have clothes but at one point you did want to do that shouldn't be a stranger it's interesting that just were just like a generation or two behind the the people who did so a lot and now we're at the point where like someone commented on my youtube channel ur like well it's the parents receive our fabric marketing and she said well the pay it's the parents responsibility teaches I'm like a lot of these kids parents don't know how to sew so they trim it they can't teach them something they don't know right again I'm sure lots of them maybe wish they had those that those skills but let's face it people under I would say 40 or 50 I would say the majority don't know how to sew I never had a home at class some of it's just that I'm a boy and I you know different states some of that but like you know when we get customers in all the time they're like I'm starting a quilt it's my first 12 I don't know what I'm doing or like okay do you know how to sew are you coming from some other background they go a little bit I sew with my grandma but my mom did a little bit they have an idea of what they're doing but not the whole process and so where is that person going to get any information and I think it's intimidating when you have a machine especially some of the machines that you can buy now like you can buy a $10,000 sewing machine it is very complicated like you could mess it up like it's different like it's not a sit down and then just do it type thing you have to learn that part too and most machines are pretty pretty easy and then and it's it's there's only a few that I think are really complicated but you know I think they do more than more than anybody actually maybe even a $700 Vitamix like you said there's like two months like start stop low high maybe like scoot through something else that's it so like for $700 there's only one two options and basically the only rules are like I don't know but there's a couple but it's not as complicated as sewing where for a $700 sewing machine you could break this possible so it's people or intimidate I've taught I mean it's something really we keep sitter eight nine years old on it like they can figure it out do you do you have any recommendations for beginners good beginner sewing machines that that made me you know obviously you guys are Janome dealers um what are some models that you think would be good for someone if they're buying their first machine um I well my favorite coin machines are like the DC 2015 and that range it's like five hundred dollar range and I know that's not like the least expensive for people even like the Hello Kitty machine that we have on sale right number one hundred and thirty dollars it works it works just fine I gave one of my sister and it's Hello Kitty on it's like you just got it and and there will be for very much longer so those are anyway but it's this team is like twenty to ten or something like that yeah twenty-two twenty-two yeah the mod 11 is a really good machine that the mod series is new and that's the starter series so the mod 11 is a good machine like we sold a bunch to our public libraries so you can actually go to the library and check out oh that's neat that you know what that's a really good idea is to have that sort of system for people who don't want to commit to a sewing machine right away that's really premium and a lot of the libraries especially in bigger cities will now have that type of option for you so you should check your local library to see if they have sewing machines like keyboard what guitars like stuff that you can buy out so I follow this lady okay so as you know I've been getting into this whole dollhouse crazy I've started following this lady she makes miniature furniture and she designs all the stuff she's crazy good she can go to her library and use a CNC laser cutting machine I'm like like these libraries like there's such resources I need to go check mine out to see what they've got but and I'm sure I near-term there's probably a lot of good options oh my gosh I like rent I'm like you can you can go and use a laser cutting CNC machine at a library those are like what eight nine thousand dollars alright and I and I asked the person in our library I asked like you know one of the machines they had four muscles uh you know in the mid-range ones and I said well do they put a deposit down or do they have to take a class to check it out she said no they just rent it that's your library card and I was the one that has to do all the cleaning and service and yeah so I was like looking at him to clean them and expecting like they're gonna be all like super jacked up because people are renting them that like well and they had a few different brands and you know I'll Pat us on the back look everyone's held up really nicely and right yeah it was like kind of worrying when we got there like well what are they going to look there was another brand that they bought like cheaper machines and they were not not all of them worked anymore after a year yes I felt kind of bad for them you know I told them all you're ready to replace me yeah because when you go to the like if you go to a big box store and buying the difference between a machine that you can buy it like a big box store for a hundred dollars versus something that you spend two or three in a nicer friend is the parts on the inside like you might still get a metal frame on a 100 dollar sewing machine but the metal that it's made from it's not as strong and yours are plastic you might have plastic gears we have plastic gears and you Jam it the gears and break and that district and your traffic is garbage Lee and it's just like a pair of denim you know you buy a nicer pair of jeans for a hundred dollars and then hopefully you can hopefully because I have complaints about expensive clothes too but you know hopefully you can wear it you know for years to come especially if the lines are clean you know it's an appliance a sewing machine is an appliance you know like the $700 Vitamix like that blender does work better than a cheap blender do you need a $700 Vitamix depends on how many margaritas you're making like it really does we we see people coming in with Janome has a product line for like semi-professionals you know you know like I've got 1,600 P which is a straight stitch only machine that machine goes sixteen hundred stitches a minute but it is all metal is super-heavy so I'm not gonna carry it around not gonna beat that's not likely your sewing class machine is right like it's but for what I'm using it for I want a really nice stitch and I want to go really fast and that's it delivers that that machine is no computerized arts in it it can last me forever as long as I know mess up the gears you know my not taking it into getting serviced and you know and we talked before about like disposable sewing machines and things like that but um when you're spending that much money it's not a disposable item you know it will work better when you have a machine that works better you will be less frustrated you will watch us some more and you'll get more done yeah and I know you're asking originally what's you know what advice do you have to somebody looking for a machine then I think that's something that I would really recommend and it's it's not just a sales pitch don't cheap out cuz like if you think about just the cheapest car you can go and find you're not gonna you're gonna you're gonna die in that car it's there's reasons people I mean you can't buy a car for $2,000 you could they make them in like India or whatever you can do eager because people will die in those cars so you wouldn't do the same thing with the sewing machine and I think people lose sight of that if you're buying a machine for your you know for your kid and they're five or six and they want to so maybe don't get them a $3,000 sewing machine but if you get them a $40.00 sewing machine and it works kind of sort of and then it jams and made it you might have just ruined that I can't tell you how many people I've talked to that have done that they bought a 40 or 50 or $60 machine from like Walmart or something nothing wrong with Walmart but something went wrong with it and then the kid never ended up using it or the other story I hear from people is they were at Costco or they were shopping online and they just picked up some random sewing machine they're like oh this would be good to have but unfortunately they don't know anything about the machines and most of the people I've talked to that have done this have not taken them out of the box which is yeah that's a shame like it's a shame in both directions if you think man you know sewing well sewing doesn't suck sewing with a forty dollar machine sucks you know I don't care what forty dollar machine you have everybody yes you can you can take that one of the bank yeah in the opposite Struve if you buy something because we don't have you know that were somebody got it at a big-box store I've never opened it but we do have like your friend Jen bought a serger years and years ago years ago I never took it out of the box it was brand-new she was so old the manual usually he was a VHS that's how nice ever used it because she was a serger she's intimidated Bennett's like why spend the money and I think I use you know most places would we give out lessons sure and I think well and and that's the big thing you know do you buy it from a big box or feed by dealer usually if you buy it from a local dealer you'll get a lesson with the Machine and a lot of the machines like all the Janome machines DVDs like they do not come with HSN um so you can pop it in there and watch it you know how to use basic stitches on the machine you know I think the for the 500 or 1000 dollar price range of machines are perfectly good like machines to have basically forever you know you can have a $1,500 sewing machine and it will last you 25 30 years the only reason that people upgrade these machines is because they outgrow them really want a feature that's newly there's constantly new features coming out it's like this boom of like sewing machine features over the last like 10 years you know like the machines my first machine that I bought I think I sent like twelve hundred dollars on it and I it had like all this stuff that was really cool but now that would be all those same features would be on like a $600 machine you know like it's just like with cell phones like whoo your phone is a flip phone like that's a really exciting thing because a color screen yeah the colors color screen was a really big thing you know and now you can browse you share in the world real sewing machines with Wi-Fi yes the things they do now versus there's some of the surgeries they've just been changing the lower and ones and they felt like you know that over time they they get rid of the models and some of the better ones that used to be like the high-end one is now the low-end lot of different models because they are easy so if you guys could design the absolute perfect machine what would it be like I know she's gonna tell you but see I'm gonna think different things and you're gonna think because I don't care about making what I would have like 15 inches with no space yeah weigh 25 pounds no I don't think I don't care how much it weighs they would have a straight stitch is the exact stitch that's pretty much it and a cutter and the presser foot raising yeah yeah tiny that's whatever you know like the machine that I just got the Janome 6,700 it has a big throat space it has but the thing is is they all have a bazillion stitches that's something pretty easy than they can put into any gene that gives you your dad will come and you end up using like three of them right and really what you're wanting is the bigger motor like they give you more stitches because they need to show you value you know you need to be able to see what's the difference between these two machines it might be stitches on the outside but you might have a bigger motor actually in the machine you know the thing that's funny is that when you're selling a sewing machine or when you go to store buying they don't tell you how many horsepowers what what is the diameter of the you know any of the parts in there was you know the needle cap is it you know 12 millimeters is it 14 gonna last longer together nobody tells you any of that so you look at two machines you're like oh this one's red I'll take that one the way that's going online right you know all things being equal you don't really know what you're buying but if you're looking at like a car your options are do you want to e.x the LXE you know all those different things and sometimes you don't get the option of what features you have so I don't need it to have a moonroof but I want the being sir the v6 so I'm going to get the higher package it's the same thing with machine I won 11 inches of throat space so I'm gonna get this machine instead of that one I don't care that it's 150 stitches instead of two yeah just and they have they have machines out out there that you have a big fruit space with very few stitches but the motors in them are not very good and then you get it's it's hard to know what you're what you're buying it's easy when you go in and test drive something and I think for it's really intimidating for people's first machines you know and some people don't trust other people you know we talk about blogs and things like that like it's hard to find a good source of information that's actually trustworthy like I read a blog post recently and it was like five really great beginning sewing machines and it was just some it was just Amazon links to make money for that blogger and in the comments somebody like well why did you choose this machine that looks like a C and she's like oh I've never actually sold anything you know like they just looked cool that's not gonna actually help anybody out you know a cooking class couple weeks ago we asked the shop for like she said you should get this type of night and we're like what brand do you recommend it's just well they kind of just you know it's all personal preference some of them are better than others obviously but like you have to hold them now usually goes I like this brand in fluid oceans are so highly personal some people are just devoted to a certain brand but other people don't like it so the opinion like that's the thing it's so subjective there's really no right there's no right answer there's no like this is the best sewing machine on the market some people might love you know Bernina some people might like Janome some people might like brother and everybody's got an opinion but that doesn't mean the other people are wrong it just yeah I mean I think largely you get what you pay for and so if you're spending $200 you're gonna get a $200 sheet and that might get you more and one brand versus another but I don't think anybody does a good 200 dollar machine that's gonna be like like no brand you're gonna get so Jason I want to ask you when you were a kid did you ever think as an adult you would be an owner of a quilt shop and what's what's it been been like for you is you know especially being a guy there's there's there's definitely a bit of a gender disparity in the quilting world do you have any observations as is as a guy there I have a lot of I have a lot of opinions and comments but I think the thing that's the most interesting for me is that you know in a predominantly male world it's interesting to be in a predominately female business and so I have comments and I try to think well is the opposite true and the rest of my life and sometimes it's yes and sometimes it's well no it's just a niche so like for example we had a customer that came in you know if there's two or three people working retail and somebody comes in usually they look at you know whatever girl is their first instead of looking at me because I'm just a guy who I don't know what they think I do that I had someone come in one time who's like hey guys you know can I help you oh she goes yeah could somebody help me out with colors and matching colors yeah sure I can help you what do you have she looked around and she's like me buddy I think you would be good with colors no no it's funny because at the time everybody working there I was the only person with a degree she didn't know that so I was the most qualified person and she looked at me and went yeah I need I need a professional someone who knows what they're doing so that kind of stuff comes up and I think it's it's frustrating but then the ops it's probably true because I've been to Home Depot and there's a lot of women that work at like Home Depot and you do you find you gravitate more towards the dudes I usually do and I'm not I'm neither handy so that's not because I think that they know more or less but I feel like you know I usually look for the old guys because they seem to know more but then that's a stereotype too so it's kind of it's it's weird when you fall into those things and I think I notice it more in our business but it's funny too because the opposite is true where you know there's designers there's a lot of female designers there's some male designers and I think it's interesting just seeing what's what's out there and what names stick in your head and then sometimes it's the you know some of the names stick in your head because that's that one guy but then sometimes you you know usually like them or so before you know who designs the fabric you know I I really like Jill dewberries fabric I love his stuff and I have to remind myself do I like the design of the fabric or do I like the decent guy and yeah he's a guy on the guy left beverage it's it's interesting what kind of stuff you know what you notice what are you what do you feel the industry could do to get more men sewing well I think the same thing is what you could do to get women it just needs to be seen people know that their grant like in those stories we were telling my grandma grandpa sells right and I don't think that there's anything wrong there's there's really no so they were tailors I mean later Taylor was typically you know it's just a different it's a stereotype just like anything else I think we're lucky enough that we live in the town that like is a little bit more progressive but some people live in places where it's not a cool thing to do to do something that's not your gender stereotypical norm which is kind of disappointing but it you know we could see more people actually doing this like like Rob Appell has his man sewing you know he's a cool dude like he's a like hip young gay I mean I stay young but he's my age you know and I don't know that I can see myself young anymore I mean it but like you know you see we do some more examples like that you know my friend Chris Thompson he's a great sower and great filter you know he's a professional male and he works in the sewing world now and makes really cool stuff like our friend Giuseppe he makes he we just had him come teach for us and he was like everybody complimented that other him on motive great you know teaching job but he's an extrovert you know it he's got a theater background he's going to be a good teacher plus he's been sewing for years so he actually knows what he's doing it it's beautiful you know it the stuff that they're making you think the introvert/extrovert thing is interesting too because I find that a lot of sewing a lot of people that so are usually introverts that's not always true obviously but I think it's more okay for an extroverted woman to so that an extroverted man I think that happens a lot less and the ones that do usually you notice right away but you know like your dad started sewing recently yeah and nice yeah he finished the fillings so yeah my dad wanted to make a boat he wanted to start sewing like he's trying to retire like next year he's they're retiring what's a hobby if you get to a certain point in your life and you don't have anything to do like what do you you you know you've got to have something to keep yourself occupied during the this is why we all have hobbies right keep ourselves from going it completely insane so we decided to start sewing and when asking me questions I ended up my mom knows how to sew lucifer hook him up with the silly machine again I did like this thing yeah it was funny because my mom has a sewing machine she's had I think some point 1982 it's it's a old sewing machine it still works you know it's not a very exciting sewing machine but she usually makes kids clothing that she made all our clothes were little and I was like dude you sure you don't want to sign that she she like not oh no I'm good so finally I went over for my dad and I just brought one over I was tired of hair even say no I was like we're just gonna leave this flying machine here you guys figure it out and now they both use it and we enjoy sewing and my dad made his first quote he designed it himself I helped him write the pattern and do all of that for his first time you know he's done woodworking for years he's a surveyor so he does fast and geometry for a living you know and I said you just have to do a quarter inch seam around every piece and he was like oh alright I get it now you know there's still way more tricks than that but like that's the general idea of you just absent doing those who can't go wrong yeah just dancing well um but yeah so his first project was a queen-sized book for the bed whatever II didn't finished inside you know and I have to start down the Bible impressive that's really first first quilt yeah well and when he finished it the crazy thing is you know he was and he was in town this last weekend actually I just came back from the quilter and he was playing it all weekend and it was funny because he was I was like yeah you finished it looks great he's like yeah I want to make another one and so he's actually making him four of them one for each season he's doing spring moun next spring tide right was really cool to hear and I've done and was like I want to do more this is great and you know I do you think there's a lot about sewing that can appeal to people of any background any gender but yeah I do like I've talked to a few guys like I've kind of been like you know what would get you interested in sewing you know and one guy I talked to him particularly he had some good points he's like he's like some of these sewing events kind of scare me he's like because I know they're gonna be all women he's like I don't know if I feel comfortable at some of these just because I would feel at place and his other thought was he felt sewing machines did not look very appealing to males and then another thing he said which really spoke to me he's like I wish they would use words that were a little more like you know high-end sounding like bespoke rather than you know handmade or something like that and I was like you know that's a really good way to put it in that would really I think pique more interest if you use more terminology that sounds like not not necessarily cooler but a little more like yes I think we're redoing our website right now and one of the things we're trying to do is to make it look I mean so I made the website and everything it's just like drawing when you draw something it looks like you draw it you can recognize you're on same thing with a website I look at it and yeah that's something else has my hammer so we're looking at the website and we're trying to make it more feminine because our customers are me so you know it's interesting because on our end we're trying to appeal to the broader audience which is women and the opposite I think is true for if you're trying to get men into the arena or you know even just by bloggers doesn't that's your life when I think it I mean just having good examples of men that quilt you know just knowing that there are other people out there that have the same hobby issue is really know I think that in generally even with like younger people you have a friend that says it's a lot easier for you to do that like you have accepting friends and you don't say like hey guys I'm gonna start to sew and they're not they're like vastly we're gonna go great fine you know then you you have this the type of like I don't know it's really it's like the permission right but yeah somebody saying it's okay Brandi you're not furnished because we we've and we've had that question with our retreats where people come in they call ahead in their life so I want to go but I so when my wife's out of town because she doesn't either machine or mice curious about it is it okay if I show up and so is that really yeah yeah you know it's not women sewing retreats us we had one guy and yeah we had there was one guy that showed up with his mom actually means his trying to make a wedding well Fergus the son was getting married and so the new daughter-in-law and she said I want to make this thing she wants to go to this retreat and hopefully 10 years in here and it was in Karen and Herbert and so that's where the families from then she goes well I'm gonna come visit you guys and then that weekend I'm gonna go to retreat and so the son who moved away from home so I will go with you and so both of them were sewing side-by-side so he was learning to sew for I don't it was the first time but not an act did he enjoy it yeah he said it was great I was kind of trying to get the word out you know what if you are a guy and you're single it might be a good place to meet some ladies I'm just sitting here you know not not everyone at these events are you know married or you know um some of them are the younger side some of them are single and at least you know what kind of person they are there's someone who likes to you know better themselves and learn something yeah mostly at home so they're not usually out meeting people plan you know maybe maybe there could be some opportunities for singles events I don't know singles it's true though because a lot of the time you know a lot of customers are like the married have kids whatever but then you know sometimes it's the sister of that person and they go to retreats together they hang out whatever and yeah if they were sitting down next to somebody else you know maybe they're even even if not like it's a good way even aside from that just to make other friends or you know it sounds like how some I've heard some like you know celebrities and they'll be like yeah I signed up for theater it's like a meet girls you know what was it I think Bryan Cranston said that he said he he literally said he did theater so he could meet women alright so hey not saying that not saying that that should be your side effect you know lady I think we still like if I looked at our demographics 95 percent of the people that come to our website or female about 5 percent are male which is it's still a majority of the industry it's too bad that it's not 50/50 but it's just it is right now well and what I you know there was something else I wanted to touch on as well can you tell people a little bit more about the retreats I know you've been getting them for a while but can you explain like kind of what they are and how people can get in on interest yet well um first you can go to stitch alikom or google glamp such a lot it's like glamorous candy we don't actually do any candy we used to be camp stitch a lot because we do small events at breakfast and now we do them at bigger hotels so like our next event is in November and we have national teachers that come in and teach you things so this time you get four classes with four really great teachers it's a whole the whole weekend thing like Jason was saying like people do leave with new tracks like every single time people leave with new BFFs you know here's you eat all the meals are included for the weekend you're in the same spot the whole time so you get to know your your group mates people hope they put on pajamas and they don't they obviously change but they're wearing pajamas the entire we go on and yeah you know it was okay to me yeah very even where your your soft pants and and people bring bags of candy and you know each other or share stuff you know it's really cool we do a swap ahead of time so like if you're then some people are great to go to a sewing retreat alone and I think that I would totally get that fear and if you are one of those people who don't have on so anybody but want to make is sowing money this is the great the best free to do it and tell us that too because we can even say hey someone need a new best friend people that do that they write these shot they say hey I'm going to the room that time yeah yeah yeah Phyllis a yeah and as she was getting out of the car I picked her up from the airport her travel plans changed a little bit and one of the other you know ladies that was there Vicki she she's like hey we're all going to the coast or a town who's coming with three you're coming with me and now they're friends she showed up I was like five years ago every retreat sense dish and I think that's really one of the ladies that came to one of her retreats years ago still comes like she was saying that this is I finally found like my my tribe that people understand me like my my sons and my husband don't really understand like what I do and they don't get it and now I feel like I'm in a room full of people who understand and then it was really just like a really cool thing like the sense of belonging and just making the new friends you know and when I moved to Ann Arbor I didn't know anybody I'm from Ohio and I lived in Michigan for a few years but I didn't know anybody out here except Jason and you know really sewing is what helped me make new friends like starting the quilt guild in town and now we have like seven members or in Arkham are both killed you know and those people and have been my friends for years now you know like so it's it's cool and to be able to do that and we're lucky that we have a lot of repeat campers and they're not standoffish people they're very welcoming and open evil um all of like our anti wriggled we're kind of like a welcome committee so when we find and see new people or like okay let's take you into arms and like the other Facebook group that's private for you event and we do that ahead of time so that if people wanted to come in and air - early 90s Ron's you can meet up with people you you know go shopping at our shop you know do all that cool stuff in other words a really cool town what we're number one in the in the world or the country yes most desirable city to live yeah it's just kind of nice you know it's it's funny because being a big college mountain there's a lot of people from a lot of people from other countries or free food of all different types lots of restaurants bars music shop is economic shop a lot of college kids coming into the store not really not yeah it's it's less common mostly just because we know usually when they do they don't really leave with what they came for you know there's a lot of college kids or community costumes for like cosplay stuff for Comic Cons that's your thing and and then they see all the quilting fabric thing and when you when you first get into it you don't understand like the difference in fabrics yeah so you probably think you could make a costume out of like any type of fabric and then you realize this is really not good for this yeah and so they come in because they're like I just needed it every fabric shop I want to join didn't have I was looking for I'm gonna see if this other place yeah and no I don't have but I think one of the thing I stopped thinking about that like why no the college kids is we're next to a lot you know Eastern Michigan really close like we live over right there and we're so close to you about you know but when I was in college there was no way I would have the time just because I was busy with my studies and I really think that when I what and it's not that I didn't know how to sew that whole time it's just that it wasn't my focus my focus was my studies in my school you know and that was like eight years of my life well if you think of the other challenges we talked about money money yeah well that's not quite always the case you can't always just assume but that's true but you think the average kid doesn't have a lot of space area they don't have a lot of times they're studying doing with a lot of money and a lot of cases because there's Austria College and there's always exceptions but if I had that I would bet they don't have all three of those things right and but I think like when I really started getting into this so I'm is when I like settled down a minute you know like I wasn't going out every night meeting friends anymore you know like it was I was now at home with nothing to do I mean housework to do but that's just not as much fun as I was about you you'd rather quilt than the d-day lodge absolutely those are some interesting observations I you know it does seem like you see more younger people again knitting and crocheting and that's something that is a little bit more portable and can be a little bit cheaper to get started on you know I wonder if that might be like the gateway kind of like the gateway into sewing for these people I think there's a lot of soldiers that also yeah you know or embroidery like hand embroidery something and embroidery is cool now like if you see like oh yeah it's really hot no it's really cool and like people are doing really interesting embroidery to like subversive cross stitch like and the funny the funny phrases oh yeah I love it I think it's really cool and I mean I still cross the Johnny Cage hit is murder and do that kind of stuff too but I think you're right I think knitting is kind of like a gateway craft you know like it you can you can make something and you've got that same sense of accomplishment you have n Chi realize that better Narni equals better product you know same thing with fabric Oh better fabric equals a better built or you know a better dress you know you like I bought knit to make a top from big box store because it was cheap and I was trying stuff out and it pills up you know you get like the pill the little pills all over it and your seams or the fabric gets a hole in it because it's not made with long staple cotton you know like you get really the gist of it but you don't get the reward of having a shirt when you're spending that much time and effort making something you don't want it to fall apart in a couple washes right especially with the quilt because you know if you know when you make I can make a top in an hour especially with a serger and I come a problem sheet right but it there's no way I could make a quilt event helper even a mini but um you know I don't think people realize that like even vintage fabrics like it's cool like you can find that really cool vintage fabrics like when you get something that's like kind of like nineties and Beyond they're mostly colorfast and like the fabrics now you get over local shop they don't shrink like they used to they used to have to pre wash all your your quilting patterns because they would shrink or bleed and that doesn't really happen like dyes are a lot more stable so you're going to have a product that will last you a good long time you know I've had pillows that are up there on the couch for you know good ten years now and they still look fine and you know there's no holes like we use them a lot so you know it's got that long gel and jelly that real heirloom quality you know you're gonna give a quilt to somebody like I collect vintage fabrics and vintage quilt tops and things like that and you can see like one fabric all over the quilt is just gone in a vintage twelve-point or it's white birds all the die of it and it's because it was just not as good of a quality material and it's just that once but it's like it's one better prints I get all these little it's really weird to go it looks but it be it was different some of those are 90 years old right great you know and it's impressive the ones that have lasted 90 years old they're 90 years so I think you'd mention about knitting being a possible gateway you know hobby I think her that is because like we mentioned it's a low low cost to get involved in it but then also when you're buying it a lot of my securing it carry other hobbies and then if you're in the place you know then they're like hey this is cool to like again like like you know one thing might segue into another and I think if we can get it people interested in one of those maybe they could Moran shout and try the others too which I think even you know I like seeing people doing those other things because we don't sell yarn for knitting and so I think it's neat when I see people doing that just because it's a real hobby it's not like seem at all but you know they're making a scarf and we sell it for making hello it's not really the same but I get it it's you know related but I think it's interesting because you know that person going to mine it next time might walk past a sewing machine you go why would I do this and then Gio sit down and try it or even just walk past the fabrics all over the cool designs I go what do I do in this this is me away away yeah like c'mon times people will inherit a sewing machine or like my grandma gave me a sewing machine or my aunt maybe want her old sewing machine we get people in with their with their hand-me-down machines Craigslist is a great place if you don't if I knew you know you can still buy a good brand and you can still take it into your dealer and get it fixed you won't have the warranty but one thing I was reading Somerville about like hey should you buy a machine in a thrift store and I thought it was really interesting it was yes with the caveat of a lot of the machines now people will take things they'll strip them which is kind of a disappointment so you're gonna need to actually go and make sure that it I've seen people bring in used machines I get this a lot where they go to our garage sale and he bought a machine ten dollars he said I'm gonna pay you you know your service costs to get it fixed because it's still cheaper than buying the machine depending on what I'm doing for them that could be the case but then they bring me this machine I say well it's great except there's no presser so it's not a machine yet it's going to be a machine if you find the presser foot and sometimes it matches one that we have and I go cool here's a quarter-inch but you're good to go and when they don't know what they're looking at or they don't know what they're looking for it you know you don't know what you're behind because like for instance I recently have been doing some research on doll houses and there are I've been finding there are certain brands that are like very coveted you know so again like if you find a Bernina sewing machine on Craigslist you know that's a good one to snoopeh scooped out but you don't have the information you know they could go and get a you know super cheap not good sewing machine at a thrift store for five dollars and it's also honey is like yeah it's funny because like so we were doing that machine cleans down this last week and so I saw just all sorts of machines that people brought in some of them were machines we've sold to them some of them are so they brought in a featherweight to be cleaned just all sorts of machines and so one of them somebody brought in a Kenmore and as I'm cleaning it I'm looking at the different parts of a machine and it is absolutely at Janome Magnolia to the 12 station egg no Leah just looking at the parts it's the same exact machine because a lot of manufacturers either got bought like somebody else they don't machines anymore they're just getting like the name on it yeah somebody wanted a singer that has 150 stitches it all has a tension on them and we carry it and I know it makes it yeah so it's interesting and so knowing a little bit about it helps we have one lady who goes to garage sales knows which ones are worth getting at which aren't we'll buy a machine for a friend so she'll look at it okay honey dollar machine and Jill told her friend I found one it's three bucks it's yours so that's a good way to help people get into sewing too is if you can find a really good bargains on machines get them fixed up and then give them or sell them very cheaply to people you know yeah you know we've got section it's an idea and we take trade-ins and most dealers do that's something where you could always go in and say like I'm looking for a starter machine this is what my budget is you know you can even put your name on a list that when something pops up they can help you with that you know which it helps both honest to me because you're getting machine for cheaper and then other people will come in and say you know I want to sew but I don't want to spend 500 bucks and if I can sew for like a week or two maybe I treat myself I know great here's $100 trade in that somebody has it's not great but last year one and like at I've always thought like when you start to sew you either decide you like it or you really really get it don't like it or you really really get into the room so we just put in a trade up policy so you came in and you bought a two hundred dollar sewing machine and then you decided you really liked sewing you could trade up you give us that machine back and you get all the money that you paid towards well machine that's a higher value again because I don't want you to think you're stuck with a machine that doesn't have all the features that he like some people are like oh I don't know if I would really want a thread cutter and then like two months later you think oh I should buy the machine with the thread cutter where they show up at like one of our retreats and they get to use one you know they were on the machines and they go yeah this is really nice I bought a like this is way nicer than my machine yeah and sometimes they they say well I wish I wouldn't back out the old one well now you don't regret yeah I had somebody can the cover Pro machine de Vaca 900 MHz px 900 and they're like I really wish that I would have gotten the CTX 1000 so I could have that skinny like the two good just skinnier ham on it and I was like oh did you buy it with us and she was like no and I was like you should have a kind of chicken a vibrator versus the same $100 upgrade you know like so I don't know dealers will always have like your own special things that they do obviously we want you to shop with us but you know my I'm also mutt people this so you know yeah now yeah after being in this industry for several years do you have any thoughts on things that overall the sewing industry could do to thrive more to get new customers like I know you have I know we've talked about this a lot over the few few years I've known you yeah and one thing I really appreciated about both of you is how honest you are and just how real you are about like the business side you're not like oh everything's super perfect like you guys really you know know what's up and a lot of the things you've told me over the years I found to be absolutely true things are blogging and just things about the industry so I was just wondering if you have any thoughts obviously the sewing industry right now you know and it has been for a while it's it's definitely not really growing and thriving you know obviously we've seen businesses merge and close and a lot of these quilt shops unfortunately are not making it what do you feel like the industry needs to do to overall get a little healthier and maybe start to to experience some growth we need to have justice just a higher level of business acumen you know a lot of people who run nice run I mean I'm no offense to hobbyists to turn business people but you know there's there's not a whole lot of like professional there's sometimes some non-professional things that happen in the industry you know um people aren't getting paid what they should get paid there's a lot of Technology divided unfortunately like there's a lot of people we all of our vendors still take fax orders I think I've seen it's even hard to order fabric wholesale online like not all the not all the manufacturers have functional website if you go to our website you're trying to find you know Kona and white it'll tell you how much Kona and white I have and that's usually pretty close sometimes the bolt is listed wrong it's off a little bit but if I had say 2000 yards of it I can tell you yeah I've got plenty good if you try and buy it from a manufacturer and some are better than others but mostly I don't know if they have it and sometimes I don't know till the shipment arrives inflators and it's just not in the box it's it's interesting the way that like a lot of other industries work you know like if you were to order a product from a website like you as a customer you would go to Amazon and buy a product and then it would show up at your house two days later that doesn't happen in the manufacturing world you know one of the big things is that none of the fabric is made in America like it's just not we don't have the mills to do that anymore a lot of the mills that we used to have we sold overseas like denim we don't make denim anymore I think our last denim mill closed this year or last year you know there's no documentary walk oh yeah there's one on it I don't know why I keep seeing them documentary but you know I think the one of the things that have to happen is a lot of the practices that have been around for a really long time ago you have to change you know we we have a technological world now you as a customer like when your favorite fabric designer shows something online sometimes it's months and months before who is a customer you can actually buy and then by the time you've forgotten about it right and then the things that I have in the store I need to get rid of because now it's no longer popular but great then that speeds everything up even more it's there's there's still a technological device you know there's still people who have been doing it the way that they've been doing it since 1984 and then there's the customers are brand-new and very technological technologically savvy so it's not caught up to that and you know we're trying as best we can to have like a good website like where you know our website seven years old that's not really that old but it could use an update websites you see look like they're from like 1995 I don't very extensive but it looked like 1990 it's really bad and but at the same time they had all the tools for buying cross-stitch materials it was really interesting looking at it and I think over time you'll get more link it's just easier to make a website now than it was ten years ago yeah you know like I know some computer programming is that was my first major in college but you know you can do a lot more drag-and-drop now like I swear I get an ad for Wix every other day you know like there's all these really cool things that you can do and I think as an industry as a whole just realizing that it's I don't know like elevating things just a little bit more not just down to master Chevy but like you know I think it's you unemployed it's you know it's lifting elevated or sewing elevated you know like just because you make your own clothes doesn't mean you have to look frumpy you know I think sometimes people get that link handmade in their head and they're like mm this is gonna look like macaroni glued to a picture frame you know and that's that that's the type of myths that we have to dispel from people's lines like making something at a manufacturing you know if it's made overseas by a robot that doesn't make it better it makes it different it changes the cost it doesn't change what right well there's nothing that you can buy that you can't make somebody made everything that's out it makes quality anything you can make that yeah and and even it's somebody who's intimidated like why can't I never went to art school I would never know what colors to use like that's a learned thing I did go to art school and I learned that you know just by trial and error and practice and things like that you know and reading books about it like her blog there's so much content out there like almost too much and it's great and most of its free too most of it is free you know like and a lot of libraries are excellent resources like they have huge crafting book sections like especially like our libraries out here like they get all of the new books you know it releases and everything like in between the books of the machines like there's a lot of things I need to go to the life's clearly to go directly but it's it's really interesting because there's one there's a branch right by us where there's actually a coffee shop I forget what chain it is but some manner chain in the in the library well weird but there's coffee shops and everything Barnes and Nobles but it's free yeah baby know what people hang out at Nordstrom's people hang out there it's a destination and so we actually I started going to the library they have little rooms you can go check out so I do girl them coffee and now the kids section with iPads is not the way that you'd picture just like I'm sewing isn't what you picture when so you're so sees you know hears about sewing it's the same thing in the library and I think those are tools that you're paying for tax dollars you should use them bring yeah you know that's interesting you say that you could rent sewing machines at the library you know it would actually be kind of cool to have more programs like that where life maybe you can sew at the lot you can get a sewing machine and so there or something you know like just something where people can try it out without having to commit to the purchase yet yeah yeah and the other thing that's neat about that too is that they teach classes and if you want to because we asked like what can we come teach classes there and get in front of your audience and they said yeah the only stipulation has to be open to the public free but that's nice for the you know that's like marketing for you guys to yes hey we're like hey we're Brendon Jason we own a fabric and sewing machine store yeah you have questions come find me I'm here seven days a week Ryan because I was actually kind of thinking about trying to do something like that just trying to help people at least I'm not a sewing expert but I could help someone use a sewing machine right so I was even thinking about trying to do something in person to just help people if they wanted to know more about it yeah I think another thing to your original question of what's what could the industry do I think it seems like a lot of the time there's an emphasis on business what's good for my store what's good for my manufacturing brand well it's gonna help me turn over a bigger profit here or even just you know stem the flow of things decreasing and I think that a lot of us in this side of the industry see is that we kind of lose sight of what the customer wants because all of this is for someone to buy fabric and then sew and make a quilt or or whatever pass that down and I think if you lose sight of what that goal is if you don't know what your goal is that you're moving but it knows a long direction and I think a lot of manufacturers will come up with a lot of fabric so that they can make you buy from them instead of some other person but you don't necessarily want that as a customer so it's not always with the best intention of you know what the goal is because if the goal is to get more people so giving them too many options isn't going to help it's going to make it harder the same thing with machine seems the same thing with craft stores there's a limit to what you can take in and I think trying to figure out what what is your goal and what gets everybody happier because if everybody across the industry you know if there was twice as many people sewing and I had the same piece I'm great with that yeah but if we try and do something that hurts the industry so that I can make a little bit more money that doesn't help any no that didn't you know what that's so that's a really really good point and yeah like I think the goal that every business chef should be to get more people sewing and I I do have an idea I was talking about this with Denise Wilde be a little while ago I feel like I I think sewing machine manufacturers over the long term would be good having kind of like a loss leader like sort of like how people got like people like they would offer free phones but you had to pay for the service right you know they need a good sewing machine that's very affordable that can almost just be like to get people to do it you know even if the machine was a hundred dollars and they ate the cost that customer would start sewing and then they might buy a $5,000 sewing machine later on and there's some brands that do that to an extent where they have I don't know if it's necessarily a loss leader but there's some that are very inexpensive machines with the impending when the intention of get it into someone's hand but again it kind of comes back to you get what you pay for it so how much of a loss leader is it are they selling it at their cost are they actually losing money because really it the same way I would tell somebody don't buy a machine that don't chief found out otherwise you're not gonna like it it has to be a big enough of a loss leader of it like a decent like you have to be a decent machine but being sold at a price that would be really to people because if it's a $500 machine sold for $200 they're losing a bunch of money but then also if the goal is to make them buy a 5000 or machine later it can't be so good so yeah there's a lot of room it'd be an interesting concept because there's other people that do that but I'm in the in the cellphone industry like you would still have a plan that went along with it - or even rent now it's like a home rental you have to like turn it back in or you know you need to pay for it over time and things like that like you're in a contract right no by the soda machine for two years budget to Pamela we fee you know or like you get like you end up paying like submit like I feel like a business like crafts they could do this you know they have the subscription model like MIT to a two-year subscription you get a sewing machine for 50 bucks you know something yeah something just to get like we just need to get sewing machines into people's hands and also teach them how to use it like give gonna write information and give them good instructions so that they they don't just let it sit in the box in the closet and it's a different it's different so I machines are very different now than they were in the past doing some research on pricing because a lot of people come in and they're like well you know it used to be that sewing machines were cheap it's like no no no and Rita asked me the other day why are they so it's constant it's it's not it's the inflation has happened like the singer 5:01 machine I was looking up the price of that like the 1950s he was like two hundred and eighty dollars but but in the day that was like that was a huge expense yes it was $3,000 if you worked it out to inflation and like when I went even farther back I was researching like some of the very first sewing machines that came out they were around two to three thousand dollars so if everyone thinks like oh I can't spend two to three thousand dollars on this machine but like that is the equivalent of what you're pointing people yeah and then the singer 501 was very an advanced machine for the 1950s it had backwards you know like that was like the thing that it did like you can have a reverse button like that just wasn't a thing before you know and it's crazy like you buy a $2,000 machine now things that occur 3,000 a presser foot low on its own it like you know you can embroider professionally all these Brewery and it's crazy so I think I think yeah you're right there's there definitely to get people in there and so many like I think just just a there's so many people in your family that probably have sewing machines that they don't use yeah like borrowing if people are out there like thinking what can I do I really want to learn how to do this I don't know or don't have the money like ask your mom or your grandma if you can borrow their machine if they're not an active solar which you know a lot of people are not an active solar they might have a machine that's just sitting around like collecting dust and to be honest that'll probably get them selling again when they see yeah sure thing no it's toys yeah and I think the other thing we talked earlier about permission in having you know giving people permission for you know men to come to retrieve something like that has store owners and I'm speaking for both of us but I give you permission to come in and ask us questions because you need to learn things and you know we get that all the time it's okay to ask questions yeah be it about machines about fabric about stitching and specific you know technique stuff sometimes we can help you sometimes we can but we want that like I want you to be happy or sewing because we're gonna come back it helps streeted new things you know like they're famous for their customer service you know ask anything you know you might have the answer you might not but you're always willing to try to help them if you can yeah and I know some quilt shops aren't as nice you know they're they're grumpier but find anyone yeah I'm somebody that will help you out you know us or email us all right you what's your email address I'll flash it on the screen at this point and admin and pink council fabrics calm yeah and it'll come to one of us that's something for us to answer you know what we get people that call all the time in half sessions you know I get I get phone calls all the time about sewing machines cuz we talk about them on YouTube where we talk about on our blog and they'll go into their local Janome dealer and they won't know about that machine because they've sold this other model for 25 years I saw the new us well cuz it's better we're different it means different but yeah it's it's interesting and they're like well thanks for the information I'm gonna go to my local viewing yeah as the sewing machine dealer would you like to see more models being easily sold online is that something you think would help people I think I think yes and no like some machines you need a lesson like if you buy a 15,000 Janome 15,000 first of all you're gonna spend around ten thousand dollars on it you need a lesson on that machine and something that we taken three lessons and I don't know every like I think in a service lesson on it I take it one the summer we took one there's so much so I mean I think for for a middle-of-the-road machine I think it's absolutely good with machines online not every machine is allowed to be so long really an interesting concept yeah I know you don't talk about that and I was like that's interesting and that makes like I see that everywhere now I'm like yeah like they're only selling these particularly and generally the models that you can get in store are better than the ones that are and the reason is is they really want you to come in and have the local dealer and and and as much as we love online we love online it makes life easier but if you completely cut out all of the local dealers you lose a big education portion to the industry that you don't have the same you can't call Amazon and ask them questions about the sewing machine that you bought on Amazon and I think that's the big thing is when you're buying a machine you're buying the dealer same thing with a car like there's a dealer in town we have two cars and one of them we're not going back there because they're just not nice to us there's other people to buy cars yeah the thing with machines you know if you can buy you know if you have question if you buy I mean if you're watching this you should absolutely come by a machine from us but we're gonna answer your questions and so wherever you go if it's not us great wherever you go it should be a place where you can have them take care of you because you're buying a major appliance and the very large purchase you know you should be able to get the support you need I think there are people in places out there that don't have online I like to see sewing-machine prices regulated and if you know this but there you can come to here you can come to another Janome dealer and you might have completely different pricing on the same machine and I really don't like that haggle mentality I think most of the world has gotten away from that like you can't go have a little thing and even cars I think you can a little bit this is the price new customer discount or you own this car or it's a lease conversion like they have a lot of that mapped out and it's very old-school it intimidates people when they have to have on price and speaking about gender in the industry it is the fabric world is largely owned by men but a lot of women I had because there's a lot of women designers and very probably in the sewing machine world it's more masculine later on and I think that sales tactic uh I have this price you have to know what you're getting you have to barter with me or go away and you know deal with somebody else is kind of weird and it seems kind of dated in that in a in a very predominantly female industry men are like the gatekeepers of the sewing machines and that doesn't make sense and I think - I mean it's definitely changing but but but I think that's a really strange thing like I don't think people realize like you can go into a dealer and haggle on the price of a sewing machine we do not do haggle prices I don't like that I just give you my load they're like this is everybody every guy every husband comes in and they're like is that your lowest price can you give me your lowest price the best deal what if I be good you can give me what if I thank you the same deal it's still going on my taxes but but like it's very it's very interesting that that that still exists and I think the more that we are able to do things online the more we'll see a price regulation like for example all the online machines through most of the dealers have a map price so you cannot go below this price if a dealer is telling you something below that price they're doing something illegal and if they're healers have taken away you know and they're because they're really trying to level the playing field otherwise if you do everything just online the people who have the most money to buy the most AdWords are always going to win just like with Amazon so you can buy the Amazon box and it's a bidding war and then anybody who has the most money for you take away a lot of opportunity for like the mom-and-pop shop which i think is the the fabric world is basically like the hook world in the 1990s where it's kind of consolidating and you have big box stores and it's really easy to say the lowest prices on Amazon by it but I can tell you what one of three stores you're buying it's not Amazon because they don't sell sewing machine yeah but you know you're buying it from a different store and those stores continue to get bigger and if they're taking care of you and answer your questions and giving you good customer service they deserve your money every not they don't and so I think people forget how much power they have in that equation they need to not do that otherwise you know name for bookstores you lose that option do you have any thoughts on like I'm I'll admit I'm a little bit of a lazy person in terms of shopping I do not like going to physical stores I prefer to shop online and I think there's like with this whole Amazon movement a lot of people are expecting to be able to get anything they want delivered at home without having to go anywhere how do you feel like the sewing machine industry can reach out more to those people that are they're never like let's let's be honest they're never going to go to a sewing machine dealer and purchase but you know they love shopping online how do you feel like the industry could could maybe try to reach out to them and get them to maybe purchase well and I think a lot of that is kind of already happening like we're trying to it takes a lot of time and effort to put together like videos and things like that we've done some videos in the past about you know slush machines and things like that and it really should come from manufacturing yeah you know the manufacturer should say like hey this is the brand new XYZ machine and these are this is the closest place to you or you know and I've seen this on some places where you could buy it from maybe Janome website and then it shipped from your local dealer there's a whole lot there the wholeness of reasons why that will work it won't work but you know um it's hard to it's hard to do things with all of the different like levels of where you can get things and really make it efficient and an affordable online like well some of those too I think is a question of like you can't have your car delivered to your house from Amazon like not everything should be purchased online and if your expectation is I'm buying pens and the pen just needs to be you know thick with bluing it doesn't really matter I know I know it pens look like but if you want to test drive a car you'd have to leave your house you know even if you're gonna buy TVs or something on Amazon that's a larger purchase but you know what like I know it brands I'm a go shop you have to have at least some of that idea figure out you won't know that until you do some pre-shopping at least see what I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years because you're right people are I'm Lindsay I will order something online if I can because then I don't have to take time out of my busy schedule to do the thing to do it's an inconvenience to go to the store we were supposed to have it easy there's more pressure than ever before like especially especially for you as parents uh I like there's so many there's just I feel like there's just too much stuff out there like that you're expected to do or that everyone feel like everyone else is doing I don't know like life is not simple like and now there is a movement I think for simplicity and I like that you know I do see people moving in that direction I'm definitely probably one of them but it does seem like in 2018 you're right like it's not like you know like didn't we envision the society where like no one had to work and ever you know you know everything was made for us you know and yeah everything was so productive machines were so productive no one had to do anything that's not true at all most of the time that I'm I'm just thinking about this the other end when a lot of the extra my time is eaten up by little things like this broke I have to go to eight steps remember how you should be able to call someone and someone would answer the phone they get just nothing just like the reordering Medicaid yeah beats like a half an hour of my time Jordan in traffic right it's there's a lot there's a lot of even in the in the simplicity like the trying to pare down to things and making it easy and cost-efficient kind of makes it more difficult to eat or do things sometimes like yourself check out oh my god it's an extra 15 minutes and then the scanner doesn't work the same for you as a user scanner as know if you watch sometimes when you go to a grocery store you go to a grocery store and you start scanning stuff you know the person if you we'll just scan item after item after item and they can do as fast as you want and you you have to wait for the light to turn green before you scan the thing otherwise doesn't scan its artificially slow and it's just not as convenient and then it's like requires you know requires manager like if you're buying Y or something you didn't you know it's not I had never there's too many things yeah yeah it's like yeah you're right it's not it's not like we've tried to like make it more efficient because then people want low-cost groceries right so you want a low-cost groceries but they have to do is they have to reduce - so now there's less jobs in that town so because they're not hiring as many people and then you as a customer is more frustrated - that's the cost of your low grocery your very cheap groceries are the worst I really I've meant really it was always an option not to use it I take it yeah I'll wait longer just so I can support that person stay no it's just a pain one thing I always try and look at - is there's a historical podcast I listen to and they go over a different periods of time and sometimes you listen to on and they go okay give you some back story we're talking about that 1920s and things are weird in the 1920s it kind of sets the scene and it's funny because when you listen to it he reminds you this is a transitional period of time this is not the way that it was thirty years before or thirty years later and so none of this really makes sense yet but you know before that they did it this way into the future they do it that way and I kind of look around at things and I try and remind myself this won't make sense to my son or his kids or whatever and it doesn't make sense to my parents were and there's so much change you know maybe in a hundred years everything will catch up and make more sense we'll be living in essence land but right now it's just weird like it's a hodgepodge what do you think sowing is gonna be like in say 25 years well I think I mean basically it's I think it'll continue to be just a hobby it'll be something that you don't have to do and and I think then that gives you a different you get you get different things that you make when it's a hobby versus something that you have to do because real listicle e we're not going to all go back to making your own clothes like is yes really it's not every German no it's like one of the things I hear is a comment on the channel is well they just don't teach home back in schools anymore it's like that is sad but I don't see us going back to the point where we're like it's like look we're not going back there so we have to move forward right like unfortunately kids are not gonna be taught to sew by their parents or school anymore yeah I think if you take the most if you take the most obvious solution off the table let's just put home AK back in school it's not gonna happen okay now what do you do and that's really the question that people have to look at but I think we have all these cool resources like I couldn't just google it you know like when I was a kid remember an event is you know we ended even when I was in college like I'm like like I couldn't just google it like I would have to go and look it up in a journal you know and then photocopy ten cents per copy like anything that I needed to take back to my dorm room and I use a box if you look up in an encyclopedia quilting there will be like one maybe two pages explaining what a quilt is where it originated some popular clothes here's a famous one from this year done it's not going to have even if you look up sewing terms probably won't have most so even then you could do it great you had to know you know it was it was knowledge we just kind of all passed down I mean think about like think about other things that like people do like soap making and candle making things like that this is all something that you you had to do you know like if you wanted to have so you would make the soap or somebody in your town would make this open and you would pay them for the soap and now it's it's a completely my gosh have you do I have you ever seen soap YouTube channels oh my gosh they're so addicting learn how to do it I have made soap a few times and it was crazy you know and then you think my whole being like to buy this chemical and like I have to do this with it but then you and then you have to like saponify ever now everyone's interesting that stuff up so all the soaps look super crazy oh my god well I think it's kind of funny though Liger that's inspiring that a lot of that knowledge no one needs to make so like someone in a factory somewhere is gonna make it but nobody needs to make it but there is a resurgence and people doing it because it's like a lost art and we'll how do you like I learn how to make beer because I was curious and was like I don't know what's involved and I feel like if I drink it I should know what it's doing with food you know we bought a kind of recently for sort of gone the grocery store he bought one of those cows for beef yeah yeah but it's interesting though because there's a lot of steps in it that I feel like you know maybe the people we work with they're like well where's your farm I have no idea like you're like and these questions where they look at you like this crazy like woody I call the guy and she knew a person and you know but it's it's funny because there's all these steps that I don't need to do that I have a grocery store but I feel like I should know about things you should know where your stuff comes from you know no word originated how it was made in people like there's definitely a disconnect between the things we have and how they got to us right and I think it's interesting because while the people sewing that the trend is you know we've had a little kind of going away and it's always changing it's not really a truly lost art like soap making is not as popular there's a long time that's not and I don't think so I will be I mean like I think we've headed down here in the last two years but it will go back up like it's just like everything else like people didn't really make quilts in the 70s you don't really see a lot of 1970s folks but it gave you got really popular that is cool in the 90s and now it's cool again so it's just one of those things like crap stitch was really cool and it wasn't cool you know it's cool again you know like it's you know it's hard to like keep the same hobby for your whole life like you know and even with quilting you know you you you can do quilting for 40 or 50 years but sometimes you just decide you wanted to learn something else you know like I'm constantly trying to pick up a new hobby that I don't have time for you know you're like well this still looks really fun and but I'm also one of those serious people that wants to know how everything works you know like you said beer and like with this soap making like you get into this like tunnel of the internet and you get we yeah it's like even if you don't do it you'll watch videos on it until until whatever and you're like like my husband spent date literally several days watching videos about welding has he done anything no but that did not stop him from watching which sounds two days straight videos about welding I think that's you know how much metal stuff is there around us how that works I feel like there's so many things it's such an amazing world and we don't were more worried about driving to work and is there traffic and all these stupid things are the reality of the future where at the same time I could go learn how to well on the internet for free exactly like the educational the good I think the good thing about being in 2018 the educational resources are vast and they're so they're mostly free if you like again I'm taking like a basically some free classes about learning about Adobe After Effects you know if this was 20 years ago I would have had to pay a few thousand dollars for like an infant I want artisan I paid for that class and you're like in your life I kind of learned the same stuff for free come on and all that information is outdated and you were in from like I I know how to use that perfect and in at the end of your class or whatever you're gonna know more than I did in my college degree like there it's not even like you're getting subpar knowledge you're getting that's just a bit of information now and what I got you know if my teacher was late one day maybe I learned Lots but I think also then that might occur you on to get a classic university or something like that you know like I get into like the whole of the internet and then I decide that I then want to take a class like even though I've got all of that information just having that permission for somebody standing in front of me just telling me like we've been to a sushi-making class about it as a Christmas gift and you know it's not that we couldn't have figured out on YouTube like you how to make sushi but just having somebody in front of you to be able to ask that question for like okay so research the surgeons at resurgence the whole surge of like the online class or you have an instructor that's giving you the class just being able to ask that question is more valuable than the free thing just like you you've got those options available to you but you know like I could learn all about wine by reading a book or watching some video or I could take a wine course where I could actually ask a question to the teachers Landing both are valuable you know one to four just with you know watching welding videos until two o'clock in the morning just as your curiosity but then you know maybe that turns into something more and you're like I saw this video about some new made metal metal sculpture and I think it'd be really cool to make one you know now you maybe go to a class on on I'm hoping that's kind of where everything starts hey yeah even if people don't do the thing that they're learning about I think it's just good to learn about learn more about whatever you can that's why I try to make my videos with entertainment purposes because I want people to look at it even if they don't sew or quilt they can watch it still enjoy it and get something out of it without having to feel like it's like a straight-up tutorial yeah you know and I think that's something that you know a lot we could do with in a lot of different areas so I know we talked about blogging a little while ago and about like Pinterest it does kind of feel like in this space there is a lot of like not competition I would say but like it seems like there are people like kind of trying to one-up each other and like how awesome do my photos look or like you know like how you know like how much I can do every day like I don't know it just feels like there's a lot of not pressure but like it's it's getting to the point where it doesn't feel aspirational to me it kind of feels like yeah oh my gosh like I don't know you're like this kid I'm gonna keep up with somebody like yeah then you do that's kind you feel that way sometimes I feel like you know I enjoy sewing and I don't have the time that I used to to be able to sew and you know we we've got other hobbies that we do like we started taking karate lessons you know and that takes up I have to give up some of my sewing time to go and work out you know um used to be that you know you could just post a picture on your blog from like your iPhone and now you're right it feels like it's a staged photo and it's got those little cell cords it's like now you have two professionals like people are taking professional photography on instead I think way too seriously like my gosh you don't need all of this well you don't and and I think some of it's living the dream you know we all want that Pinterest lifestyle like I all I look at Pinterest all the time and I think boy it would be cool if my house didn't have Legos all over the floor you know like it's just the way they yeah yeah won't happen kids in my house is you know not at all company and and this whole like idea of like like when I watch like HGTV house hunters I hate when people are like I really need this space for entertaining it's like how often do you really entertain right we're like are you having people like this isn't like we're not back in the day where people I'd like all these regular fancy dinner parties like where are you having people over that's what I wanna know there's an unofficial like first thing you say when some becomes of your place which is sorry about the mess yeah and there's also the unofficial response among all parents and we have kids too which you know it becomes pretty standard for like no don't worry about it you've been to my house you know but I feel like you know people do that last yeah I like to be the friend you don't have to feel comfortable with their people like you go to someone's house they like if this is so messy and I'm like this is your idea of messy like think I'm a total slob you're great like oh you're never coming over I'm like wow and here's the other thing I like so people like I feel like we're buying these you know big houses and people want to have like a guest room but it's like how often do you have people stay with you like it's like why not get a smaller place save the money and if you have friends coming to stay with you can't they get a hotel like yeah that's the other thing like people want these huge houses perfectly decorated I've never had that in my entire life like ever ever you know like we our house only looks good when we're trying to sell it right which yeah and I feel like you know a lot of that you just see on TV everybody's that big house like I forget the there's one article talking about like different TV living rooms and like how big that house must be for it to be that size or or the people that don't have salaries on TV to support like the house they've got you're like really and it happens all the time like two girls they have a gigantic butt they'd have like a gigantic living room oh yeah totally yeah I see I was like yeah that shows not like high drama it's not like everybody is you know going to that for life but you know a lot of the time that doesn't really add up and you don't think about it but it still says okay well maybe their houses that's not real my house only needs to happen well yeah but if that living room like Seinfeld was always just this gigantic place in New York by himself there's no way stand-up comedian it doesn't make any sense but if you're like well instead of a 5,000 square foot flat maybe I have a 2,000 square no you will not that's not going to be a thing let's I think it's just a it's hard because you want everything that you look your we're at me gravitate toward nice things you know we gravitate toward nice photos you gravitate toward you know glossy magazines them and I think it does give ii what with an unrealistic expectation but how many people are gonna like look at my Instagram feed it it's just like me with my hair unrushed in my sweatpants like standing next to my sink I wouldn't say I I like low-rent appeal of some stuff like that makes me like like like I watched jenna Marbles videos okay you can tell she like again and she she does not go over the top with that stuff like again her house is kind of messy I actually really appreciate that you know or I recently a friend of mine just started blogging he um he started this blog blog he's doing on Facebook where he looks for georgous like worst dive bars and his profile no his profile photo looks like it's like it's like a very like low quality photo of him with like super messy hair he does not nice for these things and you know what I freaking love it I think it's raining I think it's what the internet needs you know a dose of realness um you know like I feel like I personally gravitate towards people if I can relate to them I do not follow people that I'm like you know like that's that's just kind of fake you know like I don't know I feel like I feel like that genuineness and authenticity for me goes a long way and I would love to see more people especially in the sewing space do a little bit more of that like still make nice things but not like it used to you know like super over the TV it was a lot different seven years ago I mean I'm gonna not like the good old days but like you know when we still had Google readers like I feel like after Google Reader stops the whole blog thing change and it wasn't as easy to do and find new and exciting like quilters you know like I had like 250 blogs that I would read every day if they posted every day um I mean it would take a long time but it was interesting to me I mean this is pre Pinterest days so yeah I know you have to have like the most pin thing on Pinterest to be found like Pinterest graphic I think it's hard to find those people so and I think I think that's the difficulty is is maybe what we need is someone out there scouting the regular water like the good the good doing for fun you know like the people who are actually sewing for fun not as a business yeah you've got people that are still making scrapple so don't care if the fabric is you know comes out they it'll just tease you like I got a secret to tell you like and then it's a good innocent reading that's what I've told them to do you know like you see this a lot because there's these books that tell you like here's how you launch a product this is what you need to do this is the formula this is the size photo that you need to have on your blog so that it pins properly on Pinterest this is this like it's a lot of work to do that is it we used to be so much easier when you were just doing it for fun you know like you would be like guess what I made today and you take your shitty picture with your with your iPhone you know or and and just post it on the blog you know you don't get those like you know progress Hix like you used to unless I would like to see more like I like seeing the process I like seeing the nitty gritty you know I don't just like seeing the really pretty fake photos right putting out of the progress photos that you see now are just like here's the block that I made and I put a plant next to it appends I'm like give me a break people I don't know you keep that plant on your ironing board really it's just I think that it's too bad it's too bad because I love to see sewing become fun again and not I mean it's fine if you make a political quilt I'm all for that but it doesn't have to be political like it doesn't have to be any extra meaning in your you like you know I really like blue or I never write and don't use problems so I want to click rather than across certain looks look you know or you know it's cool to like test stuff out like that like I made it people don't like brown so I made a quilt with brown in it it sits in my living room I really like it you know like it's brown and red and I don't use those colors but I mix it in the teal and yellow and blue and all of these things that it looks great together you know like you're not getting these people experimenting I think a lot of the manufacturers aren't taking chances because the money isn't abundant right now so you're gonna see a lot of people tightening up and what that means is it's going to try it's going to be doing this rope formula like that has worked you're not gonna see these experimental things because they just don't have the money in time to do it they need the wins yeah it's like the film industry now everybody's buying a franchise they're only gonna make a movie if it's obscured bought like six or seven bucks like you couldn't do Game of Thrones 20 years ago but 20 years ago you have all these crazy cult movies that like everybody loves its movies you just couldn't do all that and do you feel like this whole new new like standard for blogging do you feel like this might discourage like I feel like it discourages people who might start a blog otherwise but they feel like there's wouldn't be good enough like no and I think it's okay well maybe some people think what's the point like I don't blog as much anymore because um well nobody reads it for one you know and what's the point in going out there and showing you the things that I'm making you know when I can take snap the photo on Instagram yeah in an Instagram got to the point where perfectly yeah where you're like in it and I'm like really and I'm just and now I'm kind of gotten away with like I just don't show people pictures because I don't have a light in my face that that's good enough like and I was you know I was thinking you don't have all those fake plants and your ironing board grind MJC could set up the photo shoot staging with all the abundant free time right sure if that's the thing is like and I don't have time to sit there and all the photos like because yeah it's a lot of work and like with YouTube the thumbnail is the thing that's like the most important so I thought yeah I have to spend a lot of time on the thumbnail because that is you know one of the most important things about it which is silly but if you don't no reason--watch in the first place what's the point it's it's sort of you know I'm just full of analogies today but like when it becomes so unattainable and there's so much process that goes into it it's not really worth investing the time because am I gonna do it better than them or even though you don't see you know on the web on the internet you see you people starting websites all the time because it doesn't cost much it's pretty easy to do and so that's something that happens to like you don't see new car manufactures all this I'm not gonna make a better car than pick your grant for being you know come up with that that really nice 2000 dollar car here it doesn't great it's okay I think maybe we need to give people permission to just post what they're doing yeah but unfortunately like if you look at the algorithms and things like that was like Instagram like they just won't show the photo if it doesn't have enough points like there's just a lot of things that you don't do chronological posting anymore so you think if I wanted to follow you they may or may not show me your photos like you know even Facebook is getting like that too like people have you noticed like the stuff people post on Facebook now is like very curated like ready and it was like my personal post like I will talk about something in and certain things just get kind of like disappear no one sees them and it might be important or it might be something interesting you know you see ideas great it's Joe's wix.com ads for every website everybody wants me to make a week's web yeah I know that's like every other ad on YouTube it's like hi I'm right and link and I'm gonna show you an ability or free it'll take you two seconds yeah good for you and good for that and you we don't all have to have a website you know like it's okay to just feel like it's okay to just do the thing ya have to be in charge you don't have to show people the thing you can you can just do it you can just do the thing and like a lot of people will feel pressure you know um like you said to make so much just make what you have time for you know like don't you don't have to like don't get to do a quilt a week like some of the bank when you see on Instagram where you like wow like they got more time then and they're like I have five kids and I'm like how are you still alive right like I don't understand like from from talking to people with children especially young kids they really point out a lot of the the challenges that are involved in trees and trying to so like kid gets too close to the iron or you know they wake up from a nap time you know it's all over right anything dawn yeah but it's okay like guys like some people you don't even have like I was like Goodreads today and and like it they're like okay what's your 2018 book challenge like how many books doin I'm not gonna challenge myself to do like wanna read when I don't I use the challenge like this like obviously we all we all say we want to sell more you want to read or we want to work out more but like then as soon as you say that you've got that pressure on you like just do what you have to do when you feel like you really want to you know I'm trying to eat better doesn't mean I have to run a marathon right definitely don't I'm naturally good I'm not going to well when I was talking to that guy about the the dive bar vlog which I really think he's onto something he's hilarious you know he had a good attitude he's like you know if it starts to feel like work he's like I'm just not gonna do it anymore right I love seeing P and I feel like it's those people who are gonna be successful at it because they don't they don't feel like they've got that pressure you know that ones that are like you know I'm just really doing this for fun and this guy is I'm telling you he's a like he started posting stuff yesterday and I was I was dying like just like when you when you someone's posting stuff that every time you see a post from them you get excited and you're like well what are they doing now yeah yeah like the newsletter came I have to read want you to call it and see the latest yeah and I don't I don't do a newsletter for so in your port like do like I think people get email updates if I like post something but I I don't like do like a weekly thing I don't know like I just don't feel like I have anything to say in these things I know and not everybody needs literally just because there's a language to how you have a website doesn't mean it's the same for ya marketing company we dealt with and they said you have to do this this this and this and we said I don't want to make my customers click twelve times to get to the fabric guys you know not everything works for everybody now if you want somebody's email address you've gotta give them a free free ebook and then they have to like give you their email address in and that's like the formula in their offer it's like offer free downloadable it's like the better bro what is what is what yeah I don't need a thing with its it's really an interesting concept the way that marketing and I think it stems from how do I get people to see my thing you know when we had Google Reader you would have like the blog circles and like the things like that and they just don't have any really how do you get people to just read your content that you're doing for fun you know like and maybe you don't care if anybody reads it you feel like the same marketers ruin everything is - yeah right sometimes yeah I mean as a marketer probably but you know it's always like the next challenge is how do you get people to see your stuff and I think I want its thing that this is which is why the manufacturers are getting out bundles of three fabric who have lots of followers and then those people get more followers because they are the ones that get a every but then you get the fabric and you see the quilts that everybody's made that look just the same because they're making it with just that fabric you know you don't get that really sort of like wow I really like what you did there I wouldn't have thought of putting you know this purple with this color you know it was with people love like oh I didn't know that the blue it makes it bit more interesting and then they love looking at those and say this color matches that I ever want to put those together but the colors like we do a bunch of custom bundles where we go into the store and we go I really like this color and it's got this other one in it where can I find that color walking through the store got all the prints and you get a completely different project when you use like any more you know bundles or stash boxes any of those and you know it looks very different than when you just go I'll take the latest whatever I'll take the latest fat quarter bundle from you know whatever it may be it's good to have those but yeah you don't have to use them together because I make quilts that are scrap filled and sometimes if I like the full collection I make a quilt with the full collection I think it's okay to take prints out you know what yeah I usually buy the prints that I like from the collection but usually in a collection I don't like everything yeah it's really hard to like everything in a collection because of the way that the whole process works yeah you know and sometimes like the color just doesn't come out right you know like you're trying to communicate to a company that's trying to communicate to another company that's communicating to the middle so there's four different people that like telephones two languages yeah so it's really it's really kind of a miracle that fabric turns out the way that it does after all of the different people that touch it you know it's it's a long process but you know it's I think it's really kind of a disservice to the industry that you don't have people that are really just like I'm doing this for fun here's what I made this we never need more of those folks the ones that nobody's paying me for this yeah I didn't get any of this fabric for free and put it in you know like and those are the types of people there are people that do that which would be more there should it's too bad that there's or that those people aren't being brought to the forefront like there used to be modern-day quilts like Heather grant who now works for the who killed she used to have a blog and every day she just show off somebody's book that somebody made that she just liked like it was so cool like you know in that could it was just like it I just like this you know it's kind of like a curated Pinterest board but there was no Pinterest you know but it wasn't so not even like here's all the blue multi masters this was neat I've never seen anybody do this that hard yeah and now you could stumble upon a new quilt water you know we need to talk about all of those Pinterest links where it's like here's 50 easy sewing projects and one of them are there is like it's all like like all they do is take is basically take other people's content and vomit it out read it yeah and that seems kind of in or inauthentic to me a little bit like I mean I've clicked on those two but like if if most like I appreciate the bloggers who at least if they do that most of the tutorials are there's no I'm kind of getting tired of seeing like you know 25 things you can sew in an hour clickbait yeah and it's in its and it's not like they're not even really content creators the more just like hunting gatherers but you went to their site and they got a nipple cuz you showed up yeah and and you and like 500 million other people like just tons of people and get it works because right and and I it's yes somebody's doing that to make money and not because they're because they're not because I'm trying to really get helpful information ya know just because it's like hey you know and then every every time you want to see one of the other projects it's like a new page and I'm like come on I don't want to click 50 times to get to something I just leave those sites because a lot of the leaks are not they're broken yes like they're dead links like I I like Pinterest for some things I like looking at the photos on there all in but I hate that like at least half of the things you click on yeah don't work like they need to they need to do a better job I mean they can't click every single link but maybe you could go to links down and if you have more than whatever percent of broken links to just go away it helps nobody yeah I was trying to click on stuff yesterday and like it's like goes nowhere and it's like why I don't want to just see the picture I want to see other stuff yeah it's just not happening I don't know Pinterest uh I don't know and people are all over Pinterest and I I go there occasionally but I don't really like it's one of those things it's like you have to go there but you don't like going there yeah I enjoy it still yes well we first started I enjoyed it a lot more and I was pinning just for myself and I still have a personal interest page feel free to follow me it's just a bit frayed and I don't pin my personal stuff it's just the stuff that I like did you know that you actually enjoy not like you're nuts the self concentrate I didn't I didn't curate any Pinterest boards to make money and just did it stuff that I like I think I have like two thousand quilts that I like on report some of them are duplicates because I liked them twice like you know I don't go through and adjust anything but then when I do want inspiration I do go back to it like the whole concept of blogs and Pinterest and social media great and I think there's definitely ways that we can go out get back to the whole like let's do this type thing you know a couple years ago we couple friends of mine and I decided we were just gonna make a strap built for fun and we took enough free online tutorials scrappy trips around the world and one of my friends I started making that quote at the same time and someone else not knowing about it unless to seeing someone else's and they must have seen somebody else's like and so then it kind of got to this whole things if you look at hashtag scrappy trips around the world or scrappy trip along that's what the hashtag is on Instagram there's like thousands and thousands of people who I've seen I I've always wanted to make one of those it looks like fun it looks like it's easy but like but it was kind of cool like organic movement that went viral it's now being a brand really trying to like people are trying to like plan out these hashtags like right everyone using and it was just kind of like a perfect storm than how it happened there's no way you could ever recreate it yeah like it was there was no pressure it was just for fun it was just like I got inspired by something you got inspired by something you know everybody just got inspired by something any money up nobody need anybody it was there was no profit it was just for fun you know I wish I wish there was like so here I I do have some beef with some of like the traditional blogging ways of making money I feel like I wish there was a different business model around that besides this whole besides just like the whole like you know you get you get sponsors from people and working friends like you know I don't know like because it seems like you get people all promoting the same thing at the same time everyone's using the same fabric line and you're like okay you know there we go I guess this is coming out all right yeah it's like they have got the blog tour thing I would love to see like more people being able to make at least some side income from it but maybe in a different way so that people could have some more like freedom of expression without feeling like they've gotta with it being a little less commercial it has to come from the water I think they think you you can accept free things and I think that's okay but you with the caveat of I'm gonna do this I want you know like I've offered my favorite to people and if they say that you know like just as long as they're honest with me and they just say like okay I'm not gonna make this I'm not gonna make something just this you know I'm like that's fine or I'm not going to give you a glowing review because you gave this to me for free and I think that's on the bloggers like they have to say look I will accept said product or money but I will give an honest opinion and then they have to follow through and actually give an honest and not worry about what the brand is gonna think we're not worried about will I get more free blank or you know if you're signing about like citing public there's not people that there are people who are accepting free fabrics or a blog post it gets not something that you want then you have to go and say like I don't do blog posts or product you know yeah exactly this is my feet well and also that kind of ways down the whole that whole space because then if you get like we were talking about this if you get people working for free then no one will actually pay you like which is I think that's another real big problem of people you know so we go to quote market every year where you go and you buy all the fabric for the year we go twice a year and so you go and may look at all different fabrics here's what's coming out in October November and when you get there a lot of the stuff that's made for us and its wholesale customers y'all the samples and stuff when you go there you look around and there's all these different quotes and you can see oh this is what it looks like quilted ah I didn't like the friend but now that it's both it looks great and it features just--all in the collection and it was made by some famous water most likely for free pay for work but and I think that that is something that's not said which one companies pay in which and if you're if you're making a whole quilt for a sample you should be getting paid real money like that's yes like that is not something you should be doing for free that's I I think that it's getting better I think I'm starting to like request money uh you know and that's all fine and good you know II do need people to make samples like there's like we need to make samples for our top I have fabric lines I always try to make obviously I don't wanna pay if I could get it for free but like you know responsibly yeah you but you understand it all you understand the business side to write it you know and and like so in my last couple lines I'm usually one that made some because I just don't guilty like giving people free things for you know like to make things with it you know and I think that's like the the big issue is a lot of people aren't getting paid enough to pay other people you know everybody thinks these fabric designers are the hog and they're not you know you're you're making like pennies per yard sold and everyone's like well they're selling a million yards normally your game clothes don't think hundreds of yards like you know you said would that be considered like a successful fabric rod like what I think if you make if you make around like twenty four hundred bucks I think that's a pretty successful okay which is by some of the more successful ones maybe they're doing two or three times that and they have three flex here and they can they got to do other stuff they've got to teach they've got a read books they've got the blog they've around it who's successful because they have like revenue streams minimum and every one of those there's new releases I have a new thread collection through this brand and then it kind of gets broke because you get into the rut of like okay this one that last time this didn't work so I need you do it this way and then you kind of see the same thing over and over and over and over again because if you want to truly do this as a living you have to do all of those things that it gets tiring and you get hurt out and I think it's disappointing cuz like if you read business books and you look at the way business is supposed to happen you're supposed to find your niche and go with that like that is like the formula for a great business is to just do one thing and do it really well no you can't be a great teacher author a great fabric designer a great you know quilt maker put your quilts and quilt shows and make your own Pinterest page and your Instagram know you're not gonna be yeah exactly you're you're gonna kind of spread yourself in I do think the people who are doing the pattern selling the patterns I think that's kind of smart because at least that's a form of like passive income yeah you know you only have to do it once and then you couldn't you know like it's not like something like where you have to keep writing new books at least you don't you don't you don't have to keep writing new pattern but you do have to keep making it in current account that's Jim that's Joe and I got time a good discussion with one of my friends as a pattern designer and they said I'm tired of seeing patterns come into the shop that have a line of fabric that they got for free on the front of the pattern because now as soon as outline of fabric is have say that pattern is passe you know if you make it a scrap folder put whatever you wanted in it then there didn't there's always something that you could find it similar to it but if it's a legit like this is my line of fabric like you're gonna have to be do it especially that fabric is no longer available anymore than people are like they can't you get you get people and I think I have my own thing with patterns there's way too many pattern designers there's a lot yeah they're so it seems like every and that's the thing III have absolutely no plans to ever design or sell my own patterns that's not my thing but yeah you're right there's there's almost like too many people doing it she looks like you can't get any market share because everyone has a pattern line now right and and not all of them are good like I was reading through a pattern with what customer and it was not the easiest way to put the pattern together and this was a big pattern designer like who does make a living with their pattern and it was like it wasn't the easiest way to do the thing that you had to cut out like a hundred and five pieces oh geez we're very very small where you could just strip have done that instead of doing that and and also some of the indie patterns are kind of pricey too especially when you compare comparative big for the big four and I also have a sale for a dollar ninety-nine and then there's a similar indie pattern for $14.99 and you're like I think the good thing about the in deep a turns is I think they give you more instruction yeah usually no and they of the people especially with garment the bigger in the garment pattern makers do a really nice job of following it up with content to help you like look at us so long and ever since so long we don't have video or like they'll have like a like Sara Lawson has the video instruction which i think is a really smart idea because then you're able to get like I have a hard time making a nine dollar 99 footballs dress there's really not a whole lot of options out there for that specific pattern for me plus they've got so much the catalog is so big that did it you know it kind of it's it's a very overwhelming experience trying to go by patterns that way they don't always fit my body type you know and that's the thing is like you know the model you might see one model like showing you that they may not have this she's a size two thank you and I don't know that I was ever assigned to you know but you know it's just one of those things where I like the independence and I'm not bragging on people who want to be a boat pattern designer like especially in the quilting world there's just so many while trying to this is a consumer there's only so many patterns in fabric you can buy like right you know again we only have so much time in quilting is something unlike garments quilts often take a lot longer to do right and you're not necessarily always making missing quilt more than one guy I tried don't know that I mean I made like the same full more than one time like two times you know like I'm interested in a nooner to do something different for the next one and you buying a twenty dollar quilt pattern that you use once yeah like sometimes I usually stick with like the free blocks or like the real simple designs where it's like these are just triangles green yeah but really where you're getting that like so like let's talk about then again like stitch a lot like when we have this stitch a lot like you might have access to that the type of pattern or theme it were doing in that in the class but the tips that you learn from the people who've been doing it for a really long time are invaluable yeah yeah I know how to thread a needle of any you know you like the needle not the thread right stupid stuff I learned that from Sarah fobian Australia I wouldn't okay get the needle wet because when you put the thread into the needle the meniscus which is like the membrane in fabric yeah even bring up your spit well actually as soon as the fabric touches it grabs it and pulls it through as opposed to if you have the weather you gotta put it through it's like limpid wolf yeah you're licking the needle alright don't have to try that the next time I don't know what we learned that I learned that from a fabric designer from a whole other cut because I because it worked but because I showed up to the retreat you don't get that out of a pattern nobody is gonna later hey cuz that's silly but if you ask the question how are you able to do that or you just watch bring it you can learn a lot of things that way and in a better rhythm pattern I think I think the events are very valuable the patterns are valuable and I read a lot of patterns just to see how people do things like I will buy a pattern and never make it I'll just read it but that's just me and I'm curious and I own a fabric store so I have a lot more access to being able to read books without you know and then I can sell them later or something like that you know but it's just interesting the way people do things like you can learn applique for example from three different people and they will each give you some new tip you know like and now your applique is three times better because you've got three times the tips that you could do it and it a lot of times when we do the retreats I learn things from the other students as well you know and the teachers are learning tricks from students like that whole I feel like the classes are not going to go away and especially with like work and not the social aspect of sewing because you do get a lot out of I think being with people and in like joining a quilt you like our chrome killed like we do classes and give you events and we do like sew ins once a month then we do retreats and stuff like that like you know just that type of like camaraderie is invaluable or like we'll do a skill school every meeting so for your $35 dues that you spend for the year you get a new skill once a month now and you're gonna get out of three bedrooms right yeah I mean realistically I use for patterns worth of money you know if a pattern is about ten dollars so I don't I don't I mean there's need to have patterns you just don't know you need to have a hundred we need to have like fabric we just don't need to have twenty collections from a designer a year you know it's too much you know it needs to come just go back to be a for fun thing you don't have to do things for political reasons unless you want to and then it's okay you don't have to make a felt and even show it to anybody it is okay to make something that is just for you you do not have to have a blog you do not have to have an Instagram account you can be an Internet place I guess not like troll but like you can just give me a lurker and not longer looking out and be a lurker it's okay like these are all things that like you don't have to participate in things you don't want you you can follow a quote so long and not make the quote it's okay to do that you know like um I did that a couple summers ago I was like I just love this pattern I don't want to make it I just like you just like read yeah you just like seeing other people do it and reading about you know how to make it no I get that that's cool it's it's crowded I think just giving people the permission to just chill out yeah that is such a good are yeah yeah so the message of this overall conversation from Brenda Ratliff chill out people don't take yourself so seriously like chill out relax have fun it's okay for it to be hobby in exactly well it's been such a pleasure talking to you both I'm so Lee I'm so glad we got to do this and guys I know this has been a bit of a longer video but hopeful to you in Brenda Jason where do you want people to check you guys out online run we should definitely doesn't go to our website it will be new probably by the time this video works wonderful wonderful and of course the social media you know Instagram Facebook you guys are all over the place you've you to clean on yep we do have a YouTube channel as well yes videos thank you thank you again for doing this and for for spending the afternoon with me I really appreciate it and thank you guys so much yeah thank you alright see you guys next time alright see ya you dissertation fellowships wiki 2018 film Cazenovia College, Cazenovia.